Hawker Hunter F.1 (Early R.A.7) with actual FM data

[Crag_r 8,620]

So im sure many of you would hear Hunter and simply think "nooo too OP" or outside the games time. However the Hunter F.1 with the R.A.7 does not follow that suit fortunately. This is just to see the communities thoughts on the matter before i put in a suggestion on it. 

 

 

Well first things first. We are talking about the 20 or so initial production F.1's sometimes referred to as the pre-production F.1's. First flying in March 1953 and in service by early June of that year for evaluations. With the main production F.1's coming online in mid 1954. So the cut off is not applicable for these F.1's in particular. (So don't event think of telling me wiki says this 1954) Note that these F.1's for the topic have the earlier R.A.7 Avon engine not the later Mk Avon 113 R.A.7's on the F.1 with additional fittings and modifications to increase the performance slightly. This Avon engine does not have afterburning like the R.A.7R with reheat on the F.1 (later F.3) that went on to set the world speed record, for info on the R.A.7R you can look here, but im not asking for those...

 

So what of its performance? Well according to this Document provided by RAF testing and published on the 1st of June 1953 kindly found by Razielkaine & his RAF museum friend goes a little something like this;

 

(Primary source from initial RAF testing)

 

Early F1 Serials courtesy of Celeste

 

So lets highlight the main stuff.

Performance; at 16,350lb's (7.416kg's)

At Alts;                0ft-0m                              40,000ft-12,192m               45,000ft-13,716m

Max Speed;        598knots-1,107km/h          532knots-985km/h              524knots-970km/h

Rate of climb;     7,400ft/min-37.6m/s           2,250ft/min-11.4m/s            505ft/min-2.6m/s

Climb time          -                                         8min . 33sec                       11min . 39 sec

(Climb to 49,500ft; 14min 24 sec)

 

Turn radius;      1,828.8m                             4846.3m                              7452.4m

At speeds;         538knots                            479knots                             471knots

At G's                4.37G                                 1.63G                                  1.29G

 

Operational ceiling at 16,350lb's; 45,900ft

(maintaining a 1,000ftmin climb)

Cruise ceiling been 47,400ft

Max ceiling been 49,500ft

 

 

Shooty stuff

4x ADEN Cannon; Fires a 30x113mm 220g round at 790 m/s at 1,200 rounds per minute. With 150 rounds per gun.

 

That gives a total rate of fire 4800rpm and a through weight of close to an astonishing 17.6kg/s for 7.5 seconds. The let down there been slower velocity of the round compared to its counterparts. And it does not appear to be able to carry external ordinance.

 

This gun has a less rate of fire and MV then the US M39 cannon, however the ADEN does fire a high capacity 30mm round as oppose to the M39's 20mm round. The gun is comparable to the French DEFA cannon which has a slightly smaller rate of fire but a greater muzzle velocity.

(Hunter and its Gun pack)

 

So whats that mean for its competition?

 

Max Speed;

Hunter F.1; 1,107km/h

MiG-15bis; 1,059km/h

F-86F-25; 1,106km/h

 

Thrust/Weight;

Hunter F.1; 0.46

MiG-15bis; 0.54

F-86F-25; 0.38

 

Wing loading;

Hunter F.1; 48.1lb/ft

MiG-15bis; 49.3lb/ft

F-86F-25; 49.4 lb/ft

 

Rate of climb at Sea Level;

Hunter F.1; 7,400ft/min

MiG-15bis; 10,080ft/min

F-86F-25; 9,000ft/min

 

Seems pretty good to me, maybe under-performing a little in its rate of climb but it will accelerate a bit better then a Sabre and its guns will bring the lol's.

 

So is it needed and where will it go? First off YES. Britain is the only nation to be left without a top jet currently. And ideally it would go on top of the Hawker line to ideally look something a bit like this (thanks LB95)

(assumed Sea fury position)

 

Ideally the Hunter and Swift can sit at the top BR, the Venom comes in close but with the versions that flew in the games time it might be lacking. Therefore having Britain having 2 top jets (like most of the other nations) would require the Hunter. With the Commonwealth Sabers been possible but i don't think is the best of ideas for the time been.

 

And as a whole the top tree been possibly something like this https://sc-cdn.scaleengine.net/i/3b2f4f66f9e4bcc35a5d4d79c660517a.png as done by LB95

(Sea Hawk, Swift, attacker, Venom, CAC-27 and Canberra not added yet, only the Sea Fury is planned for 1.41 and the Sea Meteor is currently in the Meteor line)

 

TL:DR - Gib Hunter F.1 with the R.A.7 engine. It fits perfectly in game performance wise, it fits perfectly in game time line wise and Britain really REALLY needs it. - Lets see what you guys think.

[_Haydn_ 5,476]

GIB NOW

[Spitfire_ 7,306]

[Spoiler]  [/Spoiler]

 

 

Yes, making the  UK actually worthwhile playing for the high end.

[Blaf37427 304]

Yes please :)

[Razielkaine 4,876]

I would definitely love to see this game in my line up. a beautiful plane and a well balanced top tier plane.

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

This plane in the current situation would be a massive benefit. considering 20 pre-production model F1s were ready in March of 1953, its also fully justified as far as the games rulings goes. 

 

 

Id like to keep an eye on this if i may, I believe this has potential to be the Hunter "Suggestion" thread we need to pass on.

[AussieGhost789 1,106]

Dont forget the CL-13 in the OP comparisons. (if anyone's actually managed to find data without drop tanks? Either way, currently, at SL the Canadair can do 1112km/h IAS in game. Not sure what it can do at its optimal altitude.)

[Crag_r 8,620]

Dont forget the CL-13 in the OP comparisons. (if anyone's actually managed to find data without drop tanks? Either way, currently, at SL the Canadair can do 1112km/h IAS in game. Not sure what it can do at its optimal altitude.)

 

I had a site awhile ago i might go digging around for. Anyway the Canadair Mk.5 should actually be slower then an F-86F due to the nose, intake and forward fuselage modifications to fit the new engine causing a bit more drag.

[AussieGhost789 1,106]

I had a site awhile ago i might go digging around for. Anyway the Canadair Mk.5 should actually be slower then an F-86F due to the nose, intake and forward fuselage modifications to fit the new engine causing a bit more drag.

Well, it's a slightly wider intake, but it's compensated by its more powerful engine.

[Danb24 178]

That'd be a great idea and if they do then hopefully they'll model its distinctive sound. 8)s

 

http://youtu.be/rchC7XBngyI

 

 

The Swift is also a contender.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Danb24

[Helezhelm 10,626]

MiG15bis can still compete with F86F just fine, you're probably bad pilot. Besides, MiG15bis still retains superior climb rate and acceleration plus better performance in high alt. 

Anyway, I support Hawken Hunter F.1 and Supermarine F.1 as top tier jet. Venom FB.1 should be added after Vampire Fb.5. Attacker/Sea Hawk should be added later. 

Edited May 5, 2014 by Helezhelm

[LB95 6,206]

Ah, you found it, good to see you made a thread on this, and used my thrown together tree, thanks.

 

We need to push for this stuff, right now, Britain is pointless. The only good props are the Tempests, and they get assblasted by 163's all day long... Not even gonna go into the state of the top tier. The Meteor F.8 is good, but nothing compared to the sabre/mig, if said aircraft's pilot knows what he's doing.

 

 

Also:

This gun has a less rate of fire and MV then the US M39 cannon, however the ADEN does fire a high capacity 30mm round as oppose to the M39's 20mm round. The gun is comparable to the French DEFA cannon which has a slightly smaller rate of fire but a greater muzzle velocity.

 

The ADEN had a rifled barrel, so the shells were more accurate out to a longer range than the DEFA and M39's

Edited May 5, 2014 by LB95

[Marrond 5,711]

Do want! It can come bundled with Venom (besides if Venoms within timeline were inferior we could bend the rules to get one past timeline that fits by performance afterall it's all about balance .  :good:

 

 

Sooo... where do I sign?  :dntknw:

Edited May 5, 2014 by Marrond

[Private_Padolski 991]

You got my yes. 

 

Would love to see this as the British only get one series of flyable jet and a brick called the vampire.

[Waroch 2,008]

The ADEN had a rifled barrel, so the shells were more accurate out to a longer range than the DEFA and M39's

 

 

And what makes you think others were smoothbore? Actually, from the DEFA type 552 on even the chambers are rifled to further increase accuracy.

The ADEN had worse ballistics, i.e. inferior effective range, more projectile drop and worse accuracy compared to the DEFA 550 series.

 

That being said, what we may have in WT is the DEFA Type 541, which had a MV of around 600m/s and shot heavier shells with ~70g HE (~50g HE for the later ammunition used by both the ADEN and the DEFA 551 and later).

[Helezhelm 10,626]

That's the entire problem. Flying brick. And it takes forever to get to altitude because of the stupid overheating.

 

You should know that MIG15bis isn't that maneuverable in high speed due to lack of all-flying tail and hydraulic controls. Which it is historically correct in WT as "flying brick at high speeds." and also they didn't solve compressibility problems at high speed via maneuvering until MiG19. 

About overheating, I think that is correct if you don't use 100% throttle all times since 100% is technically 113% at right now. My suggestion to avoid overheating your engine is to reduce your throttle to 90% and use 100% at emergency time. 

Edited May 5, 2014 by Helezhelm

[LB95 6,206]

And what makes you think others were smoothbore? Actually, from the DEFA type 552 on even the chambers are rifled to further increase accuracy.

The ADEN had worse ballistics, i.e. inferior effective range, more projectile drop and worse accuracy compared to the DEFA 550 series.

 

That being said, what we may have in WT is the DEFA Type 541, which had a MV of around 600m/s and shot heavier shells with ~70g HE (~50g HE for the later ammunition used by both the ADEN and the DEFA 551 and later).

 

I literally can't find anything on the DEFA that said it was rifled, yet it's quite explicitly said on the ADEN that it's rifled. You have a source?

[Waroch 2,008]

I literally can't find anything on the DEFA that said it was rifled, yet it's quite explicitly said on the ADEN that it's rifled. You have a source?

 

Not in english language. If you can read technical documents in french, there's a detailed history of the development of the DEFA gun in one of the COMHART books.

 

That is, if you really need a source telling you that two guns developped at the same time with a common origin and using the same ammunition are both rifled...

 

 

EDIT : COMHART vol. 8.2 to be precise.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Waroch

[doriedd 396]

Here are my thoughts on Hawker Hunters;

 

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIhTsA4vPj8[/media]

 

HNNNNNGGGGGG

 

That honk.

 

That Vwoosh.

 

Make it premium prices if you must, but get it in the game.

 

(I know the video isn't an F.1 but I was at that show and that sound haunts my sleep.)

[Bigyin13 1,213]

You have a yes from me. It's a shame Britain is currently a moot point when it comes to jet combat, here's hoping this makes its way into the game along with some other favourites. ;)s

[Superxpdude 139]

The Hunter is desperately needed right now, along with a reduction of the BR of the Meteor F.8. I rarely see any tier 5 British in the queue these days because they're simply not competitive enough right now. The Hawker Hunter would fix that.

[ledinis 543]

Looks like it would be better than both sabre and mig, but since the difference is marginal and it would give back some life to the UK tree i vote yes. Either this or supermarine swift mk.1

Edited May 5, 2014 by ledinis

[Bansho 1,386]

I approve of Hunter F.1, you got my vote

[IABTxMio 635]

You know, I was actually previously VERY much against this plane being added in the game, but seeing how the game has changed and developed, it actually fits a place now, it more than fits a place even. I'm hoping Gaijin allow every nation to get every plane possible like this within reason, this could definitely work, I have to say, I'm surprised I was actually eventually swayed but, it is beta, things do change, and as it stands, the direction the game is going in cries out for this plane, and for notable other nations in certain other tiers.

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

Going to add this thanks to Bigyin for finding LB's older post on the ADEN if the devs need the info.

 

Remember the ADEN is currently not modeled in game yet, so info will be needed as well:

 

http://www.aei-systems.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Aden30mm-Mk456.pdf

 

Edit:

 

Extras:

 

http://www.germanmanuals.com/images/TheMGV3d.pdf

 

http://www.hawkerhunter.com/6787/index.html