Tanks/Vehicles Chieftain British MBT (1965)

[ValkyrieLitewing 1,659]

About the Chieftain:

 

 

 

And in 1966, when it entered service, the Chieftain was, indeed, the most formidable main battle tank in the world. The Chieftain's rifled Royal Ordnance L11A5 120 mm (4.72 in) gun was specifically tailored for it, and also became the new NATO standard caliber. Its cross-country speed was better than that of the Centurion, and it could maintain it longer than the lighter Leopard I. The Chieftain also had the best protection of the time. The Chobham armor became a milestone in tank protection development. 

 

Developement:

 

 

 

The Chieftain originated from a British Leyland design of a new tank, dating as early as 1950, when the War Office requested a replacement for the Centurion...The Centurion itself was not seen as ideal in firepower since the arrival of Soviet heavy tanks armed with 120 mm (4.72 in) guns like the IS-3 and following models up to the T-10. The British Conqueror heavy tank (1955) tried to respond with a high velocity, long 120 mm (4.72 in) gun, but not surprisingly failed on the mobility aspect. The next tank had to have a heavier gun on a more mobile package. 

 

The Different versions of the Chieftain:

• The Mk.1 (1965) first batch of 40 pre-production vehicles was so underpowered that the all lot was quickly reaffected for training duties.
• The Mk.2 (1967) were fitted with a more powerful 650 hp engine.
• The Mk.3 was fitted with additional equipments, dry-air cleaner element, modified No 15 Mk 2 commander cupola, upgraded engine and gave birth to Mk 3/2 (Improved electrical equipment and air cleaners), Mk 3/3 (ER RMG, laser rangefinder, 720bhp engine & modified NBC pack), Mk 3/3P (Iranian version), Mk 3G (Prototype with turret air-breathing for engine aspiration), and the Mk 3S (Mk 3/G with turret air-breathing and commander's firing switch).
• The Mk.4 were two prototypes with increased fuel capacity and other minor modifications.
• The Mk.5 (1970) was the final production (based on the 3/3) version with a new 850 bhp engine and improved NBC protection (turret bustle).
• The Mk.6 (1979) was an upgraded version, a Mk 2 rebuilt to Mk 5 standards. All previous tanks were fitted to this new standard which introduced Clansman radios and many other improvements.
• The Mk.7 was a Mk 3 rebuilt to Mk 5 standards. The 7/2c was supplied to Oman.
• The Mk.8 was a Mk 3/3 rebuilt to Mk 5.
• The Mk.9 was essentially a Mk.6 fitted with IFCS. including the fitting of new Clansman radios.
• The Mk.10 (1985) were Mk.6 and Mk.7 fitted with IFCS & Stillbrew. The Stillbrew crew protection package was applied to the turret front and ring and became the new standard.
• The Mk.11 (1988-1990) were Mk.8s fitted with IFCS, Stillbrew, No 11 NBC system, and TOGS. The TOGS (Thermal Observation and Gunnery System) was manufactured by Barr and Stroud and was completed by the addition of a laser range-finder.

Now obviously, we won't see anything above the Mk.2 if we do at all.

 

Pictures:

Prototype (FV-4201)

Chieftain Mk.1

Chieftain Mk.1

Chieftain Mk.2

(From left to right: Conqueror, Centurion, Chieftain) As you may notice, the Chieftain was a quite small tank compared to the British Heavy Tank, the Conqueror.

 

 

(This is for the Mk.1 variant)

 

FV 4201 MBT specifications

 

Dimensions : 35.43/24.6 x 11.48 x 9.51 ft (10.8 oa/7.5 m x 3.5 m x 2.9 m)

Total weight, battle ready 55 tons (11000 Ibs) Crew 4 (commander, driver, gunner, loader).

Propulsion British Leyland diesel BL 40, 450-650 bhp, later BL 60, 695 bhp

Speed 48/30 km/h road/cross-country (29.82/18.64 mph) Range/consumption 500 km (310.68 mi)

Armament One L11A1 120 mm (4.7in) with Marconi cal.50 gun One coaxial 7,62 mm L8A1 (0.3 NATO) machine-gun

One cupola mounted AA L37A1 7,62 (0.3 NATO) machine-gun

Armour turret front 7.6in, glacis 4.72in, sides 1.37in (195/120/35 mm)

Ammunition used Antipersonal HESH, armour-piercing APDS.

Total production 900 for Great Britain alone, up to 1381 export variants

 

 

The armor looks pretty good, how does it hold up, and how much is it? Well getting some armor thickness and angles from Wikipedia, this armor layout picture, and using an armor calculator http://www.panzerworld.com/relative-armor-calculator, I can tell you. So here are the important parts:

Upper Glacis: 

Results Multiplier 3.23607 Relative thickness 275.06578

Lower Glacis: 

Results Multiplier 1.41421 Relative thickness 107.48023

Turret Front (this varies from 125mm to 140mm, so I will use both thicknesses): 

Results Multiplier 2 Relative thickness 280 Results Multiplier 2 Relative thickness 250

What about the gun? Well, the 120mm rifled gun could do this: APDS – 140mm (60 degrees, 2000 yards), HESH – 150mm (60 degrees, 2000 yards). Let's just say it's still in service. The gun had a reload rate of 6-10 rounds per minute. 

• Calibre: 120 millimetres (4.7 in)
• Barrel length 6.604 metres (21 ft 8.0 in) (55 calibres)
• Length overall 6.858 metres (22 ft 6.0 in)
• Weight: 1,778 kilograms (3,920 lb)
• Recoil distance: 37 centimetres (1 ft 3 in)
• Maximum range/velocity (APDS): 3,000 metres (3,300 yd), 4,495 ft/s (1,370 m/s)
• Maximum range/velocity (HESH): 8,000 metres (8,700 yd), 2,198 ft/s (670 m/s)
• Maximum rate of fire: 10 rounds/min ^[4]
• Sustained rate of fire: 6 rounds/min
• Elevation: +20/-10 on Chieftain Mk 2.

Rounds fired from the L11A:

• L31 High Explosive Squash Head (HESH)
• L15 Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot-Tracer (APDS-T) (production discontinued)
• L20 Discarding Sabot-Tracer (DS-T)
• L23 Armour Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS)
• L34 Smoke
• L32 Squash Head-Practice (SH-P)
• L35A1 canister shot

 

After a lot of searching, and finding nothing, I found a forum post that states all modern gun penetration stats from the 60's on. Now it is a WoT forum post, but that doesn't mean it will be any less reliable than a War Thunder Forum post, it's all about where they got the information. Note: These might not be 100% accurate, but they are an estimate of what we could expect from the gun. Here is what I've found: (the rounds that can be in game are bolded for easy looking)

 

UK L-15 120mm APDS round 355mm at 1km/340mm at 2km (1965)
UK L-31 120mm HESH 460mm at any range (1960s)
UK L-15A4 120mm APDS-T 450mm at 2km (1970s, and exported to Iran before Revolution)
UK L-23 120mm tungsten APFSDS round 450mm at 2km (Apr 1983)

 

Source:http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/128208-modern-gun-penetration-values/

 

 

With the upcoming releases of the (or so i've heard) Leopord 1 (1965) with the L7A, T-62A (1961), T-10M (1957), M60 Patton (1960), and possibly the Maus (1944?), also the M103 (1957) with the new HEAT round, would this tank be justified and balanced for the game? Don't say no, the Germans have had enough clubbing, because it won't face current tanks that's for sure. Think of the tanks I just mentioned, and possible tanks to come to War Thunder before judging please.

 

Information found by forum readers:

 

Some more info regarding the early Chieftain variants courtesy of New Vanguard Chieftain Main Battle Tank 1965-2003 by Simon Dunstan and published by Osprey Publishing.

 

Note I will be leaving out a lot of information about minor things like whether the commander's cupola had a split hatch or not and other internal changes that have no importance to the game.

 

FV4201 prototypes:

P1-P6 were delivered between January 1960 and November 1962.

W1-W6 were delivered between March 1961 and April 1962

G1 and G2 delivered in January and November 1962

 

Mark 1:

These had a 585 bhp engine.

Cast steel turret with rolled steel roof and bustle.

Vehicles were dispatched between June 1965 and February 1966.

 

Marks 1/1 through 1/4 are various changes to increase engine reliability and make the tank ready for full production.

 

Mark 2:

These vehicles had a 650 bhp engine fitted.

Also got a new turret with improved ballistic protection,

First delivered on 18 April 1966.

Full production vehicle.

 

 

 

 

Requirement was for the gun to penetrate 120mm of armour angled at 60 degrees at 2000 yards. IE an IS-2 frontally at 2000 yards. I found a lot of claims stating 355mm or armour at 1000 yards. Which people extrapolated to be flat armour. Since 120mm at 2000 at 60 degrees is about 355 flat at 1000.

 

Thanks to any and all that provide extra information that I didn't. o7 :D

Edited June 14, 2015 by HipTurtle

[Smin1080p 60,444]

Open for discussion  :salute:​  

[Abgeschossene 10,084]

Either MK. III or MK. II.

 

The MK. I is VERY slow.

[STRONKTONK 13]

Well since im fairly sure 2nd gen MBTs are going to be added i fully support this... however its going to be interesting fighting in tanks that can pen eachother from thousands of meters away...

[swedeonthemoose 12,809]

welcome to snipe thunder ^^ but tbh i do hope for more 60's tanks ^^ endgame will then be more about choosing the right time to move and carefully observe and pick of targets

[Valkyrian0 2,245]

since when did the cut-off date of 1953 get shoved out a 80 story building to fall straight to hell.

 

Now I love all things British but isn't this just a power creep, next people will whine that they can't have this or that, and in the end the Russians end up with the T-90M (think that's their most modern tank), the Germans will get the Leo 2, the U.S will get the Abrahams M1A1 and the British with the Challenger 2.

[Kempston 342]

Yes, go on I'll take that. Only because I have relations who drove it...

[ValkyrieLitewing 1,659]

since when did the cut-off date of 1953 get shoved out a 80 story building to fall straight to hell.
 
Now I love all things British but isn't this just a power creep, next people will whine that they can't have this or that, and in the end the Russians end up with the T-90M (think that's their most modern tank), the Germans will get the Leo 2, the U.S will get the Abrahams M1A1 and the British with the Challenger 2.

The cutoff date was moved to 1957 for tanks originally, but the T-62A Leo 1 and maybe more are being added so the date I'm assuming got pushed again to '65ish

[Valkyrian0 2,245]

The cutoff date was moved to 1957 for tanks originally, but the T-62A Leo 1 and maybe more are being added so the date I'm assuming got pushed again to '65ish

*facepalm* dear god this is going to get bad if they are not careful.

[ValkyrieLitewing 1,659]

*facepalm* dear god this is going to get bad if they are not careful.

Especially with the depleted uranium armor and APFSDS and all that coming just after the 60s, it could get outta hand. Which is why it cannot go past the 60s imo. There was also a suggestion for some weird German 1965 tank destroyer so that also could come into play.

[Valkyrian0 2,245]

Especially with the depleted uranium armor and APFSDS and all that coming just after the 60s, it could get outta hand. Which is why it cannot go past the 60s imo. There was also a suggestion for some weird German 1965 tank destroyer so that also could come into play.

true true, the german TD was the Kanonenjagdpanzer IIRC 

pic V

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[uzl2s 145]

*facepalm* dear god this is going to get bad if they are not careful.

I think the new cutoff is no tanks with composite armor. So T-62 is the top for the Russians, M60 for the US, Leo 1 for the Germans, one of the late Centurions or the Chieftain for the British, and Type 74 for the Japanese.

 

The big problem with implementing the Chieftain is the massive firepower advantage it would have over the other top tanks.

Edited January 23, 2015 by uzl2s

[ValkyrieLitewing 1,659]

I think the new cutoff is no tanks with composite armor. So T-62 is the top for the Russians, M60 for the US, Leo 1 for the Germans, one of the late Centurions or the Chieftain for the British, and Type 74 for the Japanese.
 
The big problem with implementing the Chieftain is the massive firepower advantage it would have over the other top tanks.

The 120mm M58 with HEAT is already amazing, but this gun, along with HESH, also has APDS. So yea it could be a little off balance but it could work

[Bird_is_The_Word 222]

hip is this what you've been doing whist i'm not online ?, because it is you seriously did your research, and i supports this tank  :salute:

[ValkyrieLitewing 1,659]

hip is this what you've been doing whist i'm not online ?, because it is you seriously did your research, and i supports this tank  :salute:

When I suggest something I suggest all of it. Leave nothing out unless its in a book you have to pay for. I've been wanting to suggest it for months so I've been researching for months. While you're on, you been studying for exams or something? Because I've been doing this instead of studying :(

[Bird_is_The_Word 222]

When I suggest something I suggest all of it. Leave nothing out unless its in a book you have to pay for. I've been wanting to suggest it for months so I've been researching for months. While you're on, you been studying for exams or something? Because I've been doing this instead of studying :(

nope just been working, that's all 

[Tank50us 266]

Yes... the Chieftain.... I want this tank pretty damn bad.... we're getting the tank in WoT soon, but that's months away from now at best.... and it will certainly be nice to see it in this game as well.

 

Wargamings own "TheCheiftain" probably said it best....

 

"I'm gonna sit on this hill, TRY and take it from me!"

[Th3hadyn 5,881]

gib!

[Master0M0Master 164]

Ok i am totally against it, why so?

Where was it stated that the cut-off date was moved to the later years, could you please show this to me?

The only reason germans are getting the Leo1 is probably balancing issues, kinda the same with the german Mig-15 and Sabre. Although germany got them, the cut-off date was not moved backwards, this was an exception.

And if you want a tank from that cut-off date, then say hello to guided missiles blowing you up from the back end of the map.

 

Regards

Master-M-Master :salute:

[ValkyrieLitewing 1,659]

Ok i am totally against it, why so?

Where was it stated that the cut-off date was moved to the later years, could you please show this to me?

The only reason germans are getting the Leo1 is probably balancing issues, kinda the same with the german Mig-15 and Sabre. Although germany got them, the cut-off date was not moved backwards, this was an exception.

And if you want a tank from that cut-off date, then say hello to guided missiles blowing you up from the back end of the map.

 

Regards

Master-M-Master :salute:

Can you explain the T-62A then? and the supposed M60?

[piritskenyer 1,514]

Yes please :')

[Tank50us 266]

Can you explain the T-62A then? and the supposed M60?

 

Or the reason the M103 finally got its HEAT round :Ps

 

Like I said, I want the Chieftain ingame, I have a model of a MkIII sitting on my desk (Tamiya kit... that's seen better days). Heck, I already have the M41.... and I have a model of that on my desk.... granted I also have a Leo.... a Sheridan... and an Abrams... that last one I don't think we'll ever see :Ps

[swedeonthemoose 12,809]

Or the reason the M103 finally got its HEAT round :Ps

 

Like I said, I want the Chieftain ingame, I have a model of a MkIII sitting on my desk (Tamiya kit... that's seen better days). Heck, I already have the M41.... and I have a model of that on my desk.... granted I also have a Leo.... a Sheridan... and an Abrams... that last one I don't think we'll ever see :Ps

lol i got the mk5 on my desk xD

[TheDireLynx 4]

The main reason why I'm opposed to this and why I'm having issues seeing it happen is tech tree imbalance. As it is, German tanks are way outclassed and unless you want to have a big range where the entire German team is nothing but Leopard 1 MBTs, Germany won't be doing so well in terms of tanks, which means you're essentially going to have just the USA, Russia and Britain above BR of ~7.3, 7.7 ish since no German tank would really be able to compete. I'd rather not just leave one nation in the dust, it's already happening, let's not make this issue worse.

In the future if you can discover a lot more tanks Germany can actually use, sure, I'd love to see the trees enlarged. Until then, outclassed machines don't need to be further outclassed so that German tanks have their BRs falling below 7.3 as their max with the only tank capable of doing anything at all to anyone as the Jagdtiger if it manages to shoot before it dies or the Leopard 1.

[Tank50us 266]

The main reason why I'm opposed to this and why I'm having issues seeing it happen is tech tree imbalance. As it is, German tanks are way outclassed and unless you want to have a big range where the entire German team is nothing but Leopard 1 MBTs, Germany won't be doing so well in terms of tanks, which means you're essentially going to have just the USA, Russia and Britain above BR of ~7.3, 7.7 ish since no German tank would really be able to compete. I'd rather not just leave one nation in the dust, it's already happening, let's not make this issue worse.

In the future if you can discover a lot more tanks Germany can actually use, sure, I'd love to see the trees enlarged. Until then, outclassed machines don't need to be further outclassed so that German tanks have their BRs falling below 7.3 as their max with the only tank capable of doing anything at all to anyone as the Jagdtiger if it manages to shoot before it dies or the Leopard 1.

 

You do know that Germany is getting new vehicles so that they CAN be balanced.... right?