Ground vehicles Leopard 1 with 120mm gun (Read before judging)

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

Yes I know I know "but leopard is 2 op plox nerf stupid wehraboo" 

 

How about you read before you hate? Yes? Ok lets go

 

I have been brainstorming on how to give germany a better tank which is on one line with the Conqueror (later Chieftain), M103 and T10M. I know the Leopard is a good tank yes but im more talking about a tank with a gun that isnt the same on another nations vehicles at BR 7.0.

 

There already are some suggestions talking about Keiler, Kpz 70 and so on but these vehicles really are close to OP.

 

So I thought hmmmm wouldnt it be great to have a Leopard with a 120mm gun. And booom there I find it.

 

The Leopard 1A6 was a prototype which succesfully proved that the new 120mm/L44 gun can be fitted into the Leopard 1. 

 

Yes you read right the one that the early Leopards used. BUT dont worry it wont be OP if we implement the right way. 

 

This gun would in fact be the most modern in the game but if we only give it the APFSDS ammo (DM13) it had a muzzle velocity of 1600m/s and a Muzzle energy of 9.7 MJ.

The Chieftain had a muzzle velocity of 1400m/s and a muzzle energy of 9.7 MJ as well.

The T62 has a smoothbore gun as well and had a muzzle velocity of 1600m/s and a muzzle energy of 10.5 MJ.

 

That means this gun wont be OP it would even be equal. And well we all know the Leopard itself isnt OP when it comes to armor.

 

Now the Leopard 1A6 of course was a late variant and therefore equipped with multiple modern stuff which we dont want ingame and I suggest just leave that out  (stabilization, modern composite armor panels,...).

The Turret however would need to be completely new modeled and researched but I think the devs can manage that.

 

The weight overall would only increase 4 tons so the speed wont be reduced drastically.

 

Picture: [spoiler]  [/spoiler]

 

 

Sources:  [spoiler]

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_1

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_120-mm-Glattrohrkanone

http://www.panzerpower.de/ger/leo1_baulose.htm

http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kpz_leopard_1-c.htm

http://tanknutdave.com/the-german-leopard-1-series/

http://www.welt.de/geschichte/article146178632/Leopard-I-Der-wohl-beste-Kampfwagen-seiner-Zeit.html

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=58

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_120-mm-Glattrohrkanone#120-mm-Glattrohrkanone_L.2F44

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Bundeswehrmunition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ordnance_L11A5

https://www.google.de/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=L11a5+MJ

https://www.google.de/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=U-5TS+gun+MJ

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-5TS

http://forum.worldoftanks.com/index.php?/topic/241078-weaknesses-of-the-t-34/page__st__20

http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/22-militaer-fahrzeuge/8189-leopard-1a6-revell.html

http://i.imgur.com/f5ZPDKi.jpg

https://aw.my.com/en/forum/showthread.php?6582-Leopard-1-Doco

http://www.pmulcahy.com/tanks/german_tanks.html

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/West_Germany/Leopard-I.php

[/spoiler]

 

Edited January 11, 2016 by TheJoker1432

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

Open for discussion  :salute:​  

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

Open for discussion  :salute:​  

Thank you :D

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

Again, MJ comparison works if both rounds are identical. They're not, and neither are the guns. Not even close.

 

Chieftain:

• 150 mm @ 60° / 1,800 m (IIRC)
• Standard steel hull and turret
• Slow
• Don't know its RoF, 8 RPM?

T-62: 

• 120-ish mm @ 60° / 2,000 m
• Standard steel hull and turret, very similar to the T-54/55
• As fast as the T-54
• 5 RPM

Leopard disgusting prototypecreep:

• 200 mm @ 60° / 2,000 m
• Composite armour turret
• Very fast

 

 

No. No. No. No. aaaaand more no. This suggestion does nothing but force the game into the LRP era, of which the tanks that America and the Soviets get will end up smashing the Germans. This is a can of worms that needs to remain closed for the sake of balance.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Choogleblitz

[Nope 10,634]

Ok, it seems you have seriously no idea on how good DM13 actually is. That thing penetrates around 450mm and has excellent slope coefficients. The T-62 will not really go past 300m penetration. The Chieftain has 400mm penetration with worse ballistics. The Chieftain at the very least has horrible mobility and so won't be able to flank. The Leopard 1A6 can very easily. Congrats, the Chieftain's armor and the T-10M's armor is invalidated and it's going to be all Leopard 1A6s because at least those can get to the good spots since armor is so irrelevant and range of engagement extends to practically 2-3 km.

 

I really don't get it. What's with the 120mm smoothbore suggestions? Even the most basic ammunition is horribly overpowered for this game.

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

Again, MJ comparison works if both rounds are identical. They're not, and neither are the guns. Not even close.

 

Chieftain:

• 150 mm @ 60° / 1,800 m (IIRC)
• Standard steel hull and turret
• Slow
• Don't know its RoF, 8 RPM?

T-62: 

• 120-ish mm @ 60° / 2,000 m
• Standard steel hull and turret, very similar to the T-54/55
• As fast as the T-54
• 5 RPM

Leopard disgusting prototypecreep:

• 200 mm @ 60° / 2,000 m
• Composite armour turret
• Very fast

 

 

No. No. No. No. aaaaand more no. This suggestion does nothing but force the game into the LRP era, of which the tanks that America and the Soviets get will end up smashing the Germans. This is a can of worms that needs to remain closed for the sake of balance.

well the 115mm smoothbore got a penetration of 200mm at 60° with HEAT as well https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/206192-ammunition-for-the-u-5ts-115mm-smoothbore/page-2

 

wouldnt be a problem then

 

as i said in the post just leave the composite armor out so that wouldnt be a problem either

 

The 105mm we have currently was considered unable to reliably penetrate a T62 so we cant stick with what we have

 

additionally the rate of fire of the leopard 2 is about 9-10 rounds per minute, now given that the leopard 1 was a bit smaller it would probably result in 6-8 rounds per minute

 

happy now?

Ok, it seems you have seriously no idea on how good DM13 actually is. That thing penetrates around 450mm and has excellent slope coefficients. The T-62 will not really go past 300m penetration. The Chieftain has 400mm penetration with worse ballistics. The Chieftain at the very least has horrible mobility and so won't be able to flank. The Leopard 1A6 can very easily. Congrats, the Chieftain's armor and the T-10M's armor is invalidated and it's going to be all Leopard 1A6s because at least those can get to the good spots since armor is so irrelevant and range of engagement extends to practically 2-3 km.

 

I really don't get it. What's with the 120mm smoothbore suggestions? Even the most basic ammunition is horribly overpowered for this game.

Im sorry I didnt mean DM13 i meant the early APFSDS, someone called it BM13 im unsure if thats correct to his statement it can pen 200mm at 60° WHICH the T62 can too with HEAT rounds adn 450mm at a flat plate

 

additionally the 105mm was unable to reliably penetrate the T62 thats why they even invented the 120mm

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

well the 115mm smoothbore got a penetration of 200mm at 60° with HEAT as well https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/206192-ammunition-for-the-u-5ts-115mm-smoothbore/page-2

 

wouldnt be a problem then

 

as i said in the post just leave the composite armor out so that wouldnt be a problem either

 

The 105mm we have currently was considered unable to reliably penetrate a T62 so we cant stick with what we have

 

additionally the rate of fire of the leopard 2 is about 9-10 rounds per minute, now given that the leopard 1 was a bit smaller it would probably result in 6-8 rounds per minute

 

happy now?

Im sorry I didnt mean DM13 i meant the early APFSDS, someone called it BM13 im unsure if thats correct to his statement it can pen 200mm at 60° WHICH the T62 can too with HEAT rounds adn 450mm at a flat plate

 

additionally the 105mm was unable to reliably penetrate the T62 thats why they even invented the 120mm

 

Are you trolling? Really. Are you trolling? The L7 cannot penetrate a T-62? Since when? It goes through the T-54 like butter, why wouldn't the T-62 which has basically the same armour not be penetrated? Seriously, what the fuck.

[JEI2 5,766]

No.

[Mai_Waffentrager 9,657]

Sorry, but this suggestion is a bit absurd. Not needed and would again like mentioned prior, force the game into an era of modernized tank specs.


No thank you.

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

Are you trolling? Really. Are you trolling? The L7 cannot penetrate a T-62? Since when? It goes through the T-54 like butter, why wouldn't the T-62 which has basically the same armour not be penetrated? Seriously, what the xxxx.

And i quote: "Due to concerns about the inability of the 105-millimetre (4.1 in) L7 tank gun then in use across NATO forces to penetrate new Soviet armor, as proved in German tests on four T-62 Soviet tanks captured by Israel following the June 1967 Six Day War, Rheinmetall was paid for the development of a new tank gun, a project started in 1965, as the Bundeswehr felt a more powerful gun was needed for its new tanks."

 

wikipedia

Sorry, but this suggestion is a bit absurd. Not needed and would again like mentioned prior, force the game into an era of modernized tank specs.


No thank you.

not needed? read the text from wikipedia above

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

And i quote: "Due to concerns about the inability of the 105-millimetre (4.1 in) L7 tank gun then in use across NATO forces to penetrate new Soviet armor, as proved in German tests on four T-62 Soviet tanks captured by Israel following the June 1967 Six Day War, Rheinmetall was paid for the development of a new tank gun, a project started in 1965, as the Bundeswehr felt a more powerful gun was needed for its new tanks."

 

wikipedia

not needed? read the text from wikipedia above

 

And I quote: 

 

105 mm DM13:

• 123 mm @ 60° (30° in-game)
• 303 mm @ 0° (90° in-game) 

Yeah, totally can't penetrate a T-54... Oh, T-62 has the same armour. Maybe 10-20 mm thicker turret.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Choogleblitz

[Mai_Waffentrager 9,657]

The fact you keep bringing up Wikipedia as your quote and source disregards your suggestion.

[TheJoker1432 1,974]

And I quote: 

 

105 mm DM13:

• 123 mm @ 60° (30° in-game)
• 303 mm @ 0° (90° in-game) 

Yeah, totally can't penetrate a T-54... Oh, T-62 has the same armour. Maybe 10-20 mm thicker turret.

well what the hell do i know but as you can see it seemed inadequate at the time

The fact you keep bringing up Wikipedia as your quote and source disregards your suggestion.

not everyone has the time and the motivation to start writing a book to quote on that

 

I just thought since anyone gets a 120mm gun germyn should get one too

 

but apparently everyone seems to agree that the leopard 1 can totally face T62, Chieftain and M60A1

[SmartSkull007 2,991]

Perhaps it could be added as a top tier tank, verusing T-10M, and T-54s, Chieftain, Conqueror, Centurion, M103, and M60. This thing (if it's ever added) will need a BR, or an MM so it doesn't see WW2 tanks.

[Grand_Moff_Tano 3,460]

Certainly don't see why not, as long as it's balanced it will serve the Top tier well.

[Vlad_The_Impala 338]

OK I voted only if.

 

If its needed.  The Leo with HEATFS should take care of anything in game.  I guess the only problem with that is the cost of HEATFS.  If you need to take 2 shots at an enemy tank to kill it you are already in the red.

[Grand_Moff_Tano 3,460]

OK I voted only if.

 

If its needed.  The Leo with HEATFS should take care of anything in game.  I guess the only problem with that is the cost of HEATFS.  If you need to take 2 shots at an enemy tank to kill it you are already in the red.

I would say it might be needed, as the Chieftain could in theory could survive a single HEAT-FS round.

[Mai_Waffentrager 9,657]

well what the hell do i know but as you can see it seemed inadequate at the time
not everyone has the time and the motivation to start writing a book to quote on that
 
I just thought since anyone gets a 120mm gun germyn should get one too
 
but apparently everyone seems to agree that the leopard 1 can totally face T62, Chieftain and M60A1

Then don't suggest something you aren't aware of besides some articles on Wikipedia.

[Grand_Moff_Tano 3,460]

Then don't suggest something you aren't aware of besides some articles on Wikipedia.

Or come to realisation that the Leopard 1's gun would be insufficient against tanks like the Chieftain.

[leopard2boy 12]

yes

[Atsuk0 392]

I don't understand the wave of negativity behind this when the 1A6 was, after all, a tank meant to counter the EXACT tanks that are being added to the game in the near future. The point of that 120mm gun being mounted was so the Leopard would have a fighting chance against the T-62 and related designs. If these related designs are being added into the game, then I say the 1A6 deserves to be in as well. 

 

However, the only drawback is this thing (and, of course, everything else planned to be added) is going to be downright cancer when facing 6.7. T-62, Chieftian, M60A1, this Leo 1A6, all of them will be ungodly amounts of stupid to face if they get downtiered. I'd propose they get a mandatory 8.0 BR at minimum, so they never face 6.7 and can only possibly get 7.0 downtiers, at which the tanks they face at least have a decent chance at fighting and killing them h2h.

[Grand_Moff_Tano 3,460]

I don't understand the wave of negativity behind this when the 1A6 was, after all, a tank meant to counter the EXACT tanks that are being added to the game in the near future. The point of that 120mm gun being mounted was so the Leopard would have a fighting chance against the T-62 and related designs. If these related designs are being added into the game, then I say the 1A6 deserves to be in as well. 

 

However, the only drawback is this thing (and, of course, everything else planned to be added) is going to be downright cancer when facing 6.7. T-62, Chieftian, M60A1, this Leo 1A6, all of them will be ungodly amounts of stupid to face if they get downtiered. I'd propose they get a mandatory 8.0 BR at minimum, so they never face 6.7 and can only possibly get 7.0 downtiers, at which the tanks they face at least have a decent chance at fighting and killing them h2h.

Some people are just negative about Germany getting competitive vehicles.

[JP_MR_Wiggles 885]

hhhmmm glass cannon kill all the slow big guns..... sure add it alot of people dont know this but a perfect tank to hunt tanks like this lepord are already in game.

[Nope 10,634]

Im sorry I didnt mean DM13 i meant the early APFSDS, someone called it BM13 im unsure if thats correct to his statement it can pen 200mm at 60° WHICH the T62 can too with HEAT rounds adn 450mm at a flat plate

 

additionally the 105mm was unable to reliably penetrate the T62 thats why they even invented the 120mm

 

Such a round does not exist. BM-xx designations were not used by the Germans. This is clearly a typo referencing DM 13. The coefficients I find match the penetration values of the round.

 

Also, the T-62 is marginally more armored than the T-54 that was very easily penetrated from extreme range by the L7. Why would the L7 penetrate what is basically a marginally better armored T-54 in terms of armor layout?

 

Or come to realisation that the Leopard 1's gun would be insufficient against tanks like the Chieftain.

 

That's really silly. The turret can be penetrated at 1 km or so with L23 APDS (around 2 km with L52 APDS), while the HEAT ammunition would go clean through any part of the turret. Hell, since there is no strict guaranteed automatic bounce angle on HEAT in WT and HEAT has the least chance of bouncing randomly, then HEAT is still going to murder the Chieftain. However, the L11 would just go clean through anything anyway, but the Chieftain turns slow and accelerates slow. Its gun and armor will be balanced by seriously being stiff to drive around. APDS also has a very flat arc, so hitting the turret at that range shouldn't be too bad. This only leaves the UFP as a no no, and that's honestly a small part of the tank to hit.

 

Again, the inclusion of the Leopard 1A6 invites the introduction of T-64As. We're talking about Gaijin having to go in deep with composites, and they already suck bad with steel as it is. This should never be a thing in WT.

[HauntTheShinyy 1,115]

and here we go again :P