Tanks/Vehicles Vickers Light Tank AA

[Nuclear_Frog 363]

Anti-aircraft tank based on Vickers Light Tank Mk VI.

 

"Light, AA Mk I was built in the aftermath of the Battle of France and was intended to act as a counter-measure against attacks by German aircraft. It featured a power-operated turret fitted with four 7.92 mm Besa machine guns; a Mk II was produced which was mechanically similar but had improvements, such as better quality sights for the machine guns and a larger turret for easier access"

 

 

Mounted four Besa 7.92 mm machine guns or two Besa 15 mm guns in an antiaircraft mount.

 

Both of these could fit at the start before Staghound. The 4x.7.92 could be good for 1.0 BR at the start of British AA-line.  Which BR you think?

 

 

With four 7.92 mm mg´s:

 

 

With two 15 mm mg´s:

 

 

 

Data of Vickers Mk VI:

 

Specifications:

Weight: 4.85 long tons (4.93 t) later 5.2 long tons (5.3 t)

Length: 13 feet (4.0 m)

Width: 6 ft 10 in (2.08 m)

Height: 7 ft 3 in (2.26 m)

Crew: 3 (commander, gunner, driver)

Armour: 4 – 14 mm

Engine: Meadows 6-cylinder petrol 88 hp

Power/weight: 16.9 hp/ton (Mark VIB and VIC)

Transmission: Wilson pre-selector gearbox

Suspension: Horstmann inclined springs

Ground clearance: 10 inches

Fuel capacity: 30 imperial gallons (140 l; 36 US gal)

Operational range: 130 miles (210 km)

Speed: 35 miles per hour (56 km/h) (25 miles per hour (40 km/h) off road)

 

Machine gun info: (Both variants)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besa_machine_gun

 

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=124:british-tank-armaments&catid=49:other-data&Itemid=61

 

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/216040-light-tank-vickers-mark-vi-c-british-tank/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Tank_Mk_VI

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/gb/Vickers_light_MkVI.php

http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/3-UK/01-LightTanks/Vickers-Mk1-6/File/3-Conversions.htm

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by Nuclear_Frog

[Smin1080p_WT 60,444]

Open for discussion  :salute:​  

[DoLhades 361]

I think it'd be a nice premium personally, those guns would be a pain to use on ground forces, and it certainly is an interesting tank

[mr905 1,342]

I'd like to see whole british light tank branch ingame (not the cruisers) so yes +1

[Nuclear_Frog 363]

Soviets have the GAZ from mid 30s. Germany has Flakpanzer from around the battle of France. These vehicles/tanks were what british had in 1940. 

They also had stuff like trucks with 40mm Bofors, but i think these ones here would be more suitable for 1.0 BR.

 

Now the british AA-line starts with Staghound AA. So it jumps straight to year 1943. It would be nice to drive those vehicles that they had to use at the opening years of WW2.

 

The mgs of these tanks also fired armour-piercing bullets and since they are mounted on a tank they could be a tough competition.

[mr905 1,342]

Soviets have the GAZ from mid 30s. Germany has Flakpanzer from around the battle of France. These vehicles/tanks were what british had in 1940. 

They also had stuff like trucks with 40mm Bofors, but i think these ones here would be more suitable for 1.0 BR.

 

Now the british AA-line starts with Staghound AA. So it jumps straight to year 1943. It would be nice to drive those vehicles that they had to use at the opening years of WW2.

 

The mgs of these tanks also fired armour-piercing bullets and since they are mounted on a tank they could be a tough competition.

Omg how I'm so dumb! They have american car as starter AA! Didn't realize that o.0. Ofcourse we need teatank to starrt tea-branch!

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

Honestly I'm surprised that this wasn't added to the game right off the bat.  I even included it on my hypothetical British ground forces tree on WT Live a long time ago as the first vehicles on the SPAAG branch.  The one with the 15 mm BESAs could actually be fairly useful against ground targets.

 

EDIT:  Below is the hypothetical British GF tree I came up with a while back, BEFORE the British GF tech tree was announced...hell, it was made before tanks like the Leopard 1 and T-10M were added to the game.  As you can see, the Vickers AAA tanks are on the SPAAG branch at the very start.

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Z3r0_

[zuegma 1,546]

This is the Twin Besa version:

[JEI2 5,766]

gib both

[Lt_Cdr_Lowe 1,162]

Personally I was surprised that the Vickers Light Tank AA was not the initial Rank I British AA vehicle, especially as the chassis can be used for two AA options and also the Mk.VIC version. I would love to see the AA versions make it in, at the very least.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Lt_Cdr_Lowe

[Nuclear_Frog 363]

Honestly I'm surprised that this wasn't added to the game right off the bat.  I even included it on my hypothetical British ground forces tree on WT Live a long time ago as the first vehicles on the SPAAG branch.  The one with the 15 mm BESAs could actually be fairly useful against ground targets.

 

EDIT:  Below is the hypothetical British GF tree I came up with a while back, BEFORE the British GF tech tree was announced.  As you can see, the Vickers AAA tanks are on the SPAAG branch at the very start.

 

 

Thats a really good tree. I was also waiting for the light tanks. They skipped over a lot off potential stuff. 

 

 

 

This is the Twin Besa version:

[pic]

It gets a bit confusing with the models. It says on some site that the one in your picture is the prototype based on Mark V. The production model was based on Mark VI. In my opening post the picture says it is the Mark VI A (aka Mark I or light tank AA mark I) and that was not even the final production model. Light Tank AA Mark II = The Mark VI Mark II is very similar but it has external ammunition box and enlarged turret.

 

Little bit more about the Mark VI production variants:

Light Tank AA Mark I (late 1940).

This model had a new redesigned turret, housing a quad-7.92 mm (0.31 in) Besa or a twin 15 mm (0.59 in) Besa heavy machine-gun AA mount. Because of this new turret, the traverse was now done by hand, which severely limited its speed and the effectiveness of the entire solution. The crew was only two. Production of this model is unknown and ceased by 1941.

Light Tank AA Mark II (1941).

An improved version of the first, now with fully powered traverse, wider and more accessible turret, and better quality sights.

 

 

And both of these could be mounted with either the twin 15mm or 4x7.92mm machine-guns.

 

I think this (2x15mm) would be really fun to play.  It woud have really potent guns for low BR but nothing OP.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

Thats a really good tree. I was also waiting for the light tanks. They skipped over a lot off potential stuff. 

 

 

 

It gets a bit confusing with the models. It says on some site that the one in your picture is the prototype based on Mark V. The production model was based on Mark VI. In my opening post the picture says it is the Mark VI A (aka Mark I or light tank AA mark I) and that was not even the final production model. Light Tank AA Mark II = The Mark VI Mark II is very similar but it has external ammunition box and enlarged turret.

 

Little bit more about the Mark VI production variants:

Light Tank AA Mark I (late 1940).

This model had a new redesigned turret, housing a quad-7.92 mm (0.31 in) Besa or a twin 15 mm (0.59 in) Besa heavy machine-gun AA mount. Because of this new turret, the traverse was now done by hand, which severely limited its speed and the effectiveness of the entire solution. The crew was only two. Production of this model is unknown and ceased by 1941.

Light Tank AA Mark II (1941).

An improved version of the first, now with fully powered traverse, wider and more accessible turret, and better quality sights.

 

 

And both of these could be mounted with either the twin 15mm or 4x7.92mm machine-guns.

 

I think this (2x15mm) would be really fun to play.  It woud have really potent guns for low BR but nothing OP.

 

In hindsight I probably could've placed the Scorpion at rank 5, but I didn't want to leave a gap at rank 4, and at the time it was made the cutoff date was still up in the air as to whether it would remain set at 1953-1954 or it would be extended further (the latter being what eventually happened).

 

The traverse rate on the Mk.I would certainly handicap it in the SPAAG role, but the second one shouldn't have that problem.  Even so, the Mk.I might be able to make up for it with MOAR DAKKA.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Z3r0_

[HMSD33Dauntless 1,257]

Both should be added. The Mk. I should be BR 1.1 as while it has 4 7.92mm, it's still better than the 4M GAZ AAA due to armor so it can't be the same BR. The Mk. VI should be BR's 1.3-1.5.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

Both should be added. The Mk. I should be BR 1.1 as while it has 4 7.92mm, it's still better than the 4M GAZ AAA due to armor so it can't be the same BR. The Mk. VI should be BR's 1.3-1.5.

 

Armor which is still effectively useless against anything more than a machine gun.

[SmartSkull007 2,991]

Are they German 15mm? Those have 50mm of pen with the AP-I (c) rounds. That'd be amazing for a tier 2, 3.3 BR Premium AA.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

Are they German 15mm? Those have 50mm of pen with the AP-I (c) rounds. That'd be amazing for a tier 2, 3.3 BR Premium AA.

 

Actually the 15 mm BESA Mk.I was a license-built version of the Czech ZB vz.60 heavy machine gun.  The Germans DID use the original ZB vz.60 as a light AA gun, but it's not the same gun as the original incarnation of the MG 151.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Z3r0_

[Menarrosto 2,629]

Oh yes! I support it!
Only a question: how many were built?

[SmartSkull007 2,991]

Ohhh. I want a German AA with dual 15mm MG 151/15 because it has a 15mm API-C high velocity gun. It'd be an awesome premium AAA.... The ground killing with it :).

[DoLhades 361]

Thats a really good tree. I was also waiting for the light tanks. They skipped over a lot off potential stuff. 

 

 

 

 

I actually  myself have an Armoured Car line somewhere which probably would have complemented this nicely... or merged with the Lights nicely...

Edited January 13, 2016 by DoLhades

[blockhaj 3,560]

We have the gaz so why not. The t17 is way to good to be available as a first unlock.

Edited January 13, 2016 by blockhaj

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

Ohhh. I want a German AA with dual 15mm MG 151/15 because it has a 15mm API-C high velocity gun. It'd be an awesome premium AAA.... The ground killing with it :).

 

JUST dual 15 mm MG 151s?  How does THREE of them sound to you? :Ds

 

That's what the early models of the Sd.Kfz 251/21 halftrack SPAAG had.  Later models upgraded them to MG 151/20s.

 

 

But anyways back on topic, there seems to be discrepancies as to how much armor the 15 mm BESA can penetrate.  Some sources seem to claim as little as 16 mm at 100 meters, while others claim as much as 34 mm at 100 meters with standard AP rounds.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Z3r0_

[*Hubert-SRT 83]

I'd like to see both of them added.

[Lt_Cdr_Lowe 1,162]

But anyways back on topic, there seems to be discrepancies as to how much armor the 15 mm BESA can penetrate.  Some sources seem to claim as little as 16 mm at 100 meters, while others claim as much as 34 mm at 100 meters with standard AP rounds.

Listy was able to give us the actual penetration values of the 15mm BESA against medium quality plate in this [url=https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/216040-light-tank-vickers-mark-vi-c-british-tank/]thread[/url].

Righty ho...

 

Ammunition used: 15mm MK1-z

 

First you need some explanations:

 

C immunity:
the mean of the lowest Velocity to give a cracked bulge and that of the next lowest round which did not give a Cracked bulge

C/D:

50% of the rounds not to give a Cracked bulge

Ballistic Limits (BL):

50% of the rounds not to give bulges cracked so badly as to admit daylight.

W/R:

Approximately50% of the rounds estimated to be clean gun wins

 

So with that in mind: clicky!

 

I should note on the estimated parts of this. the data table is calculated. The gun had been fired at numerous ranges and angles against service plate, proved by 2Pdr and .303 AP. Others had come from tanks. So the values and performance of the armour was known. Against which the round was fired, and then fed through some maths by the scientists.

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Lt_Cdr_Lowe

[Nuclear_Frog 363]

Oh yes! I support it!
Only a question: how many were built?

Something like 50 Mark II:s.  Mark I (and prototypes) combined its hard to say since i couldn`t find much info about the production numbers of Mark I. There was also many tanks that were converted to AA-tanks later.

Then i found this quote:

"In a document dated 2 June 1941 titled ‘Equipment Deficiencies’ from ‘Brigadier AFVs’ in the Middle East, it is stated that”Policy is to cease substituting light tanks for cruiser as they are considered unbattleworthy against Germans. 60 are being modified with twin 0.5 machineguns for AA escort duty.”

 

"In a report showing the position as at 31 December 1943, there were 42 Mark I light AA tanks and 11 Mark II light AA tanks in the UK and a further 33 Mark II in CMF" 

/And this is after the earlier losses.

 

So hard to say how many overall were build/modified.  Still much more than Flakpanzer I for example.

 

 

 

Listy was able to give us the actual penetration values of the 15mm BESA against medium quality plate in this thread.

 

 

 

Thanks! I edited the links and some info to original post.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

Bump.

 

It had only been less than four hours.  A bump was unnecessary.

 

Give it a few days, THEN bump it if required.