Ground vehicles Removable Schürzen on German Tanks

[Atsuk0 392]

So this is something that has gotten under the skin (ha, a pun) of many WT Live skinners, me included, which is why I thought about suggesting this. Many of the German tanks ingame feature quite prominent sideskirts which are mostly just sheet metal intended to stop HEAT or HE shells from making their way into the generally thinner sides of the tank. 

 

Many WWII German tanks had spaced armour in the form of armoured skirts, , to make their thinner side armour more effective against anti-tank fire. Its introduction was to counter Soviet anti-tank units using conventional kinetic penetrator type rounds (anti-tank rifles), not the bazooka, panzerfaust, and other HEAT weapons as commonly thought.

 

The principle of spaced armour protects against high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) projectiles which create a focused jet of plasticised metal, very effective at the focus point, but much less so beyond there. Relatively thin armour plates or even metal mesh, much lighter than fully protective armour, can be attached as side skirts or turret skirts on tanks and other armoured vehicles. This light armour detonates the warhead prematurely so that the jet of metal is focused well before the main armour, becoming relatively ineffective.

 

It seems like a great idea and all. The German Schürzen were quite effective when used. But this is where the problem is - it was very much a rare occurrence to see a battle used German tank with a full set of sideskirts on it. These very thin pieces of essentially sheet metal were damaged extremely easily and were taken off for a variety of reasons. Schürzen were even removed by the tank's crew to avoid the accumulation of dirt, mud, slush, or other muck on the Schürzen themselves and on the space in between them and the tank's hull. 

 

The flimsiness of the Schürzen is documented in the many reports of Schürzen also coming off in rough terrain or woods as shown in many pictures. It was usual that one or more sections of the shields were missing on tanks in the field. See the following pictures for a lot of historical photos of skirt-less tanks:

 

TL;DR - Scroll to the very bottom of the post. The most important stuff is down there.

 

Panther Ausf. D "631" - II. PzReg 23, Normandy 1944

Here it is quite evident at how the Schürzen rarely stayed on for extended periods of time. On this Panther, half of the right-side Schürzen are already missing, and the most forward plate is already on its last legs.

 

 

Panther Ausf. G "252" / 11.PzDiv, presumably either France or Germany after D-Day.

This knocked out Ausf. G displays what was overwhelmingly common, specifically on Panthers - no Schürzen to be seen whatsoever on either side. 

 

The Panther is by far the easiest tank to see this on. But of course, we can't forget about everything else!

So, moving on to other types...

 

First off is a knocked out Jagdpanther after D-Day. Again, not a single Schürzen in sight! As the Jagdpanther is, of course, built off of a Panther hull, the skirts are the same as the Panther's.

 

The King Tiger is another good example of the variability of Schürzen. The KT's Schürzen were the same thickness as the Panther's - only 5mm - so they, of course, didn't stay on either. Here we see a King Tiger being inspected by its crewmen during the fall of 1944. Once again - no skirts left! 

Based on the Tiger II hull, we can also see the Jagdtiger's skirts fared equally badly, as seen in this knocked out example:

 

The Tiger H1/E also had Schürzen, albeit very much smaller and less prominent than the Panther's and KT's. Here we have a Tiger H1 "3" of s.Pz.Abt.503 during mid-1943. No skirts!

 

And last but not least, we can't forget the Panzer III, Panzer IV, and the StuGs based on each hull. These Schurzen were by far the most visible and significant forms of Schürzen fielded by any German tanks in the war, as the entire hull side was a large weakspot of 30mm thickness, unlike the Panthers and Tigers which had thicker and better angled armor on most of the sides.

 

However, once agian, these Schürzen were no better than their later counterparts. They were all, again, 5mm thick and provided little protection against anything that wasn't a HE or HEAT shell.

 

Here we see a Panzer III Ausf. M "002" of an unknown unit in Russia, sometime during Barbarossa. The frontal 3 panels have stayed on - providing temporary cover for the front half of the tank - but the rest are gone. 

 

Panzer IV Ausf. H "581" in winter of 1945! As rudimentary as the design may have been, the Pz IV was indeed around till the very end, as it was still relatively mechanically sound unlike the breakdown-prone Panthers and Tigers. This specific winter-camo toting Ausf. H is missing all of the hull Schürzen save for one, and one sheet on the turret side. 

 

The StuG used Schürzen as well, but only on the StuG III Ausf. G, StuH 42, and StuG IV. As expected, these fared just as badly as they did on the Pz III and IV hulls they were based off of. 

 

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Okay, so that's more than enough pictures. I think you get the point - Schürzen were flimsy as all hell!

 

So this is where the problem comes in. Schürzen in real life came off extremely easily. In game, the Panther's simply don't come off no matter WHAT you shoot at them! In addition, players don't have the choice to remove these skirts as they choose, like real-life German tankers did. 

 

Being able to remove Schürzen is especially helpful from a skinner's perspective. Trying to skin Pz III, Pz IV, Tigers and Jagdtigers which had no skirts is doable, because the skirts can be shot off by flak or HE or something of the sort. However, the Panthers' skirts do not come off at all! I'm sure this problem has been mentioned elsewhere, but it's a thorn in the side of every Live.WT tank skinner who likes painting Panthers. The skirts do not come off regardless, so you often have to make up patterns on them which otherwise ruins a historical skin that had no skirts to begin with. Shooting them off for screenshots would help even if they aren't removable, but that can't be done at all, so it becomes a point of irritation for me and other Panther skinners alike.

 

This is why I am suggesting a feature which allows you to remove Schürzen at will if you own the tank.

 

In game, the Schürzen on the Panthers, Pz III, Pz IV, and the StuGs are all separated already into individual plating:

 

 

Since these are already split up into individual paneling, why not make a feature which allows you to remove them manually for a sort of customization aspect to them? In order to remove them, perhaps the feature could work something like this:

 

1) Activate armor view

2) Highlight the skirt you want removed, as above

3) Click on it to remove it

 

To bring a skirt you removed back, simply do the same - just highlight it in armor viewer (it will be invisible on the 3d model but would still show in the armor model), click again. It's all a matter of changing their visibility, basically. Click to make them invisible, click again to bring 'em back. It's simple, and it would make all of us who want the skirts gone very much happy! Not to mention it would add a whole new level of historicality (is that even a word? lol) to the German tanks which very frequently lost these Schürzen in battle. 

 

This is only one idea for removing them and bringing them back, of course. It's up in the air as to how the removal of skirts manually by the player could be implemented, and if any of you have any ideas, go right ahead and post 'em. I'd love the click-to-remove method personally, because then I could remove whatever skirts I wanted to on my German tanks for maximum historical effect!

 

Hope this is thought about and maybe even implemented. It would make a great deal of German tankers happy - me included!

 

 

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

Open for Discussion. :salute:

[Atsuk0 392]

Thank you sir!  :salute:

[Sick2day 393]

Sounds like a nifty little feature, and could maybe be a step towards other bits of add-on armour being implemented!

[shortplayernameshortplayername 1,026]

Very much for this. It can fit with the immersion of being towards the end of the war with the later German tiers. It is also just a fun feature that adds to customization. 

 

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[GreenAid 944]

Even if people say they are useful, for me all tanks look more bad-ass with no mudguards on :D Not only German tanks have them, also Shermans do (I read that few had them during war since they removed/not added back for ease of maintenance) and some British.

 

I do support this ofc.

[Donger_of_Dongs 2,640]

ye sure

[Krispy_Sox 0]

WHAT? NON-REMOVABLE NONREMOVABLE? NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?NON-REMOVABLE?

[MightyArrow 353]

I have no interest in tanks of any kind, but I support this!

[SmartSkull007 2,990]

What would the practical use of this be other then skinning? Slightly increased mobility?

[Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383]

Shatter12, wondering the same thing.

[BungerWagon 30]

Good idea!  :yes:

but I still hate how tanks look without sideskirts 

[GunFighter86 3,190]

Well i guess it's an option. Why not. 

[Atsuk0 392]

What would the practical use of this be other then skinning? Slightly increased mobility?

 

Shatter12, wondering the same thing.

 

In the game, admittedly not very much aside from looks. In real life there were many more proper reasons to remove them, as I mentioned in the post, but in-game they're more or less purely cosmetic and are rather disposable just for looks. They don't serve enough purpose in game due to the fact that any AP shell goes right through them and not enough people use HE for them to be useful, which is why I'd rather just have them gone instead of being there and doing nothing to help in the first place. Removing them could possibly save some weight, but not much - these are 5mm thick sheet metal squares, all in all, so they won't weigh more than a few kilos put together.

 

Again, I think it falls under the category of "add-on armor" in the same realm as the Americans putting all kinds of sandbags or extra tracks on the front of their Shermans for extra protection, albeit not nearly as extravagant or good at protecting. BVV_d (tank dev) has said these kinds of stuff will be implemented in the future, so perhaps the Schurzen could be lumped in with that.

Edited January 17, 2016 by _TrudeBarkhorn_

[Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383]

In the game, admittedly not very much aside from looks. In real life there were many more proper reasons to remove them, as I mentioned in the post, but in-game they're more or less purely cosmetic and are rather disposable just for looks. They don't serve enough purpose in game due to the fact that any AP shell goes right through them and not enough people use HE for them to be useful, which is why I'd rather just have them gone instead of being there and doing nothing to help in the first place. Removing them could possibly save some weight, but not much - these are 5mm thick sheet metal squares, all in all, so they won't weigh more than a few kilos put together.

 

Again, I think it falls under the category of "add-on armor" in the same realm as the Americans putting all kinds of sandbags or extra tracks on the front of their Shermans for extra protection, albeit not nearly as extravagant or good at protecting. BVV_d (tank dev) has said these kinds of stuff will be implemented in the future, so perhaps the Schurzen could be lumped in with that.

 

It is extra free armor though!

[Atsuk0 392]

It is extra free armor though!

 

5mm scrap metal won't do much to stop an IS-2 shell! Also, I prefer this look over what we've got now:

 

[Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383]

So? 5mm of extra armor, 5mm of an extra chance for the shell to destabilize, 5mm for an extra chance for the shell to ricochet off, 5mm extra armor to stop a low caliber shell.

[Atsuk0 392]

It would be nice if shells did any of those things, but I've never had it happen. Especially on the KT and JT, whose Schurzen aren't even included in the armor profile! I mean, this is why I'd like it to be customizable. For those of us who want them gone, they can remove em. For the rest, leave em on. It's all up to the player.

Edited January 17, 2016 by _TrudeBarkhorn_

[GunFighter86 3,190]

Guys. Why are you arguing? If it's an option, that means you can keep them, or chose to remove them. 
Why would you get into several pages worth of "NO!" vs. "BECAUSE!" ?

[HardeKern 482]

LIKE IT! and more realistic! but ur get less armor when you remove a plate, a plate can save lives, but This is What I WANT!

Edited March 21, 2016 by HardeKern

[Fallenkezef 5,183]

We had the same problem with the "bazooka" plates on the Centurions. They look cute on those stock manouver pictures from the cold war, but in practice they fell off allot and had dubious real value.

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

Due to recent events, I would like to kindly remind anyone and everyone reading this thread to abstain from arguments of any sort. If you have something you would like to dispute, please, do it in a kind manner and take it to a private message.

 

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PLEASE NOTE: Any topic without above points will not be approved. Continuing to violate these rules of submission will lead to a warning, later resulting in further punishment. Any arguments or off topic discussions will result in the immediate closure and invalidation of the affected thread if found by a moderator, repeat offenders will be punished.

 

reference can be found HERE.

[/spoiler]

 

Consider this as an early warning as no info/warning sticky notes were given.

 

Thank you.

Edited January 17, 2016 by SAUBER_KH7

[Fallenkezef 5,183]

Ok, so allot of German tanks had the plates and the Centurion has them (which I think would be cool if we could customise the cents in the same fashion)

 

What about Russian and American tanks? Can we add any of them to this idea?

[Trude_Barkhorn_ 46]

I'd love to see that in the game!

Especially the Tiger II looks a lot better without them if you ask me. And the StuGs would be quite a bit stealthier without those huge flat metal plates on the sides. 

Ok, so allot of German tanks had the plates and the Centurion has them (which I think would be cool if we could customise the cents in the same fashion)

 

What about Russian and American tanks? Can we add any of them to this idea?

The fenders on the few Russian tanks that do have them seem to be bolted on, so I'm not too sure about those.

 

As far as American tanks go, the Shermans would all be good candidates for this, considering most of them didn't even have the fenders mounted to begin with.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Trude_Barkhorn_

[Atsuk0 392]

SAUBER_KH7, on 17 Jan 2016 - 12:43 PM, said: Due to recent events, I would like to kindly remind anyone and everyone reading this thread to abstain from arguments of any sort. If you have something you would like to dispute, please, do it in a kind manner and take it to a private message.

I mean, this is why I'd like it to be customizable. For those of us who want them gone, they can remove em. For the rest, leave em on. It's all up to the player.

 

Wasn't really an argument. I did, after all, say it should be left up to the player's tastes. 

Ok, so allot of German tanks had the plates and the Centurion has them (which I think would be cool if we could customise the cents in the same fashion)

 

What about Russian and American tanks? Can we add any of them to this idea?

 

Agree on the Cent. The sideskirts on that thing somehow don't come off even if you get hit by an IS-2 square in the side. 

 

There's not much in the way of Russians, since they don't really have sideskirts (as far as I know, aside from some mudguards, nothing really worthy of removing). On the Americans you could probably do the same thing with the Shermans, Hellcats, and maybe also some on the Pershing/Patton/T32? Nothing in the style of the German or Centurion's skirts, but something nonetheless.

 

EDIT: Definitely Pershing and Patton should be also considered. Found a source which mentions that almost ALL sideskirts on the M26s and M46s which served in Korea were discarded by the crews.

 

Here's a few profiles and hist pics:

 

'

Edited January 17, 2016 by _TrudeBarkhorn_