Tanks/Vehicles Raketenjagdpanzer (RakJPz) Jaguar 1 A0A1 [The successor of the RakJPz 2 - German Tank Destroyer]

[Arkel-99@psn 1,030]

Edit (19-11-2016): For people who see this suggestion and think: ''oh no stupid suggestion germany already 2 atgms pls why even suggest?'' I just wanna point out this suggestion was made before update 1.65 when Germany got the Raketenjagdpanzer 2 HOT, before that Germany only had one ATGM which was the RakJPz 2 with its slow firing MCLOS missile. The RakJPz 2 HOT we now have is basically identical to the Jaguar 1 A0 I suggested except for the fact that it's missing the add-on armor. I myself am still happy with the RakJPz 2 HOT Gaijin gave us since the add-on armor wouldn't make that much of a difference, but since it isn't exactly the Jaguar 1 A0 I suggested this suggestion stays open instead of going to the 'Implemented suggestions' section.

 

It might be a bit early to suggest but since we got ATGM's now anyways and it hasn't been suggested yet I thought ''why not?''

 

Raketenjagdpanzer (RakJPz) Jaguar 1 A0A1 (1976-1978)

 

 

 

The RakJPz Jaguar 1 A0A1 was the first variant of the Jaguar 1 which entered service in 1978.

 

Armament

• Main armament: 1 x HOT ATGM drum launcher, 1 missile ready to fire, (20 missiles in total), rate of fire is 3 rounds/minute
• Secondary armament: 2 x 7.62mm MG3 machine guns (3.200 rounds in total), 8x 76mm smoke discharges

 

HOT Missile (with comparison to the M551 Sheridan Shillelagh missile and IT-1 3M7 missile)

• Armour penetration: 800 mm (369 mm more than Shillelagh and 300 mm more than 3M7) *Both the Shillelagh and 3M7 are already able to pen everything.
• Range: 4,000 m (1,000 m more than Shillelagh and 3M7) *You're never shooting at people further away then the 3,000 m range of the Shillelagh and 3M7 missiles.
• Speed: 240 m/s (83 m/s slower than Shillelagh and 20 m/s faster than 3M7) *Shillelagh is still the fastest missile and HOT is only a bit faster than the 3M7.
• Guidance: SACLOS (same as Shillelagh and 3M7) *It uses the same guidance (RB/SB) as the M551 Sheridan and IT-1, unlike the RakJPz 2, which should make it more fair.
• Year: 1976

 

Specifications

• Weight: 25.7 ton
• Length: 6.61 m
• Width: 3.12 m
• Height: 2.55 m
• Crew: 4 (commander, gunner, loader, driver)
• Engine: 29,4l MTU MB 837 Aa V8 water-cooled multi-fuel diesel-engine 500 hp (368 kW)
• Suspension: torsion bar
• Speed: 70 km/h forward and reserve
• Ground clearance: 0.44 m
• Ground pressure: 0.70 kg/cm2
• Wheelbase: Tracked chassis, 5 roadwheels, idler frond, drive sprocket rear, 3.8 m length, 0.45 m width, 2.54 m track
• Power ratio: 19.6 hp/t
• Transmission: Renk HSWL 123
• Fuel: 470 L
• Range: 400 km
• Wall: 0.75 m
• Trench: 2 m
• Gradient: 58% gradient, 30% slope
• Fording: 1.2 m unprepared, 1.8 m prepared
• Armour: Steel, 12 to 50mm (no composite armour)
• Night vision: Yes

 

So the Jaguar 1 looks pretty similar to the Raketenjagdpanzer (RakJPz) 2 in both looks and specs. That's because the Jaguar 1 is a direct upgrade of the RakJPz 2.

 

Starting in 1978, 316 RakJPz 2 units were converted into Jaguar 1s. The SS.11 missile system using MCLOS got replaced with a HOT launcher using the SACLOS guidance system (the same system the IT-1 and M551 Sheridan are currently using) which was more reliable. The hull armour also got a small upgrade by adding steel armour plates on the hull and additional side skirts. The Jaguar 1 first entered service in the year 1978 so it still fits the current cut off date which ends in the 1970ies for War Thunder Ground Forces.

 

The Jaguar 1 is a much better contender against the IT-1 of the USSR and the M551 Sheridan of the USA we currently have in game. The missile system is much more similar to it and it isn't massively outperforming both of them. Also please keep in mind that the Jaguar 1 is still based on the old RakJPz 2 chassis made in the 1960ies, only now with additional armour plates, side skirts and a better guidance system which was already made in 1976.

 

If you have any other questions about this vehicle then feel free to send me a private message or ask them here. I'm not able to go into too much detail about this vehicle though because my first language isn't English. I added my sources below which you can read if you want to know more about the Jaguar 1 yourself.

 

Regarding the cut off date, here's a quote from Anton Yudintsev himself (Gaijin's CEO):

 

"For tanks the combat situation changed as well, but much later. Even vehicles from the 1970ies were not equipped with potent missiles that could be used without actually seeing or manually guiding for the enemy. So, with tanks, we'll probably go up to the 1970ies*, while with aircraft we'll stop in the 1960ies - when missiles took over combat. And this decision is purely a gameplay one, as combat with missiles in a Realistic game is, well, boring."

 

* (1970ies means till 1979)

 

Pictures

Spoiler

 

The following pictures are the Jaguar 1 A0 from the Austrian Army (pretty much the same as the Bundeswehr Jaguar 1 A0, its only missing the black cross on the sides).

 

Right side

Spoiler

 

Left side (taken from the back)

Spoiler

 

HOT Launcher

Spoiler

 

Rear

Spoiler

 

\

 

Sources and additional pictures/information

Spoiler

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_1

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOT_(missile)

(Link won't work perfectly, just click on it and go to the category 'Other Uses' were you will find 'HOT (Missile)' )

 

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/jaguar1.htm

 

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/jaguar1_at/jaguar1.htm

(This site is in German but it was the only source I could find which shows pictures of the Jaguar 1 A0. Its missing the Bundenswehr logo on the sides because its from the Austrian Army, some pictures are already shown above.)

 

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/jaguar1/jaguar1.html

(This site is in German too but there are some cool pictures on it though which shows different angles of the Jaguar 1 and even the inside. Keep in mind though this is the Jaguar 1 A3 variant with WBG-system on top instead of the old optics used by the A0. It's also the only difference between the Jaguar 1 A0 variant and the A3 variant)

 

http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsystem/CC02%20-%20Jaguar.html

 

http://warthunder.co...275/current/#18 

(Ground forces and Aircraft cut off date as stated by Gaijin's CEO)

 

Edited November 19, 2016 by *Arkel-99

[CokeSpray 7,274]

Open for discussion. :Salute:

[Nope 10,634]

It penetrates 800mm of RHA. I'd be mad about that were it not for the fact that ATGMs already do a fine job of negating armor anyway. I'd say maybe as I don't know how effective the guidance system is.

[ekg98 596]

add it

[McPuff 2,212]

-1

 

Way to modern. The conversions started in 1978, only one year later the production of the Leopard 2 started. Don't turn War Thudner into modern war.

If you want another german ATGM vehicle check out the Raketenjagdpanzer 1.

[Arkel-99@psn 1,030]

It penetrates 800mm of RHA. I'd be mad about that were it not for the fact that ATGMs already do a fine job of negating armor anyway. I'd say maybe as I don't know how effective the guidance system is.

 

The guidance system should work the same as the IT-1 and M551 Sheridan currently does in game

 

 

-1

 

Way to modern. The conversions started in 1978, only one year later the production of the Leopard 2 started. Don't turn War Thudner into modern war.

If you want another german ATGM vehicle check out the Raketenjagdpanzer 1.

 

I don't see why this tank would be to modern, it's just a RakJPz 2 with a different missile and guidance system. The SACLOS it is using instead of the MCLOS is the same guidance system the IT-1 and M551 Sheridan are currently using already in game.

 

The missile itself isn't massively overperforming the other missiles used by the IT-1 and M551 Sheridan either. The HOT missile is with a speed of 240 m/s slower than the MGM-61B Shillelagh (323 m/s) and only a bit faster than the 3M7 (220 m/s). The HOT missile would only have more pen than both other missile but it isn't like that matters much since the other missiles can both already pen pretty much everything.

 

Also the CEO of Gaijin stated in a Q&A that the cut off date for ground forces would be the 1970ies (which means till 1979), the Jaguar 1 was 'built' in 1978 so it would fit.

 

Source: http://warthunder.com/en/news/3275/current/#18

 

Edit: Also, what has the Jaguar 1 to do with the Leopard 2? They aren't similar in any way.

Edited June 26, 2016 by *Arkel-99

[Iron_physik 3,485]

I think that this tank could fit a place into WT

 

but only when the other nations also get multiple ATGM vehicles with similar performing missiles.

 

 

 

and BTW:

cou you please add a poll??

[Arkel-99@psn 1,030]

I think that this tank could fit a place into WT

 

but only when the other nations also get multiple ATGM vehicles with similar performing missiles.

 

 

 

and BTW:

cou you please add a poll??

 

Well the British might get the FV102 Striker and/or the FV438 Swingfire which were also both developed in the 1970s. They use the Swingfire ATGM which has the same penetration value as the HOT missile of the Jaguar 1 and can get either MCLOS or SCALOS as its guidance system. For USSR and USA I don't really know (maybe M60a2 Starship for USA?)

 

I also added the poll as requested  :salute:

Edited June 26, 2016 by *Arkel-99

[igeticsu 3,400]

So a RKTJPZ with mouse aim? I support!

[Arkel-99@psn 1,030]

So a RKTJPZ with mouse aim? I support!

 

That, plus the HOT missile is 90 m/s faster than the SS.11 missile  ;)s

[igeticsu 3,400]

That, plus the HOT missile is 90 m/s faster than the SS.11 missile  ;)s

 

 

 

*edit*

[CrouchingNarwal 348]

*edited out*

We don't need people putting stuff like this on the forums.

 

But I'm going to say no because ATGM's are a one hit KO 

Edited June 26, 2016 by PantherAl

[EisEiche 148]

They should replace the Raketenjagdpanzer 2 with this one since the current one is useless and the it-1 op.

[Arkel-99@psn 1,030]

We don't need people putting stuff like this on the forums.

 

But I'm going to say no because ATGM's are a one hit KO

 

So you're saying 'no' because ATGM's are killed by one shot or only need one shot to kill? I don't really understand your argument so correct me if I am wrong, but I have had plenty of times when I survived a direct hit from an enemy ATGM.

Also most tanks we already had in the game before 1.59 were already able to efficiently one shot other tanks by simply hitting their ammo rack or aim on a spot where your shell can take out most of the crew. I don't think killing someone with one shot is something new to War Thunder in both ground and air.

 

(ps: red text is for mods only)

Edited June 26, 2016 by *Arkel-99

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

Leopard 1A6, Keiler (technically 2K), Jaguar. Why do German suggestions have to year gap so much? Not to mention, always playing the same heartstrings and it'll get positively voted all to hell because of whining about the same bull **** mythical oppression.

 

Just because it says SACLOS doesn't mean it's equal to far older SACLOS missiles. The HOT missile is far more advanced compared to both the Dragon and the Shillelagh missile. It's superior in guidance, range, and massively in penetrative performance. You realize asking for things like the Jaguar opens opportunities for the addition of vehicles like the Shturm-S, right? Something that can attack upwards of four kilometers further? Hey, it's okay because it's 1979, right? No. It isn't. Stop year-gapping the hell out of the game or you'll end up in a far worse scenario than having a inferior ATGM vehicle. You'll end up with an inferior MBT, ATGM, SPAAG, and air force. 

 

Maybe if you want a SACLOS ATGM, suggest (rather support an already suggested one) the KPz-70. You'll get an SACLOS ATGM that isn't xxxx absurd. Best thing about it? It doesn't year gap the game all to hell and actually has contemporaries!

Edited June 27, 2016 by Choogleblitz

[ValkyrieLitewing 1,659]

1978. No thanks. Cutoff is '70 this is nearly 10 years past. So no thanks

[Arkel-99@psn 1,030]

Leopard 1A6, Keiler (technically 2K), Jaguar. Why do German suggestions have to year gap so much? Not to mention, always playing the same heartstrings and it'll get positively voted all to hell because of whining about the same bull **** mythical oppression.

 

Just because it says SACLOS doesn't mean it's equal to far older SACLOS missiles. The HOT missile is far more advanced compared to both the Dragon and the Shillelagh missile. It's superior in guidance, range, and massively in penetrative performance. You realize asking for things like the Jaguar opens opportunities for the addition of vehicles like the Sturm-S, right? Something that can attack upwards of four kilometers further? Hey, it's okay because it's 1979, right? No. It isn't. Stop year-gapping the hell out of the game or you'll end up in a far worse scenario than having a inferior ATGM vehicle. You'll end up with an inferior MBT, ATGM, SPAAG, and air force. 

 

Maybe if you want a SACLOS ATGM, suggest (rather support an already suggested one) the KPz-70. You'll get an SACLOS ATGM that isn't xxxx absurd. Best thing about it? It doesn't year gap the game all to hell and actually has contemporaries!

 

Well I am sorry for suggesting something that is German and I'm sorry if it made you mad? Anyway, I saw a lot of people supporting the FV438 for the British using the Swingfire missile (SACLOS) which has the same pen value (800mm) as the HOT missile and the same range (4000m) but the Jaguar 1 is all of the sudden some kind of OP thing that kills everything it sees in a blink of an eye?

 

 

Comparison

 

IT-1 - 3M7

• Guidance: SACLOS
• Range: 3000m
• Speed: 220 m/s
• Pen: 500mm
• Year: 1968

 

M551 Sheridan - MGM-61B Shillelagh

• Guidance: SACLOS
• Range: 3000m
• Speed: 323 m/s
• Pen: 431mm
• Year: 1969

RakJPz Jaguar 1 - HOT

• Guidance: SACLOS
• Range: 4000m
• Speed: 240 m/s
• Pen: 800mm
• Year: 1978

FV438 Swingfire - Swingfire

• Guidance: SACLOS
• Range: 4000m
• Speed: 185 m/s
• Pen: 800mm
• Year: 1970ies

If I compare it with the IT-1, M551 and the (possible) FV438 the stats look very similar. The HOT missile would still be much slower than the MGM-61B Shillelagh and only a bit faster than the 3M7. The 1000m extra range shouldn't matter much, its not like most people will snip across such distances in game all the time (trees, hills..). The 800mm pen also shouldn't really matter that much either, all other ATGM's are currently capable of penning anything nonetheless. As of the year it was built, it was 1978 and it was stated in a Q&A with the CEO that Ground Forces will go until the 1970ies, which means till 1979

 

Source: http://warthunder.co...275/current/#18

 

 

1978. No thanks. Cutoff is '70 this is nearly 10 years past. So no thanks

 

No cutoff is 1970ies, which means till 1979

 

Source: http://warthunder.co...275/current/#18

[Choogleblitz 10,205]

You know what's contemporary of the late 70's? Shturm-S. It can have 720 penetration and almost 7km of range. Really want to justify something being in the 70's as balanced? T-64 (up to B), T-72 (up to A), and T-80 are from the 70's. Not exactly balanced, are they? The reason they set these dates is because there's non-overpowered/power creep vehicles that are from the 70's. Same with aircraft. They put a late year date, but it's meant for aircraft that have the performance of earlier aircraft, yet came out later (Fiat G.91 for example). For vehicles? Leopard 1A1 from the 70's, but nothing insane (like HOT missiles). Suggestions like this is what put us in the powercreep meta to begin with. Mid-60's MBT's were a bad suggestion, but they got added to the game. It now forces the game into ATGM's, and eventually composites. There will never be balance, and the further you go in the timeline, the further balance swings into the Soviet force's favour. 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Choogleblitz

[Arkel-99@psn 1,030]

You know what's contemporary of the late 70's? Sturm-S. It can have 800 penetration and almost 8km of range. Really want to justify something being in the 70's as balanced? T-64 (up to B), T-72 (up to A), and T-80 are from the 70's. Not exactly balanced, are they? The reason they set these dates is because there's non-overpowered/power creep vehicles that are from the 70's. Same with aircraft. They put a late year date, but it's meant for aircraft that have the performance of earlier aircraft, yet came out later (Fiat G.91 for example). For vehicles? Leopard 1A1 from the 70's, but nothing insane (like HOT missiles). 

 

Yes but the Jaguar 1 isn't exactly a 'power creep' as its more similar to the IT-1 and M551 Sheridan, unlike the RakJPz 2. What makes the HOT missile so insane as the stats increase in range and pen doesn't matter much anyway? All current ATGM's are capable of penning everything nonetheless, and like I said before the 1000m range increase shouldn't make it that people are going to snipe even further. Most of the time you see an enemy anyways he's maybe 2000-3000m away from you. Also I don't mind if the T-64, T-72 or T80 get added, I think the USSR needs some better cold war tanks anyway.

 

PS: I don't know what Strum-S is so if you can send me a PM of it that would be nice.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

Yes but the Jaguar 1 isn't exactly a 'power creep' as its more similar to the IT-1 and M551 Sheridan, unlike the RakJPz 2. What makes the HOT missile so insane as the stats increase in range and pen doesn't matter much anyway? All current ATGM's are capable of penning everything nonetheless, and like I said before the 1000m range increase shouldn't make it that people are going to snipe even further. Most of the time you see an enemy anyways he's maybe 2000-3000m away from you. Also I don't mind if the T-64, T-72 or T80 get added, I think the USSR needs some better cold war tanks anyway.

 

PS: I don't know what Strum-S is so if you can send me a PM of it that would be nice.

I think he meant to write Shturm-S, which is a USSR ATGM carrier from the late 70s. That is my best guess anyway.

[Banelord300 11,943]

No thanks as the power creep is bad enough already.

[Arkel-99@psn 1,030]

I think he meant to write Shturm-S, which is a USSR ATGM carrier from the late 70s. That is my best guess anyway.

 

Well if thats the case than it is a bad comparison because the 9M114M1 (AT-6B) and 9M114M2 (AT-6C) missiles used by the Shturm-S with those specs were made after 1979 so it wouldn't fit the current cut off date. However the ATGM itself could very well be added in the future (entered service in 1979) with the 9M114 AT-6 Spiral missile instead (developed in 1976).

No thanks as the power creep is bad enough already.

 

No power creep, it is very similar to the M551 Sheridan and IT-1 we currently have and to the FV102 Striker / FV438 Swingfire the British might get.

Edited June 27, 2016 by *Arkel-99

[Daddo2 328]

Is the additional armour of composite type or still RHA? That's the decisive question here ;)s

[Arkel-99@psn 1,030]

Is the additional armour of composite type or still RHA? That's the decisive question here ;)s

 

The wiki only says 'upgraded armour' and 'Armour: 50mm' and other sources say it is 'applique armour of steel plates'

 

It's kinda hard for me to find all this information because my English isn't that great. I could try to contact the German Tank Museum of Munster were it is on display and see if they can provide me some information or maybe there's someone else who has been there?

[Daddo2 328]

The wiki only says 'upgraded armour' and 'Armour: 50mm' and other sources say it is 'applique armour of steel plates'

 

It's kinda hard for me to find all this information because my English isn't that great. I could try to contact the German Tank Museum of Munster were it is on display and see if they can provide me some information or maybe there's someone else who has been there?

In that case I'd say YES ;)s

 

I've seen this vehicle for sale on the internet this week :Ds