tanks/vehicles The Addition of Chinese/Taiwanese Ground Forces to the International Client

[Josh_Yong 328]

Here is the aircraft suggestion

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/156688-chinese-aircraft-tech-tree-project/

 

What do Chinese/Taiwanese Ground Forces bring to International War Thunder?

-A small fun tree that you can grind through

-A useful boost to both NATO and WP at T5

-A home for the Type 62 and LVT

-Some more national options for players

-Interesting vehicles that wouldn't fit in other trees

 

Yes there is a Chinese tree with air and ground forces on the Chinese client already but...

Yeah.

 

 

What I'm suggesting is a GF tree with more spaced out and proper lines and more original Taiwanese and Chinese Vehicles. 

 

This would also suggested for the Chinese version of war thunder, they can get a tree for their ground forces that is the same quality as the other nations ingame. 

 

See below 

 

Ideas for lines (RB BRs shown)  - All vehicles in the pre existing trees are included

 

 

Live view

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13qFQ3rxCZt3juBvfEx0rnpY4L5YQHtBFFTnDmFdlVto/edit?usp=sharing

 

Who will the Chinese/Taiwanese fight/against with in SB and RB?

The Nationalists would fight with the Americans and who ever they fight with.

The Communists would fight with the Russians and Who ever they fight with.

Using the idea of Name Based MM

 

What to do with the 2 Chinese tanks given out as gifts?

Here are 3 possible solutions

 

1) Just move the tanks to the Chinese Tank Tree (They aren't premiums), anyone who owns them currently will be fastracked to the Tier of the vehicle they own.

 

2) Move the 2 tanks to the Chinese tree, and add 2 new vehicles

 

LVT(A)(4)

Ob'yekt 280 – PT-76 MLRS

 

 

3) Move the vehicles and add different version of the gift vehicles.

 

Type 62-I

LVT(A)(2) Prototype (full turret rotation)

 

 

Some ROC and PRC Tanks:

Type 59

 

Type 69

 

 

 

Type 79

 

Type 58

 

 

M41D

 

Type 63**

 

 

ROC Modified M10

 

WZ-111*

*Turret According to Blueprints, hull was built and preserved.

 

 

WZ-122

 

Type 63**

 

Type 80

 

Type 88

**War Thunder pics of Chinese GF taken from the Chinese client

 

Premium Ideas:

M113 With M24 Turret

 

M4A4 - 1st Provisional Tank Group Burma, 1945.

 

Type 63 (Prototype Taiwanese Version of M41)

 

Type 70 MRL

 

WZ-721*

 

 

CM-21*

*Their prices will be considerable lower than other Tier 4/3 vehicles

Edited February 28, 2017 by Josh_Yong

[CokeSpray 7,272]

Open for discussion.

[Josh_Yong 328]

Thank you.

[Retry 7,363]

No SPAAs until T3 and BR 5.0, a SPAA that isn't particularly different performance-wise from the M42 Duster 1 tier and 1.7 BR above it.

The final SPAA is a ZSU-57-2 look-alike which are useless against actual aircraft.

ROC vehicles like the Type 64 are stuffed in the same tree with PLA tanks (Germany has the same problem but they can at least delay it until T5).

China may be able to get a decent sized naval force, but their air support options are going to be virtually nil.

The above part wouldn't be as much as an issue if, again, China's SPAA options weren't so sparse.

Until China gets to higher tiers, the tech tree is basically "Other people's stuff we had leased or captured".

Around the Cold War era, the tech tree is basically "Russia's stuff that we re-named" except for a select few (e.g. Type 62)

You didn't even have enough content to get 6 T2 vehicles.

 

Anyways, some factual issues:

Quote

-The Chinese GF tree doesn't have a heavy tank line

True, but you barely have a SPAAG line either.

 

The statement is misleading because it implies that China never had or used heavy tanks whatsoever.

 

China had a handful of IS-2s/IS-3s and used the former in the Korean War, and tried to reverse-engineer them into a medium tank.

Quote

-It doesnt have alot “Iconic” vehicles

Stuart, Sherman, Achilles, Hellcat, Jackson, Patton accounted for on the American side.  The Sherman and Patton are arguably some of the most iconic US military ground vehicles ever, with the exception of the Abrams.

 

USSR side has T-34 look-alikes and T-54 look-alikes.  The former is basically the icon of Russia's WWII involvement, and the latter is one of the most recognizable icon of the cold war as well as many oppressive 3rd world dictators.

 

That's quite a few iconic vehicles for a country that didn't start making their own until the '50s.

Quote

-It has less content than the other trees, you WILL get through it quickly

Actually, that's true.

 

However, lack of content is not a selling point.

Quote

-No ATGMs

Yeah, Because you didn't put any in the tree.

 

China has thousands of BMP-1s and later built some of their own as the Type 86.  These were lightly armored and equipped with 73mm low-velocity gun-launchers and could in-fact fire SACLOS ATGMs.

 

China also mounted Malyutka-based HJ-73 missiles from certain platforms like jeeps.

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

Thanks, but no thanks.  Japan was barely able to eek out their own tech tree, and China's options wilts in comparison to Japan's.

Plus, I enjoy where my Type 62 and LVT ZiS are located right now.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Retry

[Da_chief_360 863]

I don't think China really has enough vehicles much less unique ones to make up a tech tree in either air or tanks. Most of the low level stuff will be foreign and the later stuff copies of soviet equipment. All I can see Chinese vehicles being used as gift vehicles again which is not entirely a bad thing as they will still be present in some form.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Da_chief_360

[Josh_Yong 328]

@Retry The reason why China doesn't have a heavy line is because  while yes they had the IS-2, IS-3 and other Cold War heavy tanks, I'm not finding anything for lower tiers. So I left it out for now. Same thing for the BMP and jeep ATGMs. As for the "Not a lot of  iconic vehciels" terrible writing in my part, I apologize. 

 

I'm trying to find more content to add to the tree, I will try to find more lower tier SPAAs, then will find more Armoured cars and Light vehciels to fill a light armoured vehicle line. Thanks for the Critism

 

Could I also get some more information on the ATGM jeeps?

Edited January 16, 2017 by Josh_Yong

[The_Doctor_084 1,583]

It's a good start note the OP states that this whole tree is WiP so cut him some slack, I'm of the opinion that China should have an independent tree and should be on Warsaw Pact side, China being so mountainous is the reason for limited heavy tank designs and while it'd be nice if RoC could be on the NATO/Allied side if they can't do that for Germany in tier V jets then they won't be able to do that in *insert tier here* either.  Just easier to put them on the same side as the Soviets.  The Chinese air tree would be pretty similar fairly sparse and mostly foreign designs but what can you expect when a country that did not have a large industrial base nor any real experience designing or building their own vehicles at the time to have?  It's a good starting place also the gift vehicles will never be moved from their original tree but they'd appear again in the Chinese tree so I'd suggest adding a third option.

[Retry 7,363]

3 minutes ago, RexLuporum said:

It's a good start note the OP states that this whole tree is WiP so cut him some slack, I'm of the opinion that China should have an independent tree and should be on Warsaw Pact side, China being so mountainous is the reason for limited heavy tank designs and while it'd be nice if RoC could be on the NATO/Allied side if they can't do that for Germany in tier V jets then they won't be able to do that in *insert tier here* either.  Just easier to put them on the same side as the Soviets.  The Chinese air tree would be pretty similar fairly sparse and mostly foreign designs but what can you expect when a country that did not have a large industrial base nor any real experience designing or building their own vehicles at the time to have?  It's a good starting place also the gift vehicles will never be moved from their original tree but they'd appear again in the Chinese tree so I'd suggest adding a third option.

The Mountains and stuff are all inland china, and nobody lives there or cares anyways.  The reason China doesn't have any heavy tanks is because china didn't develop any tanks at all until post-'45, by which time the MBT had already taken over.

[The_Doctor_084 1,583]

There are plenty of people that live in inland China XD also have you google earthed coastal China it's pretty mountainous XD

[dotEXCEL 5,968]

+1 but is i see this China woulb be a high tier nation only. so i dont have high expectations

[Solid_Snake01 974]

I wonder what brought this idea oh maybe because Gaijin just added Chinese premium tanks. Also looks like you added Taiwan tanks to the Chinese tech tree you might want to tread lightly with that one because your in a minefield when Taiwanese players see this they will flip a table.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

9 hours ago, Retry said:

The Mountains and stuff are all inland china, and nobody lives there or cares anyways.  The reason China doesn't have any heavy tanks is because china didn't develop any tanks at all until post-'45, by which time the MBT had already taken over.

Well there was one Chinese attempt at a heavy tank, the WZ-111

It never reached completion as far as I know, with only the hull being fully built.

Edited January 16, 2017 by Mercedes4321

[DoLhades 361]

I'd like to add the Vickers 6 ton Mark B to the list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_6-Ton

 

They also used the BMP-1.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

Just now, DoLhades said:

I'd like to add the Vickers 6 ton Mark B to the list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_6-Ton

 

They also used the BMP-1.

How good was the short barreled 3 pounder on the Vickers 6 ton by the way?

[DoLhades 361]

Just now, Mercedes4321 said:

How good was the short barreled 3 pounder on the Vickers 6 ton by the way?

 

Good enough

It's already in the game with the Vickers Independent on the British tree

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

Just now, DoLhades said:

 

Good enough

It's already in the game with the Vickers Independent on the British tree

Are you sure? It looks far shorter than the one on the Independent

 

[DoLhades 361]

The gun was produced in two variants

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OQF_3-pounder_gun

 

Likely the B has a poorer version of it, but it should be good enough!

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

Just now, DoLhades said:

The gun was produced in two variants

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OQF_3-pounder_gun

 

Likely the B has a poorer version of it, but it should be good enough!

Well looking around I found that this very short barreled version penetrated 25mm of amour at 500m

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2016/11/vickers-e-bestselling-export.html

[Josh_Yong 328]

@DoLhades I've added it as the start for the heavy tank line at 1.0, thanks for you input.

@Solid_Snake01 I kinda realized that too, to try and get around this, there are 2 lines in the tree that are pure PRC/ROC.

[Lord_Waka 1,932]

Hi

 

While not personnally not being in favor of a independant Chinese tech tree (too few original content in my opinion), I would like to share with you a very little-known light tank, that was operated only by China (altough designed and produced in France), and that could be one (or even two) potential reserve for your tree: The Renault ZB

 

 

The Renault ZB was an export vehicle developped by Renault on the base of the VM, alias AMR 35, a very light recon tank (considered as a armored car by the french army) that enterred production during 1935

 

In comparison to the original VM, the Renault ZB was significantly weakened, as the french Minister of War only accepted selling of vehicles that were not as powerful as their french counterparts. Therefore, the original 82hp engine was replaced by a 65hp one, and the already terrible armor was even thinner, with 9mm maximum, instead of 13. However, the cooling was reported as very efficient. 

 

12 of those vehicles were ordered by the Kuomintang during March 1936, in addition to 10 Renault UE, and the Yunnan Clique (allied with Kuomintang but still vastly independant) apparently ordered four others at the same date. 

 

Yunnan vehicles were delivered safely in October 1938, their armament is unknown. The vehicles ordered by the Kuomintang had a more complicated history: The french intended to deliver them during 1938-1939, but kept them in Indochina due to tensions with Imperial Japan. A couple were delivered in February 1940, followed by height in June of the same year. The fate of the two other ones is unclear

 

Out of those 12 vehicles, 6 were supposed to be armed with a 13.2mm Hotchkiss machine-gun (which, funnily enough, is the same heavy machine-gun as the one used by Japan) and 6 other with short 37mm guns (SA 18). There is photographic proof of 13.2mm-armed vehicles existing and being put in service, but as of today, I haven't ever saw a picture of a 37mm-armed vehicle. It is confirmed 6 37mm SA 18 adapted for use in Renault light tanks were ordered to Schneider during March 1936, along with diverse shells (1500 HE, 1500 HE-T, 3000 AP and 300 TP). It is likely they were delivered and mounted, but as said previously, there is no photographic proof to confirm that.

 

Outside of the picture posted above, a single other one of the ZB exist on the Internet. It comes from a example of Life, published in March 1942, showing a Chinese Renault ZB armed with a 13.2mm machine-gun in service in Burma:

 

 

I do have another picture of a Renault ZB in one of my books, however, it's just a factory photo, that barely teach us anything on the vehicle itself.

 

I think if we may find data (Which could exist in french archives, that have already been visited by the french tech tree team), this vehicle could be a pretty interesting one for your project. It is surely more original than any of your Tiers 1 vehicle, and can even come in two versions.

[Josh_Yong 328]

@Lord_Waka Thank you for your contribution, I'll add the 37mm armed Renault ZB in the light tank line. The 13.2mm MG armed version will be a premium.

[Zindy005 67]

we need a Chinese tech tree, they have some of the best post war tanks!

[DoLhades 361]

Glad to see it added

 

As a guy involved with the British extended tree if I come across any lend lease British vehicles I will let you know!

[seadogpirate@psn 888]

yes I support this and maybe you can fluff  out the tree with north korean and southeast asia vehicles

[Josh_Yong 328]

@*seadogpirate I think Korean Vehicles would  be more useful in the ITT

@DoLhades Would you happen to have any information about the Vickers 12 Ton tank? It's mentioned that China used it but, the type is unclear.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Josh_Yong