ground vehicles Type 5 Ke-Ho, Japan's last light tank of WW2

[Tasty95215 2,099]

So I was looking up stuff on the 47mm that the Ke-Ho used, and I found a mention of it here: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/一式四十七粍戦車砲#派生型

 

According to this, after the Type 1 47mm (the gun that's on the Chi-Ha Kai and the Chi-He), an improved version known as the Type 1 47mm Model II (一式四十七粍戦車砲II型) was developed in 1943. The main changes described is the change from the shoulder-mounted aiming method to a steering-wheel type control, an added periscope for the gunner, and a couple other things. This was used on the Chi-He. In-game, the only change would be that the Chi-He would lose its "locking" feature, which is a bit of a downside. However, as far as the penetration and muzzle velocity is concerned, it seems that nothing actually changed.

 

Developed from the Model II, there was the Experimental 47mm Short Tank Gun (試製四十七粍（短）戦車砲). This was described as having -15 degrees gun depression, 20 degrees gun elevation, and a horizontal traverse of 10 degrees to the left and to the right (presumably for the ballpoint gun mount mechanism). However, the big change would be that the muzzle velocity decreased by quite a lot, going from the 822 m/s that the Type 1 47mm has down to 740 m/s, which would noticeably decrease the penetration. Besides that though, nothing else about the gun's performance was described, other than this gun was considered for the Type 5 Ho-Ru as well.

 

It's a bit of a moot point considering that the Ke-Ho was apparently tested with the much larger 57mm gun as well, so the regular Type 1 47mm would've been able to fit as well.

 

In any case, the sources for that Wikipedia page are given as these, though the section on the Short 47mm wasn't sourced. Maybe it's mentioned in the file? I don't know, I can barely read Japanese:

• 「昭和18年度一技研修正研究計画」 Ref.A03032214000
•  国本康文 「一式中戦車図面集(上巻)」 page 12

Edited May 16, 2018 by Tasty95215

[aizenns 3,590]

On 2018/5/16 at 14:52, Tasty95215 said:

昭和18年度一技研修正研究計画」 Ref.A03032214000

This is research plan modifies in 1943.

This plan says 57mm (long) is for Chi-To, and 47mm tank gun (velocity: 740 m/s) is for "New Light Tank" (maybe Ke-Ho)

 

These are translation of this document PDF page 8.

Spoiler

Quote

Type 1, 47mm tank gun modify

modifies

1. shoulder pad aiming → steering wheel aiming

2. Ignition system mainly electronic ignition, and sub is manual (rope?)

3. Add gunner periscope

4. Along "1" modify shield

 

Project start: June 1943

Production blueprint complete: August 1943

Quote

 

47mm tank gun

47mm tank gun for new light tank (新軽戦車)

Use ammunition is same to 47mm anti-tank gun

Velocity: 740 (m/s)

Elevation angle: +20° ~ -15°

Horizontal angle: 10°

 

Project complete: March 1945

 

Quote

 

57mm tank gun

57mm tank gun for New Medium Tank (Ko)^{note: New Medium Tank (Ko) means Chi-To}

Project complete: March 1945

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2018 by aizenns

[Querulous1 3,276]

Good documentation, I hope something comes of this

[Tasty95215 2,099]

You know, compared to the B1's 47mm gun, the short 47mm tank gun that the Ke-Ho used doesn't seem like it would be too bad:

The B1 has a muzzle velocity of 660 m/s with its AP shell, resulting in 69mm of penetration at 10 meters.

In comparison, the Japanese short 47mm has a muzzle velocity of 740 m/s and fires APHE. Taking into account that solid AP shells have more penetration than APHE fired from the same gun, the short 47mm should probably be around the same penetration. Well, probably anyways.

[_qaz_ 675]

11 hours ago, Tasty95215 said:

You know, compared to the B1's 47mm gun, the short 47mm tank gun that the Ke-Ho used doesn't seem like it would be too bad:

The B1 has a muzzle velocity of 660 m/s with its AP shell, resulting in 69mm of penetration at 10 meters.

 In comparison, the Japanese short 47mm has a muzzle velocity of 740 m/s and fires APHE. Taking into account that solid AP shells have more penetration than APHE fired from the same gun, the short 47mm should probably be around the same penetration. Well, probably anyways.

 

I wouldn't assume too quickly that Ke-Ho used the shorter 47mm in the end. The turret was large enough to accommodate the standard 47mm.

There also seems to have been some sort of Type5 47mm Tank Gun. I'm unsure what that is. Maybe it is the service name of the short 47mm.

 

 

PRODUCTION PLANS FOR OSAKA ARSENAL. REPORT NO. 45K(6)

[Optical_Ilyushin 5,554]

not sure how I missed this suggestion, +1  I cannot wait for my 47mm LT platform

[Tasty95215 2,099]

Found some more stuff on the short 47mm. Here's a picture, from http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/Ke-Ho.html

 

 

Also, according to http://combat1.sakura.ne.jp/5SHIKI-K.htm, the gun was an L/48 (as compared to the normal 47mm Type 1, which was L/53.7)

 

It's worth mentioning that Taki's site does mention that it was eventually decided to replace the short 47mm with the Type 1 47mm.

[Optical_Ilyushin 5,554]

2 hours ago, Tasty95215 said:

Found some more stuff on the short 47mm. Here's a picture, from http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/Ke-Ho.html

 

 

Also, according to http://combat1.sakura.ne.jp/5SHIKI-K.htm, the gun was an L/48 (as compared to the normal 47mm Type 1, which was L/53.7)

 

It's worth mentioning that Taki's site does mention that it was eventually decided to replace the short 47mm with the Type 1 47mm.

 

so we could arguably have a Ke Ho 1st prototype and a Ke Ho 2nd prototype?

[Tasty95215 2,099]

10 minutes ago, Optical_Ilyushin said:

 

so we could arguably have a Ke Ho 1st prototype and a Ke Ho 2nd prototype?

 

There was only 1 prototype as far as I know, they just swapped the guns. However, having multiple versions of the same tank would definitely be possible. Maybe they'd be called the "Type 5 Ke-Ho" and the "Type 5 Ke-Ho (short)"?

 

Actually, having more than one Ke-Ho would be a nice way to extend Japan's light tank line. We could even throw in the long 57mm variant too.

Edited June 27, 2018 by Tasty95215

[Optical_Ilyushin 5,554]

On 27/06/2018 at 01:58, Tasty95215 said:

 

There was only 1 prototype as far as I know, they just swapped the guns. However, having multiple versions of the same tank would definitely be possible. Maybe they'd be called the "Type 5 Ke-Ho" and the "Type 5 Ke-Ho (short)"?

 

Actually, having more than one Ke-Ho would be a nice way to extend Japan's light tank line. We could even throw in the long 57mm variant too.

 

did it field a long 57mm at any point?

[Tasty95215 2,099]

On 28/06/2018 at 09:52, Optical_Ilyushin said:

 

did it field a long 57mm at any point?

 

Supposedly the Ke-Ho was tested for a short time with it, although I haven't actually seen any sources saying that.

[aizenns 3,590]

Experimental 47mm tank gun (short)

試製四十七粍戦車砲(短)

 

from Taki’s tweets (he says from NARA)

Edited July 1, 2018 by aizenns

[Tasty95215 2,099]

On 17/03/2018 at 16:30, Tasty95215 said:

Regarding the 57mm gun that the Ke-Ho was tested with, here's the penetration data taken as compared with the 47mm. This is from Rikugun. Volume 2: Weapons of the Imperial Japanese Army & Navy Ground Forces page 94:

 

  Quote

47mm Type 1 AT APHE:

• 70mm at 250m
• 64mm at 500m
• 58mm at 750m
• 52mm at 1000m
• 47mm at 1250m
• 41mm at 1500m
• 33mm at 2000m
• 25mm at 2500m
• 19mm at 3000m

 

57mm Type 1 Experimental APHE:

• 78mm at 250m
• 70mm at 500m
• 65mm at 750m
• 60mm at 1000m
• 56mm at 1250m
• 52mm at 1500m
• 46mm at 2000m
• 40mm at 2500m
• 34mm at 3000m

 

 

The original image of that page, in case people can't see it from the link:

Spoiler

 

Also there were two important points that I forgot to mention about this chart:

• These values are for the anti-tank versions of the 47mm and the 57mm. The tank versions were slightly shorter and had a bit less muzzle velocity, resulting in lower penetration.
• Despite the above, American tests were actually slightly higher than Japanese ones on average, possibly due to Japan using harder steel for their tests. Gaijin seems to be using a mix of American and Japanese penetration tests going by the performance in game.

Finally, I still haven't actually seen any sources indicating that the experimental 57mm tank gun was tested on the Ke-Ho, unfortunately.

[_N4MELESS_ 2,972]

 

 

 

It is 2018 and i need this tank NOW !!!! 

Edited October 18, 2018 by I_NAMELESS_I

[BrentD15@psn 1,116]

On 12/10/2018 at 19:01, I_NAMELESS_I said:

 

It is 2018 and i need this tank NOW !!!! 

It's like a miniature Chi-He with the back-end of a Ke-Ni.

Edited October 14, 2018 by *BrentD15

[The_Strafer 131]

On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 15:35, *BrentD15 said:

It's like a miniature Chi-He with the back-end of a Ke-Ni.

That's precisely what it is.

[_N4MELESS_ 2,972]

So after i read some of your comments and i noticed that this tank was perhaps tested with 57mm gun. So i went back and made a new one, this time i  added another version with 57mm gun.

Btw i mistyped Ke-To instead of Ke-Ho for the 57mm gun version -.-''

Edited October 18, 2018 by I_NAMELESS_I

[BrentD15@psn 1,116]

1 hour ago, I_NAMELESS_I said:

So after i read some of your comments and i noticed that this tank was perhaps tested with 57mm gun. So i went back and made a new one, this time i  added another version with 57mm gun.

Btw i mistyped Ke-To instead of Ke-Ho for the 57mm gun version -.-''

Your modeling is just exquisite.

[CokeSpray 7,272]

Suggestion passed to the developers for consideration.