ground vehicles Sd.Kfz. 10/4 SPAAG with Flak 30

[Alphanoodle 526]

Spoiler

I know this has been suggested before here: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/269731-sdkfz10-flak-spaag/ but the suggestion doesnt specify what version of the Sd.Kfz. 10 it was (either flak 30 or 38) and both images are from the Flak 38 version so i think creating a new suggestion with a poll that actually specifies the Flak 30 version is allowed in this case... i guess ^^  and his suggestion is also not listed in the "list of previously suggested ideas and topics" anyway lets get started!

 

Forget about the Opel Maultier that i suggested, to "solve" the overkill that the Flak 38 produces at its BR, i found something much more fitting! Meet the Sonderkraftfahrzeug 10/4 mit Flugabwehrkanone 30! A german SPAAG first produced in 1939 to protect Hans and his friends from all those polish and french (and later on even soviet) aircraft. Keep in mind, this thing was NOT equipped with the Flak 38 that we see on most German SPAAGs but the Flak 30 that was in basically all aspects inferior to the 38 and would thus be much more suitable for tier 1! 

 

Images: From the shape of the gunshield you can tell if it was eqipped with the Flak 30 or 38

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History:

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This vehicle was standard Sd.Kfz.10 mounted with special rear superstructure with folding sides to allow full traverse for 20mm Flak 30/38 L/112.5 gun. This vehicle was one of the first air-defence vehicles in use by Germans.

In July of 1939, first 370 Sd.Kfz.10/4 were produced and in 1940, additional 1225 vehicles were produced. From October of 1940 to March of 1942, production continued at the rate of 20 to 25 vehicles a month. In 1941, 20mm Flak 30 gun of Sd.Kfz.10/4 was replaced with newer 20mm Flak 38 gun and the vehicle was redesignated as Sd.Kfz.10/5. Last 962 Sd.Kfz.10/5 were produced from 1943 to November of 1944 by Mechanische Werke in Cottbus.

My History sections suck i know.

 

Specifications: 

Armament: 

20mm Flak 30 - 240 round capacity however it usually carried Sd.Ah. 51 - Sonderanhänger - special single-axle trailer with 640 more rounds

Rate of fire: around 280 round per minute cyclic with the standard 20 round magazine (the Flak 38 has 480 RPM in comparison)

360° traverse and -12° to +90° elevation

Ammunition: there's very little data on ammo of the Flak 30 but judging from the muzzle velocity, it most likely uses the same kinds of ammo as the Flak 38. However, since the Flak 30 entered production in 1934 it might not receive the Panzergranate 40 (APCR/HVAP-T) round.

Propulsion: 

The vehicle had a weight of around 5.5 tons (12 125,42ibs) and was powered by the Maybach HL42TRKM 6-cylinder engine putting out up to 100 HP. It had a top speed of 65 km/h (40mph) and with almost 20 hp/ton it should be pretty fast overall.

Armour:

It only really had structural steel but the gunshield of the Flak 30 was around 8mm thick - would suffer from hull-break!

It would probably get 3 crew members - 1x driver, 1x commander and 1x gunner

Dimensions:

Lenght: 4.75m

Width: 1.93 - 2.15m

Height: 2.00m

 

Conclusion: The Flak 38 on the Flakpanzer 1 and so forth is pretty overkill right now. Extremely effective in both shooting down aircraft and in the AT-role, so i want to change that! The Flak 30 might not receive the HVAPT round and due to the much lower RoF it would be much worse in the AA role as well. So what do you think? A vehicle that needs to added in order to finally nerf German low-tier SPAA a bit or do you think the Flak 30 is too weak or something like that? Leave your thoughts down below, vote on the poll and sorry for any minor grammar mistakes, my first language is german :3

Sources:

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http://www.kfzderwehrmacht.de/Hauptseite_deutsch/Kraftfahrzeuge/Deutschland/Demag/le__Zgkw__1t/Sd__Kfz__10-4/sd__kfz__10-4.html

http://www.fahrzeuge-der-wehrmacht.de/Artikel/Zgkw_1t.html

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/2cm-flak-30-auf-fahrgestell-zugkraftwagen-1t-sdkfz104.htm

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=441

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sd.Kfz._10#Sd.Kfz._10.2F4_and_10.2F5

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-cm-Flak_30#Munition

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sd.Kfz._10

 

 

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

Open for Discussion.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

Is this a 10/4 or a 10/5?

Spoiler

 

[Dundee93 508]

2 hours ago, Alphanoodle said:

It would probably get 3 crew members - 1x driver, 1x commander and 1x gunner

I count 4 in your picture. 

 

Nice, very well laid out suggestion, and adding the Flak 30 version is a good call. I'd like to see many more half-track and truck SPAA systems in the game. +1

[Alphanoodle 526]

On 17.10.2017 at 8:55 PM, Mercedes4321 said:

Is this a 10/4 or a 10/5?

It's a 10/5

the 10/5 is the one with the Flak 38 that they started producing from 1941 onwards even tho the far superior Flak 38 was already in 1939 available. Guess they really liked their Flak 30s ^^

On 17.10.2017 at 8:57 PM, Dundee93 said:

I count 4 in your picture.

thats the reason why i wrote "probably".

The thing is, the Flakpanzer 38(t) actually had 4 crew members IRL but in the game we only get 2 and since this thing is gonna get a BR something around 1.0-1.3 it should be easy to kill so i assume it would get 3 crew members. There is of course more than enough room for a loader as well so... if our almighty god Gaijilla decides to add mah Flak 30 we'll see ^^

Spoiler

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Alphanoodle

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

Just now, Alphanoodle said:

It's a 10/4

the 10/5 is the one with the Flak 38 that they started producing from 1942 onwards even tho the far superior Flak 38 was already in 1939 available. Guess they really liked their Flak 30s ^^

thats the reason why i wrote "probably".

The thing is, the Flakpanzer 38(t) actually had 4 crew members IRL but in the game we only get 2 and since this thing is gonna get a BR something around 1.0-1.3 it should be easy to kill so i assume it would get 3 crew members. There is of course more than enough room for a loader as well so... if our almighty god Gaijilla decides to add mah Flak 30 we'll see ^^

  Reveal hidden contents

 

If you have evidence that the Flakpanzer 38(t) had 4 crew members, you should make a bug report.

[Mercedes4321 4,695]

20 minutes ago, Alphanoodle said:

It's a 10/4

the 10/5 is the one with the Flak 38 that they started producing from 1942 onwards even tho the far superior Flak 38 was already in 1939 available. Guess they really liked their Flak 30s ^^

So the vehicle in the image I posted was a 10/4? Nice to know.

[Alphanoodle 526]

12 minutes ago, SAUBER_KH7 said:

If you have evidence that the Flakpanzer 38(t) had 4 crew members, you should make a bug report.

The thing is, the vehicle was first produced in 1944 and was mainly used on the western front. At that point in time the single Flak 38 wasnt enough to effectively shoot down allied fighter-bombers such as the thunderbolt anymore and therefore, became easy prey for them. But because the vehicle had up to -5° negative gun depression, it was quite commonly used against infantry. In this role you didnt need a 360° turret traverse and therefore the vehicle usually had 4 crew members (commander and loader). In its role in WT however, the vehicle must have a 360° traverse and there's simply not enough room  on the back to house these 2 extra crew men when you're actually using it as SPAAG. In the game 2 crew members make the most sense so a bug report isnt needed.

 

2 minutes ago, Mercedes4321 said:

So the vehicle in the image I posted was a 10/4?

Actually the shape of the gun shield tells us that it is a 10/5 with a Flak 38. The first image in the spoiler is one with a flak 38. Note that the gun shield has this "curve" about in the middle of the shield. Now compare it to the second image, where the curve is much higher up and its also at a much greater angle. You can see it even better in the last image. Hope i could help you ^^

Spoiler

<--- there's also the trailer with extra ammunition here ^^

 

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

1 minute ago, Alphanoodle said:

The thing is, the vehicle was first produced in 1944 and was mainly used on the western front. At that point in time the single Flak 38 wasnt enough to effectively shoot down allied fighter-bombers such as the thunderbolt anymore and therefore, became easy prey for them. But because the vehicle had up to -5° negative gun depression, it was quite commonly used against infantry. In this role you didnt need a 360° turret traverse and therefore the vehicle usually had 4 crew members (commander and loader). In its role in WT however, the vehicle must have a 360° traverse and there's simply not enough room  on the back to house these 2 extra crew men when you're actually using it as SPAAG. In the game 2 crew members make the most sense so a bug report isnt needed.

 

Actually the shape of the gun shield tells us that it is a 10/5 with a Flak 38. The first image in the spoiler is one with a flak 38. Note that the gun shield has this "curve" about in the middle of the shield. Now compare it to the second image, where the curve is much higher up and its also at a much greater angle. You can see it even better in the last image. Hope i could help you ^^

  Hide contents

<--- there's also the trailer with extra ammunition here ^^

 

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

[xX_Lord_James_Xx 2,400]

+1, more OP low tier German HVAP AAA  

 

Jokes and memes aside, this would be nice tabbed into the FlaK 38(t) (or vice versa: tab the FlaK into the 10/4). 

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

sure why not? +1

[Milocat 4,857]

+1 for another low-tier SPG.

[Woody_Wetter 145]

Sd.Kfz.10/5 - with armored cabin weighted around 5.5 tons

 

The more common non armored version is around 4 tons! 

[Ghostmaxi 873]

On 17/10/2017 at 18:35, Alphanoodle said:

there's very little data on ammo of the Flak 30 but judging from the muzzle velocity, it most likely uses the same kinds of ammo as the Flak 38. However, since the Flak 30 entered production in 1934 it might not receive the Panzergranate 40 (APCR/HVAP-T) round.

They have the exact same 20×138 mm ammo , but the barrles have different length , also i know a document that lists the 20 mm KwK 30 L/55 , 20mm KwK 38 L/55 20 mm flak 30 and 38 L/65 all got the same ammo and apcr 

, the 20 mm MG c/30 L is also the same , just the KriegsMarine designation , it is in game on the He 112 A-0 .

Ammo ApI-T Ap-T He-T HeI-T , minengeschoss and Practise but that is irrelevant  

[Solarmod 1,204]

I'd love to see this, I need more half tracks for Germany, +1 from me. 

[ThunderGod985@psn 16]

+1 Would make for an interesting low tier SPAA

[Clangokkuner 253]

There is no option for "German tree is ridiculously bloated and it does not need any more vehicles when other trees are totally lacking vehicles".