aircraft/loadouts Breguet 690/693 - "Guppy" of the Sky

[StalinsPimpCane 77]

Hallo!

 

With the introduction of the French Air Force in WT, I noticed one particular plane that was the bane of my existence within a strategy game named "R.U.S.E." This plane was known as the "Guppy," a nickname given to the Breguet 690. The Breguet 690 was a series of light ground attack aircraft which first flew in 1938, and resembled the Beaufighter in some respects. Its design was started in 1934, along with the aircraft that would be used more than it, the Potez 630. As stated by Wikipedia; "The aircraft was intended to be easy to maintain, forgiving to fly, and capable of 480 km/h (300 mph) at 4,000 m (13,120 ft). The type's sturdy construction was frequently demonstrated and the armament was effective." There were 230 aircraft created.

 

 

The operational history of the 690 and 693 was not spectacular, but when has that ever stopped a vehicle in WT? :P

 

" On 12 May, GBAs I/54 and II/54 performed the Breguet's first operational sorties, against German motorized columns in the Maastricht-Tongeren-Bilsen area. German anti-aircraft fire was so devastating that only eight of the eighteen Bre.693s returned.

 

The disastrous results of this first engagement forced the French commanders to reconsider their tactics. Until 15 May, GBA crews performed shallow dive attacks from higher altitude, which resulted in reduced losses, but the attacks had clearly been inaccurate, as the Breguets lacked a bombsight, and they increased vulnerability to German fighters. On subsequent missions, the GBAs re-introduced low-level attacks, but with smaller formations. As the position of the French and Allied armies grew steadily more desperate, the assault groups were engaged daily, still enduring losses to anti-aircraft fire, but also increasingly to German fighters.

 

In late June, the Armée de l'Air tried to evacuate its modern aircraft to North Africa, out of German reach, from where many hoped to continue the fight. However, the short-ranged Breguets were not able to cross the Mediterranean. Unlike other modern French types, the Breguet 690 family saw its combat career end with the Armistice." - Wikipedia

 

 

For the armament of the aircraft;

 

" The Breguet 693 was armed with three guns in the nose (one 20mm cannon and two 7.5mm machine guns), each angled down by 15 degrees to aid strafing. A small bomb bay replaced the navigator's position of the Br 690" (Rickard, J).

 

Engine: Two Gnôme & Rhône 14M6/7 14-cylinder air-cooled radials
Power: 700hp each
Crew: 2
Wing span: 50ft 6in (15.4m)
Length: 31ft 10in (9.7m)
Height: 10ft 6in (3.2m)
Empty Weight: 6,627lb (3,006kg)
Maximum Weight: 10,785lb (4,892kg)
Max Speed: 304mph (490km/h) at 16,404ft (5,000m)
Service Ceiling: 31,168ft (9,500m)
Range: 939 miles (1,350km)
Armament: Three fixed forward firing guns - one 20mm cannons and two 7.5mm machine guns, one rear-firing 7.5mm machine gun
Bomb-load: 882lb (400kg) in internal bomb bay

(Rickard, J)

 

 

Now for the placement of the aircraft, I believe it would be perfect for around 2.0-2.7 with its armament, supplementing the Potez in the bomber tree or above the Potez in attacker tree. A premium variant might be nice as well, maybe even in Vichy French markings or Luftwaffe markings. This would certainly make an interesting aircraft for War Thunder, given the armament's angling within the nose - I don't think many aircraft incorporate this (?). So, what do you think? Should the "Guppy" be put in?

 

Sources:
 

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_breguet_693.html

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breguet_693

 

http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/breguet-690.php

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by SAUBER_KH7

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

Open for Discussion.

 

I edited the poll to comply with the rules.

 

Quote

- Create polls that don't include a "Negative" or "No" answer

When adding a poll to your suggestion, make sure to ALWAYS include a negative option to a question,so it's fair and unbiased. In case this was not followed,the poll creator will be notified and the poll will be modified to provide a fair voting system.

You have to add a "No" option to each poll option as the Poll requires members to vote for each and every question, not just one.

Edited November 5, 2017 by SAUBER_KH7

[CaID 8,996]

i think we should integrate Vichy france into France country, even as a puppet, it was still france. the match battle can make france battle on the german side sometime and the history will be respected.

 

nice plane, i was about to make that suggestion myself. +1

 

[StalinsPimpCane 77]

3 hours ago, SAUBER_KH7 said:

Open for Discussion.

 

I edited the poll to comply with the rules.

 

You have to add a "No" option to each poll option as the Poll requires members to vote for each and every question, not just one.

 

Thank you very much!

 

I will make sure to remember that for the next suggestion.

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

i shall call this... the Sleaufighter! ya know... cuz its like the beaufighter... but slower... lel...

...kill me.

 

so i'm for both a regular and vichy premium.

a regular because for all the usual reasons. (any chance there were Breguets with free france markings?)

 

and a vichy premium for the only reason that matters- Vichy France...

 

...was still France. and there needs to be premiums at some point.

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in fact, legally the vichy regime WAS the legitimate government of the 3rd Republic of France- now called the French State, Petain having been constitutionally appointed premier by president Albert Lebrun.

so this isn't even an issue of west and east germany.

anyway there's plenty of low tier french planes that could get basically a complementary vichy version in addition to some prototypes and named vehicles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_French_Air_Force

 

it should be noted that the vichy regime continued the use of the red-white-light blue roundel after the armistice, while Free French vehicles used the Lorraine Cross.

 

 

[StalinsPimpCane 77]

2 hours ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

i shall call this... the Sleaufighter! ya know... cuz its like the beaufighter... but slower... lel...

...kill me.

 

so i'm for both a regular and vichy premium.

a regular because for all the usual reasons. (any chance there were Breguets with free france markings?)

 

and a vichy premium for the only reason that matters- Vichy France...

 

...was still France. and there needs to be premiums at some point.

  Reveal hidden contents

in fact, legally the vichy regime WAS the legitimate government of the 3rd Republic of France- now called the French State, Petain having been constitutionally appointed premier by president Albert Lebrun.

so this isn't even an issue of west and east germany.

anyway there's plenty of low tier french planes that could get basically a complementary vichy version in addition to some prototypes and named vehicles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_French_Air_Force

 

it should be noted that the vichy regime continued the use of the red-white-light blue roundel after the armistice, while Free French vehicles used the Lorraine Cross.

 

 

 

I like that nickname, it works perfectly for this aircraft.

 

As for camouflages, the various ones include (I could not find a Free France one with the Lorraine Cross, which odd, but that does not stop the Standard Tree [maybe the Br. 695 or a later model] variant being with it):

 

 

And for the German camouflages, which in my opinion look much more interesting;

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by SilvioBerluscon1

[Dundee93 508]

13 hours ago, SilvioBerluscon1 said:

 

The Breguet 693 was armed with three guns in the nose (one 20mm cannon and two 7.5mm machine guns), each angled down by 15 degrees to aid strafing.

Ah yiss. +1

 

1 hour ago, SilvioBerluscon1 said:

As for camouflages, the various ones include (I could not find a Free France one with the Lorraine Cross, which odd, but that does not stop the Standard Tree [maybe the Br. 695 or a later model] variant being with it):

 

 

And for the German camouflages, which in my opinion look much more interesting;

 

 

 

 

 

Your post mentioned that the Free French Forces could not evacuate these because of their short range. Also, I take back my no vote on the premium Vichy variant. If they actually used them I would support it as premium. 

 

[Xenecrite 899]

here is more detail on their subject

Plan:

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Different Combat Version:

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Source:

Les-AILES-de-GLOIRE-1---Breguet-690-691-693-695-700:http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/biblio/series/ailes_de_gloire/ailes_de_gloire.htm

[ScoAtao 325]

I would LOVE to see it in WT! Imho, the attacker tree can't be complete without the Br.693/695.

As a skinner, I will definitely make some liveries for this bird.

[Arghail 1,220]

I think the Breguet 693 should be in a secondary attack branch in my opinion, that would gather all the ground/sea attack planes of the French tech tree. It would perform nicely at 2.0, accompanied by the Loire-Nieuport 401 at 2.3 maybe, and the Hanriot NC 600.

[BrentD15@psn 1,117]

On 11/5/2017 at 1:13 PM, CaID said:

i think we should integrate Vichy france into France country, even as a puppet, it was still france. the match battle can make france battle on the german side sometime and the history will be respected.

 

nice plane, i was about to make that suggestion myself. +1

 

Why have a completely separate version, when you can just give it an unlockable camo?

[Lucky_B 357]

28 minutes ago, *BrentD15 said:

Why have a completely separate version, when you can just give it an unlockable camo?

No ugly Vichy in the French tree

Edited May 2, 2018 by Lucky_B

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,350]

+1 

 

Also, I loved R.U.S.E on my Xbox 360 but that was back in 2010. Now I don't get to play it

[Slipslime 660]

Something unique and French? Oh man I wish +1

[Arghail 1,220]

I wonder, would the Breguet 697 variant be acceptable in the game? It was basically the same plane with more powerful engines, but in itself it wasn't exactly an operational attack plane. That said, its performances would be even better than the 693.

[DoxerWhite@psn 82]

I'd like to see this as well. +1

[Milocat 4,855]

I would love to fly this!  You have my support.

[NoVegas 36]

The French line needs a lower BR Assault aircraft +1 for me.

[Arghail 1,220]

Here's a picture of the plane's interior :

 

 

 

 

Also, I've found two layout for the bombs, 50 and 100kg:

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by Arghail

[Arghail 1,220]

Here's a couple other photos, one of the cockpit, one for the gunner seat, as well as one with the bomb bay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BrentD15@psn 1,117]

On 05/10/2018 at 08:09, Arghail said:

Here's a couple other photos, one of the cockpit, one for the gunner seat, as well as one with the bomb bay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent!

[Arghail 1,220]

And here is a photo of a bombing run exercise that displays perfectly skimming flight tactic.

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by Arghail

[Atomeur 529]

This plane shot 2 Me109 down and 2or3 Henshell 126 in 1 mission. I am totally agree. +1

Edited June 18, 2019 by Atomeur
precisions

[Arghail 1,220]

Here's a bunch testimonies from former Breguet 693 pilots, told by C-J Ehrengardt, in the magazine Aéro-Journal n°26 (August 2002), that I roughly translated from this website :

 

http://aerostories.free.fr/dossiers/AA/Bre693/

 

Hopefully, this will help better understand the way these planes were used.

 

"17 Breguet 693, distributed among 6 squadrons, flying in echelon on the right side, emerge right above the rooftops of Maastricht. The squadrons split up  right outside the city. Commandant Plou leads his squad above the road that leads to Tongres. Beside him are lieutenant Leleu and lieutenant Blondy. Their target is located somewhere in the 20 km that separate Tongre and Saint-Trond. Right outside Tongres, they see the first German columns. A large convoy, with the front of the trucks painted yellow, and the backs brown, probably to indicate the direction of the march to the recon planes. Even though it's merely May 12th, the direction of this column is already obvious...

 

There is no element of surprise here,  the German are waiting for them. Hard to sneak up on the enemy at the last minute, with a topography so flat. As soon as the planes emerge, the German soldiers jump out of the trucks in the pits on the side of the roads, and open fire on the intruders with their small arms (...)

 

Plou drops 2 bombs on soldiers hidden under trees on the side of the road. His plane is hit a first time, then, impacts are heard everywhere. "Right after that, my plane suddenly bowed toward my left wing. I realized the leading edge of the wing was torn off. I managed to compensate, and went up. The Breguet then  leaned suddenly right, then dove and hit the ground  in a field near the road. My mission was already over. (...)"

 

The Breguet of lieutenant Leleu is set on fire, and he had to go up to allow himself and his gunner to bail out. They're taken prisoner as well. Lieutenant Blondy, although severely damaged, manages to go through the fire, and crash landed on the belly somewhere near Berry-au-Bac"

 

Testimony of second lieutenant  Édouard Henry (GBA II/54) :

 

We reach the west side of Maastricht, filled with troops and armored vehicles. The bridges seem intact. 15 meters above ground, I open fire on Germans with my 404 (20mm canon) and my MAC (7.5mm mgs). I follow the road toward Tongres, and drop my bombs in rows on panzers. I see a Flak canon, and rush toward it to attack it. But I'm showered in shells. the Right engine is on fire, I have to give up. I see a field near my position, and manage to land on the belly, in a cloud of dust." (...) They're both taken prisonners.

 

(next paragraph is about a Breguet which unfortunately crash landed in a wood, and caught fire, and the pilot was unable to rescue his gunner, which died in the crash.)

 

The other squads, beaten up by the AA fire, aren't spared either. Of the 18 Breguet that took of at 12:05, only 8 came home. This first mission was to be a grim realization of the flaws of the French skimming flight assault tactic.

 

In the instruction of march 21, 1940 about the organisation of combined ops between ground attack air forces, genereal Vuillemin, lead commander of the French air force, explains the missions meant for the Breguet 693 are :

 

- Either supporting ground operations or supporting  assault team attacks on the rear of the enemy, mostly in the form of light bombing, and escorted by fighters

 

- Or liaison operations with ground ops behind the enemy line.

 

These attacks must always be about hardware destruction, mostly around roads, or where there's a lot of armored vehicles, during enemy attacks.

 

Although the Breguet can support ground operation, in reality, unlike the Stukas, they will never be used in combat zones. This is a big discrepency between German and French doctrine, which will have a big impact on the battle of France.

 

The help of fighters is difficult to obtain. Radio communication is impossible during flight, no coordination is possible between the protectors and the Breguet which must be protected. Furthermore, the Breguet 693 are too fast for the Morane 406, and their escort is left behind by the formations they're supposed to protect.(...)

 

(After that is a pragraph about the poor communication that plagued the French army, and the lack of use of ground attack aircraft because of it)

 

As for the bombing methods, they evolved through the Battle of France. The first missions, that ended up in a blood bath, forced the Staff to abandon skimming flight and chose horizontal bombing at 900 meters instead. With no sight device equipped to perform such bombings, those missions end up in failures, and Skimming flights are once again used. Same problems, the losses are too high, horizontal bombing is once again used, and finally, starting on June 10th, attacks in semi-dive.

 

(...) the lack of experience in ground attack support leads to grouped formations flying over road axes. Experience showed that flying in wide formations to disperse the AA fire, and attacking the enemy using the topography, perpendicular of the road is more efficient, to maximize the suprise. At this time of the war, it wasn't thought to neutralize AA fire before the bombing ops either, even though that would have been possible with the Forward firing armament of the Breguet 693.

 

Testimony of André Rivet, commandant of the 2nd Squadron of the GBA I/54, who survived the attack of May 12th

 

"Those convoys were heavily defended by AA fire equipped with small canons moiunted on quadruple turrets (anachronism, that kind of AA wasn't used at the time), with one of such AA turret each 4 vehicles. In that condition, how could we attack them following the road ? Because we didn't think we'd face such a fierce AA fire. Also, because it was the most efficient way of dealing spectacular blows. We realized too late it was also the most spectacular way to receive that kind of fire. In this numerical inferiority situation, skimming flight was condemned, and we didn't know it.

 

Why did I manage survive through this ? I flew above grounds that weren't yet occupied, and hid behind the town of Tongres, which allowed me to lead a surprise attack. I attacked first and from the front. On the other side of Maastricht, the other squadrons had been seen by the German and the alert was up. The AA fire was already ready, and the Breguet had to go through a storm of AA fire."

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Arghail

[Arghail 1,220]

Here's another sources for a highly detailed  description (in english!) of the plane's interior :

 

http://www.pangea-systems.com/wwiiws/aircraft/bre.693/final_work/html/interior/interior.htm

 

For example, here's the dashboard (translation in the link):
 

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Another page of the same website, this time for the gunner seat

 

http://www.pangea-systems.com/wwiiws/aircraft/bre.693/final_work/html/interior/interior_02.htm

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Arghail