aircraft/loadouts Morane-Saulnier MS.405 & 406

[CaID 8,996]

I would like to suggest a french light fighter. the Morane-Saulnier MS.405 and 406

 

For most of the interwar period, France, despite the efforts of designers, remained the most conservative country for a long time not wanting to part with the so-so angular biplanes and old-fashioned monoplanes, so beloved from the time of the First World. In the early 1930's. several attempts were made to re-enter the leading positions in the world aircraft industry, but not all of them brought the desired success. After the adoption of the monoplanes of the Dewoitine D.500 and Loire Lo.46 series, Service Technique Aeronautique (STAe) developed in September 1934 a new specification. In accordance with the claimed requirements, it was necessary to create a C1 class fighter with a maximum speed of 450 km / h at an altitude of 4000 meters and with mandatory cannon armament. Five firms have reached the final part of the competition: Loire (LN.250), Liore-Nieuport (Ni.160), Bloch (MB.150), Dewoitine (D.513) and Morane-Saulnier (MS.405). Each of them received an order to build one prototype.

 

The development team at Morane-Saulnier was engaged in a design team led by engineer Gauthier. Of all the fighters represented, the future MS.405 was, perhaps, the most original. The fuselage of the aircraft had basically a design, assembled from steel pipes and duralumin profiles. Its front part was covered with a material called "plymax", which was a layer of plywood glued together with a thin aluminum sheet. The rear part was made in the form of a truss reinforced behind the cabin by braces. Directly the cockpit was completely closed with a transparent lantern with a shifted back middle section. Behind the chair, there was a place for a radio station whose whip antennas were at the bottom and top of the fuselage, with the bottom antenna folding along the fuselage back on the flight. Any armored protection of the pilot was absent, since no requirements to it were presented. The entire rear part of the fighter, up to the cockpit, was lined with linen. For greater rigidity of the tail fins, the stabilizers received additional upper braces, while the height and direction rudders were covered with a cloth. The front part of the fuselage was separated by a fire partition, behind which was placed an unprotected fuel tank. The engine group of the fighter consisted of the V-shaped 12-cylinder engine Hispano-Suiza 12Ygrs with a capacity of 860 hp. and a three-blade metal screw Chavier. Masloradiator, located in the nose itself, successfully fit into the fuselage contours, but to install the water radiator decided to go unconventional. As shown by practice, a high flight speed, even with a small engine, could be achieved by improving the aerodynamic shape of the aircraft. So engineers came to the conclusion that the water radiator should be partially cleaned. Depending on the mode of flight, he could be nominated for the fuselage contours. It was this constructive solution that led to the characteristic bends in the lower part and became one of the distinguishing features of MS.405. The wing of the fighter had a "broken" front edge, since its sweep in the root part was larger than that of the consoles. The wing trim was also made of "plymax". Interesting was the design of the chassis. In the released position, the main stands, equipped with truss breaks, were fixed with pneumatic locks. Cleaning of the chassis was carried out with the help of a hydraulic drive, and the low-pressure wheels were supplied with pneumatic brakes. The tail support instead of a more acceptable wheel was made in the form of a conventional crutch. The fighter's armament consisted of one 20-mm Hispano-Suiza HS9 motor cannon and two 7.5 mm M1934 machine guns. Machine guns placed in the wing, had instead of tape feed drum shops. It is for this reason that at the place of installation of machine guns it was necessary to make characteristic fairings, which became one more distinctive feature of MS.405.

The first prototype MS.405-01 was built in the summer of 1935, but it was difficult to call it a full-fledged fighter, since the rush with its release forced the postponement of the introduction of some constructive solutions. The aircraft was fitted with a temporary non-retractable landing gear, sewing niches for laying the wheels. Armament was also absent. August 8, the famous French pilot Michel Detrooy fly the fighter in the air. The characteristics obtained during the tests were completely unimpressive. Maxime speed was only 447 km / h, and at high altitudes the temperature in the cabin fell to -5 ° (with the temperature behind -39 °). A number of other shortcomings were noted, including high landing speed. After several test flights on MS.405-01, a retractable landing gear, Thompson type 535 radio station (range 60-80 km) and machine guns with fairings were installed. Now, comments about Moran began to acquire a completely positive nature, but it took some time to eliminate the identified defects and general debugging. In December 1935, the second stage of trials began, during which the out-of-date Chavier screw was replaced with a variable pitch Ratiner screw, the mechanization of which included a two-bladed impeller on the coke. To improve stability, the transverse V wing was increased, but all attempts to bring the speed indicators to the required level were in vain. In November 1935 the first prototype was officially acquired by the French government, and in 1936 the firm began construction of the second prototype. After that, in February 1936, MS.405-01 was transferred to the testing center of the French Air Force, but here the test flights were conducted with a whole series of flight incidents. In March 1936, the prototype crashed into the index column, receiving little damage. After the repairs the flights continued, but in July 1937 the pilot Ribier lost consciousness at high altitude due to the failure of oxygen equipment and crashed. Shortly before the crash, MS.405-01 (with civil registration F-AKHZ) was demonstrated at the Aviation Exhibition in Brussels, which took place in June 1937, where he also did not receive rave reviews. Military pilots noted instability in the roll when planning with the engine off, but in flight at low speeds the plane did not cause criticism. At the same time, the maximum speed of the MS.405-01 was 485 km / h, which provided a noticeable separation from the main competitors. The fighter perfectly dived - in one of the test flights it was dispersed to a speed of 730 km / h. Even with the fact that this figure could be overstated, on a dive MS.405 could get away from any fighter of that time. Among the positive qualities noted the strength of the structure and good handling in general.

The second prototype MS.405-02 was ready in the winter of 1937. From the first test car, it differed in the HS 12Ycrs engine with a reducing gear and a screw increased to 3 meters in diameter. In this regard, the racks of the chassis are extended, at the same time finishing their construction and increasing the track. Tests of the second prototype began on January 20, 1937 and already in February the Chavier screw was replaced with an automatic Hispano-Suiza 27M. The maximum speed of the fighter in the first flights was only 443 km / h, but after improvements it was increased to 482 km / h. However, it was not without trouble. During the tests, the prototype spent too much time on repairs. In March 1937, immediately after the airplane was handed over to air force representatives, the test pilot crashed into an index column in MS.405, damaging the forward part of the fuselage. In May the fighter was landed on the belly, and in July the pilot Ribier suffered a catastrophe on this plane because of the failure of oxygen equipment at high altitude. It would seem "moran" is not destined to go beyond the prototype, but life decreed otherwise ...

In June 1937, a second prototype was demonstrated at the aviation festival in Brussels, where MS.405 was declared the "best fighter in the world". The flights on it were spent all the same Detroi, showing the best sides of the fighter, and at the same time flying a part of the way back at a speed of 400 km / h. This idea had the right effect - Morane-Saulnier soon received several beneficial contracts from representatives of other countries, but the main customer was the French Air Force. "Morane" remained one of the two contestants, to which STAe showed benevolence. Even before the disaster of the second prototype, the Ministry of Aviation chose MS.405 as the most acceptable option for replacing obsolete D.501 \ D.510 and biplane fighter jets. Contract No. 274/7 for the supply of an installation lot of 16 aircraft was signed on March 1, 1937. These fighters were supposed to debug mechanization and instrumentation, and the last 16th sample was to become the model for the series.  The first pre-production MS.405 was presented to the customer only after a year. During this time, France adopted a program for the nationalization of the aircraft industry and the firm Morane-Saulnier became a member of the SNCAO concern. These events led to the fact that the French Air Force could not make the transition to new technology during the 1937-1938 period. and had to turn to foreign producers. As a result, the procurement commission, located in the US, with the approval of the government purchased a batch of fighters Curtiss H-75A "Hawk", as well as bombers Martin 167F and Douglas 7B. Somewhat earlier, the option of acquiring Soviet I-16 fighters (most likely "type 10") was discussed, but for political reasons the deliveries of the famous "donkeys" to France were never implemented.

Hopelessly losing time, French specialists had to change plans urgently. Instead of the 16th prototype (it was assembled only in June 1938), the 4th was chosen for serial production. According to the documents, it now passed as MS.406 No. 4 and was equipped with an HS 12Y-31 engine with a new reducer and a lower altitude. In the collapse of the engine's cylinders, it was now possible to install both the old S9 engine gun and the new HS 404. In April 1937 a contract No. 327/7 was signed for the delivery of 35 serial MS.405, but then this amount was corrected to 50 MS. 406. Despite the fact that the French Air Force still accepted MS.405 for armament, in combat squadrons these fighters were not for long. Since 1939, when the mass production of MS.406 began, the aircraft of the older version began to be transferred to aviation schools and research centers. In particular, several MS.405 were sent to CEMA. In May 1940, when active operations began on the Western Front, some of the fighters were at the Salon de Provence airfield, where they were tried to attract for air patrolling. It is not excluded that MS.405 did make combat sorties, but not a single battle with their participation was recorded. After the ceasefire, the Vichy Air Force command conducted a total "sweep" of the aircraft fleet, under which there were not enough MS.405. Initially, the aircraft were sent for temporary storage, and then disassembled.

In fact, there were no significant differences between the MS.405 and MS.406 fighters. The fuselage of the updated airplane was based on a structure assembled from steel pipes and duralumin profiles. Its front part was covered with a material called "plymax", which was a layer of plywood glued together with a thin aluminum sheet. The rear part was made in the form of a truss reinforced behind the cabin by braces. Directly the cockpit of the pilot was completely closed with a transparent lantern with a middle section that was pulled back. Behind the chair, there was a place for a radio station whose whip antennas were at the bottom and top of the fuselage, with the bottom antenna folding along the fuselage back on the flight. The armor protection of the pilot was not available. The entire rear part of the fighter, up to the cockpit, was lined with linen. For greater rigidity of the tail fin, the stabilizers received additional upper posts, while the height and direction controls were also lined with a canvas. The front part of the fuselage was separated by a fire partition, behind which was placed an unprotected fuel tank.The engine of the fighter consisted of a 12-cylinder V-shaped Hispano-Suiza 12Y31 engine (860 hp) with a new reducer and a three-blade metal screw of variable pitch. The oil cooler was located in the bow of the fuselage under the engine. The design of the water radiator did not change - then it was considered that the scheme with release and cleaning (depending on the mode of flight of the fighter) of this element is fully justified. The wing of the fighter had a "broken" front edge, since its sweep in the root part was larger than that of the consoles. The wing panel was made of "plymax". The mechanization included flaps. The chassis is three-legged with a tail crutch. In the released position, the main stands, equipped with truss breaks, were fixed with pneumatic locks. Cleaning of the chassis was carried out with the help of a hydraulic drive, and the low-pressure wheels were supplied with pneumatic brakes. The main pillars along with the wheels were retracted into the niches of the wing consoles, towards the fuselage, and partially covered with shields.The fighter's armament consisted of one 20-mm Hispano-Suiza HS404 engine gun and two 7.5 mm M1934 M39 machine guns, although it was also possible to install an older HS9 gun. Machine guns placed in the wing, as before, were equipped with drum shops with massive fairings in the area of the fracture of the leading edge of the wing. Suspension of bombs, additional fuel tanks or other equipment was not envisaged.

Although it was believed that MS.406 is easy to learn by airplane, it was very rare to put a green pilot at the helm. As a rule, for the beginning the cadet was trained on the ground, then he made flights on the training MS.225 or combat training NiD.62, and only then did MS.406 turn on. This scheme suited far from all, since the old biplanes had a low speed in comparison with the "moran", and the behavior of the aircraft at different speeds, and even more so shooting at moving targets, differed significantly. To accelerate the training of pilots, if possible bypassing the second stage with flights on biplanes, the design bureau Morane-Saulnier developed several training versions of the fighter, one can say, working ahead of schedule. Over time serial version of the MS.406 was built with different armament such as the Ms.410 or the Ms.450. other varriation of the plane was design to be two sit trainer planes.

 

General characteristics (MS.406)

• Crew: one pilot
• Length: 8.17 m (26 ft 9 in)
• Wingspan: 10.62 m (34 ft 10 in)
• Height: 2.71 m (8 ft 10 in)
• Wing area: 17.10 m² (184.06 ft²)
• Empty weight: 1,893 kg (4,173 lb)
• Loaded weight: 2,426 kg (5,348 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × Hispano-Suiza 12Y-31 liquid-cooled V-12, 640 kW (860 hp)

Performance

• Maximum speed: 486 km/h (303 mph) at 5,000 m (16,400 ft)
• Range: 1,000 km (620 mi)
• Rate of climb: 13.0 m/s (2,560 ft/min)
• Wing loading: 141.9 kg/m² (29.1 lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: 260 W/kg (0.16 hp/lb)

Armament

• Guns:
  • 1× 20 mm (0.787 in) Hispano-Suiza HS.404 cannon
  • 2× 7.5 mm (0.295 in) MAC 1934 machine guns

 

Picture reference

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MS 405

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MS 406

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Source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_M.S.406

http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/morane_ms-405.php

http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/morane_ms-406.php

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=618

https://www.aviationsmilitaires.net/v2/base/view/Model/830.html

http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_MS406.html

http://www.avionslegendaires.net/avion-militaire/morane-saulnier-ms-406/

[SAUBER_KH7 3,326]

Open for Discussion.

[blockhaj 3,559]

I dont see a reason for this sugestionas the 405 and 406 will probably come with one of the 2 next patches.

[CaID 8,996]

55 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

I dont see a reason for this sugestionas the 405 and 406 will probably come with one of the 2 next patches.

i was expecting to see it at the release. just like the MB.151 and 152. but sometime it's good to remember there is important plane to be added. so the suggestion is always good to put the pressure on specific plane.

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

sure. another pair of low tier 2 light fighters would be good. +2 for the pair. seems like france had quite a lot of I-16 to Yak-7 spectrum fighters before everyone else.

 

hey @CaID in your infinite backlog of french planes are there any upper tier 3 - tier 4? say 4.3-6.3 BR planes?

[blockhaj 3,559]

1 minute ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

sure. another pair of low tier 2 light fighters would be good. +2 for the pair. seems like france had quite a lot of I-16 to Yak-7 spectrum fighters before everyone else.

 

hey @CaID in your infinite backlog of french planes are there any upper tier 3 - tier 4? say 4.3-6.3 BR planes?

Not rly. There where a ton of similar designs at the time they where just the only ones following through.

[Xenecrite 899]

More details:

Morane-Saulnier MS.405 :

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Morane-Saulnier MS.406:

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Edited November 15, 2017 by Xenecrite

[CaID 8,996]

 

i would say all those are not necessary in the game. except for the German one, those nation aren't currently in the game and those plane have some modification that make them a plane appart from the MS.406 while been in the same family. the Switzerland plane could be premium in the french tree. but again, there is no necessity to me.

[Xenecrite 899]

which is it would be an extra plane for us
German side

[CaID 8,996]

3 hours ago, Xenecrite said:

which is it would be an extra plane for us
German side

there is rumor to add a tree made out of minor European nation. the Switzerland is likely to team up with the Sweden and Poland. personally, i would rather like a minor neutral European nation, minor Nazi, minor communist and Commonwealth alliance. 

no matter where Finland and Switzerland fit in, it would still be nice to have a few vehicles already in game to base their tree upon it. like the Italian line in the German tree or the few french airplane in the British tree.

[LoserRoccii888 735]

No, another useless French plane with no Ammo and to weak weapons.

We need AN/M2 cannon and not the 404 garbage cannon with no Ammo and garbage belts.

Edited November 15, 2017 by LoserRoccii888

[CaID 8,996]

20 minutes ago, LoserRoccii888 said:

No, another useless French plane with no Ammo and to weak weapons.

We need AN/M2 cannon and not the 404 garbage cannon with no Ammo and garbage belts.

those plane are tier 2 materiel. where the HS 404 are good, also the MS.405 and 406 are really maneuverable which make them good dog fighter and fun plane to play.

Edited November 15, 2017 by CaID

[CaID 8,996]

16 hours ago, Admiral_Aruon said:

sure. another pair of low tier 2 light fighters would be good. +2 for the pair. seems like france had quite a lot of I-16 to Yak-7 spectrum fighters before everyone else.

 

hey @CaID in your infinite backlog of french planes are there any upper tier 3 - tier 4? say 4.3-6.3 BR planes?

some can get close to there, but between 4.3 and 6.3, there is very few french plane that could fit. i see well the french FW190 or the SE-100 in those area. i already suggested them.

 

but keep your eye open. a high tier IV is coming and will make the VG.10 look as powerful as a biplane.

Edited November 15, 2017 by CaID

[LoserRoccii888 735]

Oh, more powerful than a V.G. 10.

That must be F7F1

[CaID 8,996]

17 minutes ago, LoserRoccii888 said:

Oh, more powerful than a V.G. 10.

That must be F7F1

nope. it's a french fighter of the ww2. it's just not well know. it's even more armed thant the tigercat

the suggestion is pending right now. so it should be visible shortly

 

i do not have much plane left on my list, i was keeping that one for the last day but it think it's a good time now.

Edited November 16, 2017 by CaID

[LoserRoccii888 735]

Than bring it.

We have a gfreat lack between 3.7 and 5.7.

The V.B. 10´s i will not use it´s like flying an Oiltanker. Unusable for me.

Need a Fighter like the V.G.33 or M.B157 but with more Ammo.

[CaID 8,996]

44 minutes ago, LoserRoccii888 said:

Than bring it.

We have a gfreat lack between 3.7 and 5.7.

The V.B. 10´s i will not use it´s like flying an Oiltanker. Unusable for me.

Need a Fighter like the V.G.33 or M.B157 but with more Ammo.

VG.32 is coming. a bit slower than the MB.157 but more maneuverable and with a pair of 20mm and 7.5mm on the wing. it's good enough to match the MB.157 at 3.7 to me.
the MB.157 is supposed to have four 7.5mm on the wing with the pair of 20mm as the minimal armament of the french aviation for a fighter of 1940 was to have 1x 20mm in the engine with 4x 7.5mm in the wing or 2x 20mm in the wing with 2x 7.5mm

 

but i do not have anything new today between 3,7 and 5.7, the powerful fighter is fit for 5,7 at least. with the aditional 7.5mm, the MB,157 could get to 4.0 and the MB.155 to 3.7

Edited November 16, 2017 by CaID

[Tormp 334]

To be frank, at beginning to play french tree I was thinking that MS. 410 would be a bad aircraft that she should be boring to fly. After play she, I discovered that I was wrong and  now she is my favorite french plane in low tier. So I voted yes at your suggestion, I want more MS fighters.

[CaID 8,996]

1 hour ago, Tormp said:

To be frank, at beginning to play french tree I was thinking that MS. 410 would be a bad aircraft that she should be boring to fly. After play she, I discovered that I was wrong and  now she is my favorite french plane in low tier. So I voted yes at your suggestion, I want more MS fighters.

i have hope to see 2 disting line of fighter in the french tree. one for the french light fighter with high maneuverability such as the Ms.410 and VG.33, another for the medium fighter such as the D520 and MB.157. those 4 fighter have a whole family able to fill the tier 2 and 3 well. in tier 4, the NC.900 and VG.10 along with the SE.580 can cover it. you get the light fighter who are very maneuverable, and the medium fighter who are more armed.

Edited November 16, 2017 by CaID

[LoserRoccii888 735]

Than bring the M.S 410 and the N.C.600, i need them.

The V.B.10 Series i don´t need.

[CaID 8,996]

what about the se.580?

 

 

[LoserRoccii888 735]

S.E 580

https://oldmachinepress.com/2016/03/10/sud-est-sncase-se-580-fighter/

3x12,7mm M2 Brownings?

Or this article with 6x12,7mm MG´s

http://aviationprojects.blogspot.de/2010/06/dewoitine-sud-est-se-580.html

 

Here is my favorite plane and Setup BR 3.3 in AB Mode.

The V.G33C-1 is fantastic! I love it. Need more Variants of this plane.

Edited November 17, 2017 by LoserRoccii888

[CaID 8,996]

28 minutes ago, LoserRoccii888 said:

S.E 580

https://oldmachinepress.com/2016/03/10/sud-est-sncase-se-580-fighter/

3x12,7mm M2 Brownings?

Or this article with 6x12,7mm MG´s

http://aviationprojects.blogspot.de/2010/06/dewoitine-sud-est-se-580.html

 

Here is my favorite plane and Setup BR 3.3 in AB Mode.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The V.G33C-1 is fantastic! I love it. Need more Variants of this plane.

 

a 30mm in the propeller hub, a pair of 20mm in each wing, and fouur 7.5mm in each wing as planned in the war and the 7.5mm was replaced by three 12.7mm in each wing after the liberation of France. and both article you show say there was eight 7.5mm on the wing (four in each wing) or six 12.7mm (three in each wing). with that there is a 500kg bomb that was carried on a belly rack.

 

so why you say they are different? have you read it?

Edited November 17, 2017 by CaID

[LoserRoccii888 735]

I did only read the 1st article second not.

 

[CaID 8,996]

54 minutes ago, LoserRoccii888 said:

I did only read the 1st article second not.

 

first article 8th paragraph. second line, " Each wing housed two 20 mm cannons and four 7.5 mm (or three 12.7 mm) machine guns. "

 

second article, 2nd paragraph, " four 20mm cannon and either eight 7.Smm or six 12.7mm machine guns mounted in the wings outboard of the propeller arc."

 

it's pretty much saying the same thing to me