The inevitable FCM F1 Thread

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

title says it all. this is for discussion (AKA arguing) about the French Char Lourd Char FCM F1!

 

so you can post your support/derision/information/random offhand knowledge here instead of cluttering up @*cartman400s thread on the French superheavies that were built.

 

obligatory stock wikipedia description:

 

"The FCM F1 was a French superheavy tank developed during the late Interbellum by the Forges et Chantiers de la Méditerranée company. Twelve were ordered in 1940 to replace the Char 2C, but France was defeated before construction could begin, a wooden mock-up being all that was finished. The FCM F1 was large and elongated, and had two turrets: one in front and one in the back, with a single high-velocity gun in each turret. The rear turret was higher so it could shoot over the first one. The vehicle was intended to be heavily armoured. Its size and protection level made it by 1940, at about 140 tons the heaviest tank ever to have actually been ordered for production. Despite two engines its speed would have been low. The primary purpose of the tank was to breach German fortification lines, not to fight enemy tanks. The development path of the FCM F1 was extremely complex, due to the existence of a number of parallel super-heavy tank projects with overlapping design goals, the specifications of which were regularly changed. For each project in turn several companies submitted one or more competing proposals."

 

links:

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=529 (recommended)

http://www.tanks.midnightlynx.com/2016/08/fcm-f1-super-heavy-tank.html (recommended)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCM_F1

http://aviarmor.net/tww2/tanks/france/fcm_f1.htm (Russian text - use autotranslate if you have it)

http://forum.valka.cz/topic/view/37384/FCM-F1 (Czech text - use autotranslate if you have it)

http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/index.php/engins-blindes/chars?task=view&id=723 (french text - use autotranslate if you have it)

World of Ta- pfffff HAHAHAHAHA LOL no. not even once. (picture in photodump below doesn't count)

 

statistics: (military factory)

Spoiler

Design (Crew Space, Dimensions, Weight, and Systems)

 

 

Operating Crew: 9
Length: 34.55 feet (10.53 meters)
Width: 10.17 feet (3.10 meters)
Height: 13.81 feet (4.21 meters)

Operating Weight: 153 tons (138,771 kg; 305,938 lb)

Nuclear-Biological-Chemical (NBC) Protection: None.
Nightvision (NV) Equipment: None.

Installed Power and Standard Road Performance

 

 

Engine: 2 x Renault V12 KGM engines of 550 horsepower each.

Top Speed: 12 mph (20 km/h)
Maximum Traveling Range: 124 miles (200 km)

Armament and Ammunition

 

 

1 x 100mm main gun in main turret
1 x 90mm DCA gun in forward turret
1 x 47mm SA37 cannon
6 x 7.7mm machine guns

Ammunition:
Not Available.

 

 

photodump from various sources, models, and video games:

Spoiler

WoT

R.U.S.E

scalemates

RCGroups

Giganaut, Deviantart

Giganaut, Deviantart

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Admiral_Aruon
fixed broken picture

[sobawasab@psn 700]

That would be wonderful

[Slipslime 660]

Yeah it would be really cool, but France can probably make it's heavy line without it. It would also face tremendous hatred since it's paper and not even needed

[WindowsXPisBest@psn 1,595]

The Chasis Design looks fine but those sure are some ugly looking Turrets. Kinda looks like a turret you see on a Battleship (which I guess that was main point for Landships & some Super Heavy Tanks)

[armando30 493]

it's pretty simple, expect the FCM F1 to come as the french SMK, a multi-turret mid-BR premium, of course it will probably be rank III because despite the low top speed (20kph) it had 120mm of sloped armour in the front and 100mm all around with the addition of a 90mm gun with a muzzle velocity of 840m/s, it will have a limited fire-arc because it has a massive turret with a 47mm gun in the front but it's a bit elevated meaning it can still hit enemies in front of it if they are at a bit of distance

[TheFuzzieOne 3,355]

17 hours ago, armando30 said:

it's pretty simple, expect the FCM F1 to come as the french SMK, a multi-turret mid-BR premium, of course it will probably be rank III because despite the low top speed (20kph) it had 120mm of sloped armour in the front and 100mm all around with the addition of a 90mm gun with a muzzle velocity of 840m/s, it will have a limited fire-arc because it has a massive turret with a 47mm gun in the front but it's a bit elevated meaning it can still hit enemies in front of it if they are at a bit of distance

 

The FCM F1 is not coming. If it does, then Gaijin have made a huge error, as this tank was never built.

[armando30 493]

On 18/12/2017 at 11:34 AM, TheFuzzieOne said:

 

The FCM F1 is not coming. If it does, then Gaijin have made a huge error, as this tank was never built.

yes it was, where do you even think the ARL44 got the turret with the 90mm gun?

the full mock-up was done, 2 turrets were built, the order for 12 F1's was placed, if they had started it just before the fall of france or not is a different story since the germans most likely destroyed it as they did with the ARL Tracteur C, the thing is it was AT LEAST partially built and there are detailed plans from which to model it, something that never even existed for the German Tiger II 10,5cm, all there is about that is a drawing of a normal Tiger II with the long 88mm cannon and something handwritten below «mit "such and such" 10,5cm cannon»

the FMC F1 is no different than the E-100 and more real than the Tiger II 10,5cm, and you could even argue than te Panther II with it's current turret,  don't see any reason for it not to be added as a mid BR premium since it's 120mm of armour and 90mm gun would not be OP as the E-100 was back when first introduced, which they should compensate because of the addition of Rank VI, maybe adding the E-75 (same hull as the E-100)

[evil_wolf 760]

19 minutes ago, armando30 said:

yes it was, where do you even think the ARL44 got the turret with the 90mm gun?

the full mock-up was done, 2 turrets were built, the order for 12 F1's was placed, if they had started it just before the fall of France or not is a different story since the Germans most likely destroyed it as they did with the ARL Tracteur C, the thing is it was AT LEAST partially built and there are detailed plans from which to model it, something that never even existed for the German Tiger II 10,5cm, all there is about that is a drawing of a normal Tiger II with the long 88mm cannon and something handwritten below «mit "such and such" 10,5cm cannon»

the FCM F1 is no different than the E-100 and more real than the Tiger II 10,5cm, and you could even argue than the Panther II with it's current turret,  don't see any reason for it not to be added as a mid BR premium since it's 120mm of armor and 90mm gun would not be OP as the E-100 was back when first introduced, which they should compensate because of the addition of Rank VI, maybe adding the E-75 (same hull as the E-100)

the only thing that was made was the wooden mock-up that stayed at the FCM workshops and then got destroyed

 

the ARL 44 turret was designed and made by the Schneider company specifically for the ARL project, the shape i much different than the pictures we have of the F1 mock up

Quote

ARL 44

 

FCM F1

 

[armando30 493]

6 hours ago, evil_wolf said:

the only thing that was made was the wooden mock-up that stayed at the FCM workshops and then got destroyed

 

the ARL 44 turret was designed and made by the Schneider company specifically for the ARL project, the shape i much different than the pictures we have of the F1 mock up

 

you are using the photo of the mock-up as a fact about something, don't forget that the ARL Tracteur C as well as a design submited by the S.E.A.M company (designed by some polish engineer or something) were competing with the FCM F1, in the end the FCM was chosen and the ARL project supposedly stoped at a partially built mock-up

these are it's photos:

 

Spoiler

notice something? maybe the fact that it's completely different from the ARL 44

of course by now you could be arguing that I am copying you and using photos of mockups as facts, but that's not the case, as I wrote above the FCM F1 project was favored over the ARL one (probably had something to do with being more experienced at making suc machines, like the Char 2C), this means the ARL project stoped and the F1 continued, so why would the ARL company order 2 functional turrets to be built?

 

Quote

The Atelier et Chantiers de la Loire built the ACL1 turret used for the prototype, fitted with the American 76 mm gun; this was later replaced by a Schneider turret based on the one designed for the Char F1 and fitted with the 90 mm DCA naval AA-gun which had a muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s

the devblog about the ARL44 does not mention the origin of the turret, which should given that the difference between the first and second ARL44's in the game is exactly the turret and gun they used (there's also armour bu that is not noticeable unless you already knew), but it also does not mean that this is the first time someone got this wrong, don't forget that FCM and Schneider are 2 independent companies, you cannot take the basic turret they used for the mockup as an indication of the final product since FCM did not know what that would look like, afterall it was the Schneider company that had to make it, install the gun and make sure everything works

 

furthermore you have another case of a tank game that also researched the ARL44 and initially modelled it as it was mostly known, since they knew the final turret was inspired in the one made for the F1 project they went lazy and gave it a "stock" turret that looked exactly like the one on the F1 mock-up, it's not a good example of someone who could search for the real one (as they did later) and instead followed the easy path by using 2 turrets known to be related, yet it does not change the fact that they are known to be related which means the original turrets for the F1 project were at least started

 

but this is my opinion gained through "connecting the dots" of everything I've read, if someone else has more detailed info then please let us know, info like if they started working on them or not after receiving the order for them

[evil_wolf 760]

7 hours ago, armando30 said:

you are using the photo of the mock-up as a fact about something, don't forget that the ARL Tracteur C as well as a design submited by the S.E.A.M company (designed by some polish engineer or something) were competing with the FCM F1, in the end the FCM was chosen and the ARL project supposedly stoped at a partially built mock-up

these are it's photos:

 

  Hide contents

notice something? maybe the fact that it's completely different from the ARL 44

of course by now you could be arguing that I am copying you and using photos of mockups as facts, but that's not the case, as I wrote above the FCM F1 project was favored over the ARL one (probably had something to do with being more experienced at making suc machines, like the Char 2C), this means the ARL project stoped and the F1 continued, so why would the ARL company order 2 functional turrets to be built?

 

the devblog about the ARL44 does not mention the origin of the turret, which should given that the difference between the first and second ARL44's in the game is exactly the turret and gun they used (there's also armour bu that is not noticeable unless you already knew), but it also does not mean that this is the first time someone got this wrong, don't forget that FCM and Schneider are 2 independent companies, you cannot take the basic turret they used for the mockup as an indication of the final product since FCM did not know what that would look like, afterall it was the Schneider company that had to make it, install the gun and make sure everything works

 

furthermore you have another case of a tank game that also researched the ARL44 and initially modelled it as it was mostly known, since they knew the final turret was inspired in the one made for the F1 project they went lazy and gave it a "stock" turret that looked exactly like the one on the F1 mock-up, it's not a good example of someone who could search for the real one (as they did later) and instead followed the easy path by using 2 turrets known to be related, yet it does not change the fact that they are known to be related which means the original turrets for the F1 project were at least started

 

but this is my opinion gained through "connecting the dots" of everything I've read, if someone else has more detailed info then please let us know, info like if they started working on them or not after receiving the order for them

for i see nowhere that parts of the F1 were produced, the only sites that go as far are uchronia sites and the french wikipedia page. (and i remember on the first version of the page, they said the tank defended the factory).

 

second it's possible that Schneider was contracted by FCM to make the F1 turret, but as such, FCM would have known the design of the turret, so it's very likely that the shape of the mock-up would have been the shape of the turret prototype (i do not believe the F1 would have been produced near the numbers of the 2C tanks), but the ARL 44 turret isn't the F1 one, as the wikipedia page says "based on the one designed for the char F1"

[Zander_Nobuyuki 63]

+1

[DeuZerre 2,476]

Char 2c would be a much better candidate for "T-35" type of tank for the lols than this monstrosity made of wood.

[Hunter12396 3,520]

On ‎19‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 09:19, armando30 said:

yes it was, where do you even think the ARL44 got the turret with the 90mm gun?

the full mock-up was done, 2 turrets were built, the order for 12 F1's was placed, if they had started it just before the fall of france or not is a different story since the germans most likely destroyed it as they did with the ARL Tracteur C, the thing is it was AT LEAST partially built and there are detailed plans from which to model it, something that never even existed for the German Tiger II 10,5cm, all there is about that is a drawing of a normal Tiger II with the long 88mm cannon and something handwritten below «mit "such and such" 10,5cm cannon»

the FMC F1 is no different than the E-100 and more real than the Tiger II 10,5cm, and you could even argue than te Panther II with it's current turret,  don't see any reason for it not to be added as a mid BR premium since it's 120mm of armour and 90mm gun would not be OP as the E-100 was back when first introduced, which they should compensate because of the addition of Rank VI, maybe adding the E-75 (same hull as the E-100)

You were almost doing well until you claimed that the E-75, or even a version of it, would have had the E-100's hull. Where do people come up with this crap?? The E-75 was a regular Tiger II. Period. It was not some "ubertenk" with 200mm of armor and a 128mm gun.

Edited June 21, 2018 by Hunter12396

[Slipslime 660]

9 hours ago, Hunter12396 said:

You were almost doing well until you claimed that the E-75, or even a version of it, would have had the E-100's hull. Where do people come up with this crap?? The E-75 was a regular Tiger II. Period. It was not some "ubertenk" with 200mm of armor and a 128mm gun.

 

The E-75 wasn't just a regular Tiger II, it probably would have had some improvements based on the combat experience of the Tiger II and to streamline production. But you're right that it was never a wonder weapon

Edited June 22, 2018 by Slipslime

[Hunter12396 3,520]

4 hours ago, Slipslime said:

 

The E-75 wasn't just a regular Tiger II, it probably would have had some improvements based on the combat experience of the Tiger II and to streamline production. But you're right that it was never a wonder weapon

The only changes made between the Tiger II and E-75 were ease of production. Its possible that it would have had the 105mm gun proposed for the Tiger II 105, but no documents exist stating its armament.

[SkySoNy 46]

On 18/12/2017 at 12:34, TheFuzzieOne said:

 

The FCM F1 is not coming. If it does, then Gaijin have made a huge error, as this tank was never built.

Only a demonstration tank was designed and armed for the official presentation. However, all reports concerning this tank were captured by the German invader. When the Germans captured Le Havre, an F1 FCM was in the phase of mounting the turrets, the plans were captured, the model and the factory destroyed without further trial.

it was built

The plans were taken by the Germans who would have based their Panzerkampfwagen Mammut VK-7001 later called Tiger-Maus or Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus on this concept, then the Lowe VK-7201, while varying the angles of armor and changing two turrets for a single for a more conventional weapon according to their military policy.

The plans of the F1 FCM were then captured and studied by the Russians.

The plans of this land battleship were only made a few years ago [When?] To France, this concept of super-heavy now gone by the new weapons and principles of tracking / guidance.

Edited October 3, 2018 by SkySoNy

[Valcour 1,141]

Was it a part of the Fonds Potsdam that the Russians released about a decade ago?  I know that there were a lot of ships data in there but I don't know about tanks.

 

[TheFuzzieOne 3,355]

On 03/10/2018 at 14:01, SkySoNy said:

Only a demonstration tank was designed and armed for the official presentation. However, all reports concerning this tank were captured by the German invader. When the Germans captured Le Havre, an F1 FCM was in the phase of mounting the turrets, the plans were captured, the model and the factory destroyed without further trial.

it was built

The plans were taken by the Germans who would have based their Panzerkampfwagen Mammut VK-7001 later called Tiger-Maus or Panzerkampfwagen VIII Maus on this concept, then the Lowe VK-7201, while varying the angles of armor and changing two turrets for a single for a more conventional weapon according to their military policy.

The plans of the F1 FCM were then captured and studied by the Russians.

The plans of this land battleship were only made a few years ago [When?] To France, this concept of super-heavy now gone by the new weapons and principles of tracking / guidance.

 

Feel free to post a photo of the actual functioning metal prototype then.

[Comrad-Kruschev@psn 822]

The HMS Tog II is a much better canidate for the next land battleship. It would easily go full Waterloo on that ugly frog barn.

[Arghail 1,220]

On 15/10/2018 at 17:39, *Comrad-Kruschev said:

The HMS Tog II is a much better canidate for the next land battleship. It would easily go full Waterloo on that ugly frog barn.

 

By going full Waterloo you mean being useless for most of the fight, dealing the last blow and claiming it did it all by itself ?

 

In all seriousness, as much as I like French designs, I don't really think the FCM F1 would have a place in the game, given the high number of unknowns on this design. We would need extremely accurate archive files that would detail the entire project if we wanted to even remotely consider its appearance in this game. As stated above, we don'thave that anymore. Besides, the previous "paper" tanks were added when it was thought that tech trees were heavily lacking, and, seeing that this isn't really the case anymore, these kind of tanks are less and less likely to appear in War Thunder. I would much rather have one of the versions of the FCM 2C in the game to fight beside the Independent or the T35, rather than a tank we know almost nothing about, and probably won't know much more except if by miracle, some dude unearth from his attics some hidden schematics and photos nobody ever saw before.

[SiberianSnakeSIB 12]

Gaijin keeps adding fake vehicles such as F-16AJ, and doesn't fully cut out other tanks such as Tiger 10,5, Panther II and E 100. FCM F1 should be added as Gaijin already did too many unknown vehicles, the "historically realistic" won't work anymore. It would be another good addition for France like récent Champagne and upcoming 2C