Marder 2 - A replacement which came too late

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

         MARDER 2 IFV         

1982 – the Cold War was still a daily fact of life and Marder has just reached one half of its intended lifespan. In other words, it was high time for the Germans to start looking for a replacement, or so they thought at least. From 1982 to 1984, a military-wide discussion was held regarding the properties any future IFV was to have. Based on this discussion, the German military procurement agency formulated the following requirements:

• The IFV was to have at least the same battlefield mobility as the Leopard 2 MBT
• Seats for 7 mechanized infantry troops (Panzergrenadiere)
• Frontal protection against Soviet 30mm armor-piercing rounds (to counter the Soviet BMP-2)
• Fully stabilized automatic cannon of 35mm to 50mm caliber
   

History:
Between 1984 and 1988, a number of proposals were submitted and in 1988, the Krauss-Maffei company was selected as the general contractor for the hull, powerplant and suspension, while Rheinmetall was tasked with the development of new automatic cannon, turret and fire control system. The ammunition feed was to be provided by Oerlikon Contraves and Heckler Koch. This new IFV project became known as the Marder 2. The initial goal was to produce 1000 of these new IFVs between 1997 and 2001. The first prototype was finished by 1991 and shown to Bundeswehr on September 17 of the same year.

Compared to the earlier Marder 1, it was massive, weighing 44.2 tons (over 16 tons more). This increase was not just due to its size – the vehicle was also larger than its predecessor and could carry 7 armed troopers as required – but because of the increased protection levels. The basic hull of the Marder 2 was made of steel and protected the front of the vehicle from any known 30mm shells, while the sides and the rear were protected from 7.62mm AP bullets and 155mm shell fragments. With a planned additional armor, the vehicle could resist 14.5mm AP bullets from any angle.
 

Rheinmetall developed a new turret for the vehicle, designated TS 503. It was a two-man turret with the gunner and the commander sitting next to one another (the gunner was sitting on the right side of the gun) while the driver was left in the hull. The turret was armed with new Rheinmetall Rh 503 dual caliber automatic cannon – the weapon could use two types of barrels – one was 35mm and one was 50mm. The barrels and feeds that could be easily changed – it took mere minutes to switch to another caliber. The gun was fully stabilized and its rate of fire could be set between 150 and 400 rounds per minute (the amount of rounds carried was 277). The maximum range was 2000 meters, the maximum elevation was +45 degrees and the maximum depression was -10 degrees.

The gun could fire the following types of ammunition:

• 35mm APFSDS-T
• 35mm HE-EFT (High Explosive Electronic Time Fuse – advanced programmable HE ammunition)
• 50mm APFSDS-T
• 50mm HE-EFT-T (a 50mm version of the advanced 35mm HE ammo, but with a tracer added)
  

The following data on Oerlikon ammunition were produced in the late 1990s:

• 35x228mm APDS-T: weight projectile: 380g mv: 1440m/s: penetration 90mm/0°/1000m
• 35x228mm APFSDS-T weight penetrator: 388g mv 1417m/s penetration 120mm/0°/1000m
• 50x330mm APFSDS-T weight penetrator 640g mv 1600m/s penetration 180mm/0°/1000m

The gunner had advanced optics at his disposal: the PERI-ZTWL 128/45 sights that featured:

• Laser rangefinder
• Day/Night sights
• Thermal imager
   

The commander had an independent PERI-RT 60 periscope at his disposal and could also utilize the gunner’s thermal imager via a video feed.

The vehicle was powered by a MTU 881 Ka-500 turbocharged V8 18.3 liter diesel engine (the same that was later used in the Panzerhaubitze 2000) producing excellent 1000hp, giving the vehicle very good mobility and solid power-to-weight ratio of 22.62 hp/t. The engine was paired with Renk HSWL-284-C transmission, allowing the Marder 2 to go as fast as 62 km/h.

Overall, it was an excellent vehicle featuring cutting edge technology, but it had two big problems:

• It was quite expensive
• It came in 1991
   

By the time it was introduced, the Cold War was over and there was little need for a new super-modern IFV. The threat of the Soviet Union was over, German unification was back on the table and everyone realized that this process would not come cheap. On both NATO and Russian side, the 1990s were the time when many promising projects were buried – and such was the fate of the Marder 2.

Additional Pictures:

Spoiler

Sources:
Gallery Wehrtechnische Studiensammlung Koblenz
Bundesamt für Ausrüstung Informationstechnik und Nutzung der Bundeswehr
MTU-Engine Data Sheet
Data-Sheet of the Marder 2 by baainbw
http://fighting-vehicles.com/marder-2-infantry-fighting-vehicle/
Rh 503 infosheet
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3600.html
Rh 503 Video Youtube
http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_spz_marder_2-a.htm
More infos on the Cannon and the Ammo

Quote

tl;dr
PAGE 14, 211 and 230:
More information has emerged about APDS ammunition for the Russian 30x165 cartridge used in the 2A42 and 2A72. The first generation was known as "Trezubka"; the entire projectile (including sabot) weighed 390g and was fired at 870 m/s to achieve a penetration of 25mm/1000m/60 degrees, the latest is known as "Kerner", with figures of 304g at 1,120 m/s and 25mm/1,500m/60 degrees.

The following data on Oerlikon ammunition were produced in the late 1990s:

• 35x228mm APDS-T: weight projectile: 380g mv: 1440m/s: penetration 90mm/0°/1000m
• 35x228mm APFSDS-T weight penetrator: 388g mv 1417m/s penetration 120mm/0°/1000m
• 50x330mm APFSDS-T weight penetrator 640g mv 1600m/s penetration 180mm/0°/1000m

(NB the data for the 50x330 on page 213 needs correcting; it should have said "APFSDS" anyway!)

There was one example of an attempt to use an APFSDS shot in aircraft. The 40mm PGU-31/B was developed for the Bofors gun fitted to the AC-130U gunship. The business end was a 230g tungsten alloy penetrator (11mm diameter with a 15:1 L/D ratio) which had a blunt tip covered by an aluminium windshield containing some incendiary compound to produce a bright flash on impact. Muzzle velocity was 1,335 m/s, giving a muzzle energy of 205,000 joules. However the tests, carried out in the late 1980s/early 1990s, were unsuccessful and the round was not accepted.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2019 by dotEXCEL

[Radom 4,245]

Open for discussion

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

6 minutes ago, Radom said:

Open for discussion

Cheers m8

[Necrons31467 14,236]

No ATGM, so it's a bit more difficult to justify a higher BR with this one, which means it might look a bit weird having a late 20th century IFV rolling alongside Tiger's and Pershings, aside from that, I still like the vehicle and would like to see it introduced, though I can;t decide wether it should be premium or not, on one hand it's a non-mass production vehicle, but on the other hand it's not that special in terms of it's looks/role/armament.

 

Also,

 

Gaijin, BMP-2 when.

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

Just now, Necrons31467 said:

No ATGM, so it's a bit more difficult to justify a higher BR with this one, which means it might look a bit weird having a late 20th century IFV rolling alongside Tiger's and Pershings, aside from that, I still like the vehicle and would like to see it introduced, though I can;t decide wether it should be premium or not, on one hand it's a non-mass production vehicle, but on the other hand it's not that special in terms of it's looks/role/armament.

 

Also,

 

Gaijin, BMP-2 when.

180mm pen is is still enough to kill every current 9,3 MBT from the front, plus 400rpm

 

[Necrons31467 14,236]

3 minutes ago, dotEXCEL said:

180mm pen is is still enough to kill every current 9,3 MBT from the front, plus 400rpm

 

 

Meh, loads of people complain about the Bagelpanzer beign over-tiered, that's got 147mm of pen with a fairly decent RoF aswell, along with having the I-TOW missile which the Marder II doesn't have.

[Ronin_GE 694]

Its a good IFV, to bad it never got beyond prototype phase.

Only downside I see still is a lack of an ATGM for selfdefence, and the fact that its big as a barn.

 

...and I still think that IFVs are misplace in the WT game meta, as they don not have they main weapon system. Deploying infantry squads to enable: close protection of the tanks against enemy AT teams, recon, opening of choke points etc etc...thats what IFV where made for. NOT for slugging it out with enemy armour.

 

 

[scavenjer 1,892]

This'll be great to have alongside our Leopard 2s!

Exactly what we need, an IFV with tank-like armour and a gun that can annihalate those pesky light vehicles/ air targets or even MBTs from the side :P

I can see this fitting well into the meta with a 35 or 50mm autocannon!

 

GIB!

[WulfPack 1,693]

Can I have one of these, if you get this

Spoiler

 

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

Just now, WulfPack said:

Can I have one of these, if you get this

  Hide contents

 

np gib that too

[WulfPack 1,693]

1 minute ago, dotEXCEL said:

np gib that too

then you have my +1

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

2 minutes ago, scavenjer said:

I can see this fitting well into the meta with a 35 or 50mm autocannon!

3 minutes ago, WulfPack said:

then you have my +1

u have to write the suggestions tho

[WulfPack 1,693]

3 minutes ago, dotEXCEL said:

u have to write the suggestions tho

Provided i can find information about their armor. All I know is a modified T-72B chassis with additional side armor.

Edited March 28, 2018 by WulfPack

[TasteTheTea 3,203]

+1.

 

We need an update with IFVs for all nations (in a similar fashion to the addition of ATGMs) including this Marder 2 and vehicles like the Bradley, Warrior, Type 89 etc.

[swpixy 1,220]

33 minutes ago, WulfPack said:

Can I have one of these, if you get this

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Why not also this:

Spoiler

Also,+1 for  the Marder 2.

[WulfPack 1,693]

9 minutes ago, swpixy said:

Why not also this:

  Hide contents

Also,+1 for  the Marder 2.

cuz ugly

[HelpfulHyena 2,018]

I have only one question

 

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

18 minutes ago, HelpfulHyena said:

I have only one question

 

@HelpfulHyena sure...

Spoiler

 

 

Edited March 28, 2018 by dotEXCEL

[HelpfulHyena 2,018]

20 minutes ago, dotEXCEL said:

@HelpfulHyena sure...

  Hide contents

 

 

K. Good.

Love it.

[kamikazi21358 998]

6 hours ago, Necrons31467 said:

No ATGM, so it's a bit more difficult to justify a higher BR with this one, which means it might look a bit weird having a late 20th century IFV rolling alongside Tiger's and Pershings, aside from that, I still like the vehicle and would like to see it introduced, though I can;t decide wether it should be premium or not, on one hand it's a non-mass production vehicle, but on the other hand it's not that special in terms of it's looks/role/armament.

 

Also,

 

Gaijin, BMP-2 when.

 BMP-2, BMP-3, BMDs, etc. yeah I want those.

 

I know they are not 80’s, but the PT-76, Ru-251, Walker Bulldog, and the AMX-13s do just fine at WW2 BRs for post war tanks.  I know it’s not as late as this tank, but I honestly think it would fit just fine.

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

11 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

 BMP-2, BMP-3, BMDs, etc. yeah I want those.

same

[WulfPack 1,693]

On 3/28/2018 at 2:18 PM, dotEXCEL said:

 

u have to write the suggestions tho

aight

Spoiler

 

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

8 hours ago, WulfPack said:

aight

  Reveal hidden contents

 

@WulfPack
alright...
1. you have my support,
2. this:

Spoiler

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by dotEXCEL

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

@SAUBER_KH7 move to the new Subforums

[Das33erBison 70]

UP +1, Would sit really nicely after the Marder 1A3 in the Begleitpanzer line.