SUB-II-2 - a prototype of the Type 73 APC with a 20mm Rh202

[Tasty95215 2,099]

 

The SUB-II-2 is one of four prototypes of the Type 73 Armored Personnel Carrier. This particular vehicle had a Rheinmetall Rh202 20mm autocannon, unlike the others' 12.7mm M2 machine guns.

 

Brief History

Development on the Type 73 APC started in 1967 as a replacement for the Type 60 APC. A partial prototype, known as the "SU-T", was completed in 1968. Orders went out for four prototypes the next year, two of which would be built by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, while the other two would be built by Komatsu Limited.

 

Mitsubishi's prototypes:

• SUB-I-1
  • Bulletproof steel armor
  • 12.7mm M2 outside the cupola

The SUB-I-1, preserved at the JGSDF Camp Maegawara in Kurume

More pictures:

Spoiler

 

• SUB-I-2
  • Bulletproof aluminum alloy armor
  • 12.7mm M2 outside the cupola
  • "Height Variable Device" (車高可変装置付き)

Though it's unclear whether this is the first or second model, the position of the smoke grenade launchers on the back seems to indicate that it's the SUB-I-2.

 

Komatsu's prototypes:

• SUB-II-1
  • Bulletproof steel armor
  • 12.7mm M2 in a turret

The SUB-II-1, preserved at Kasumigaura Air Field

 

• SUB-II-2
  • Bulletproof aluminum alloy armor
  • Rheinmetall Rh202 20mm in a turret
  • Winching equipment on the front of the chassis

 

The prototypes were tested from 1970-1971, and at some point during that time the Rheinmetall Rh202 gun was rejected. Multiple reasons were given as to why the 20mm wasn't accepted, including cost concerns and insufficient accuracy. The SUB-II-2 was remodelled, having had the gun removed and replaced with a turret similar to the SUB-II-1:

 

The preserved SUB-II-2, at the JGSDF Camp Tsuchiura

More pictures:

Spoiler

 

A number of other, smaller changes were made too, including the removal of the extra plates and lights from the vehicle:

Spoiler

 

In the end, the SUB-I-2 was chosen to go into production as the Type 73 APC. The other three prototypes were preserved. 

 

Classification

The SUB-II-2 was technically an armored personnel carrier/infantry fighting vehicle, not an anti-aircraft vehicle, so it could be added to War Thunder as a light tank. However, there's precedent in War Thunder with implementing IFV's as SPAA's, as seen with the Italian R3 T20 FA-HS. This armored car wasn't designed as an SPAA, but is classified as one in the Italian tank tech tree due to a lack of options.

 

 

On one hand, it being an SPAA would help Japan against aircraft quite a lot due to the Rh202 20mm's rate of fire and muzzle velocity. This is especially important considering how the M42 Duster that Japan has is rather mediocre (or so I've been told). On the other hand, the SUB-II-2 being classified as a light tank would let it scout and repair allies, as well as fill in some BR gaps between the M24 Chaffee and the M41 Bulldog. As such, I've made a poll to see which option would be more popular.

 

More pictures of the SUB-II-2, taken in 1974 during tests. This is from the 2005 revised copy of the book 「戦後日本の戦車開発史」by Iwao Hayashi

 

Scan from the original 2002 version of the same book

 

Armament

The SUB-II-2 uses the Rheinmetall Rh202 20mm autocannon, which is already in War Thunder on the MBT-70, KPZ-70 and Leopard 2K. This had a rate of fire between 880 to 1030 rounds per minute, and the SUB-II-2 would probably have the higher end of that due to its dual ammunition feed.

 

 

There were two main kinds of armor-piercing ammunition, as well as a whole bunch of high explosive and other anti-personnel rounds. An entire list can be found here: http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?3203-20x139-shells-for-the-HS-820-(Oerlikon-KAD)-amp-Rh-202-gun. The amount of ammunition, gun elevation and depression, and gun traverse are unknown.

• API-T round DM43. Had a muzzle velocity of 1100 m/s and a penetration at 1000 meters of 32mm at 90 degrees, 24mm at 60 degrees, and 8mm at 30 degrees.
• APDS-T round DM63. Had a muzzle velocity of 1150 m/s and a penetration at 1000 meters of 35mm at 45 degrees.

 

In the hull, the SUB-II-2 uses an Browning M1919 7.7mm machine gun. This can go 30 degrees to the left and right and has 10 degrees elevation and depression. On the Type 73 APC, 600 rounds are carried.

 

 

Crew

The crew consists of 4 members - a commander, driver, gunner and hull machine gunner. Furthermore, an additional 8 soldiers can be carried (at least for the Type 73 APC), though these would most likely not be implemented in War Thunder.

 

Blueprint of the Type 73 APC. Although several features are different compared to the SUB-II-2, the basic layout is the same.

 

Mobility

While the weight of the SUB-II-2 is unspecified, the Type 73 APC weighs 13.3 tons and the Rh 202 weighs 1.8 tons. Furthermore, the SUB-II-2 had extra plates of armor on the hull sides and upper glacis, which brought the weight up more. Taking that into account, the SUB-II-2 probably had a weight of around 16 tons.

 

The engine of the Type 73 APC was a 300 horsepower diesel engine, and I haven't seen any indications that the prototypes used a different engine.

 

The slightly increased weight may mean that the SUB-II-I is slightly less fast compared to the Type 73 APC, which had a top speed of 60 kph.

 

Sources

• http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?3203-20x139-shells-for-the-HS-820-(Oerlikon-KAD)-amp-Rh-202-gun
• https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/73式装甲車
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_Mk_20_RH-202
• http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_20mm-65_mk20.php
• 「戦後日本の戦車開発史」by Iwao Hayashi
• http://combat1.sakura.ne.jp/73SHIKI.htm
  • Spoiler

    ・「グランドパワー2012年3月号　自衛隊の車輌と装備 73式装甲車の派生型」　伊吹竜太郎　著　　ガリレオ出版
    ・「グランドパワー2012年1月号　自衛隊の車輌と装備 73式装甲車」　伊吹竜太郎　著　　ガリレオ出版
    ・「世界の軍用車輌(3) 装軌／半装軌式戦闘車輌：1918～2000」　　デルタ出版
    ・「陸上自衛隊 車輌・装備ファイル」　　デルタ出版
    ・「パンツァー2000年11月号　特集 73式装甲車」　林磐男／斎木伸生／水野靖夫　共著　　アルゴノート社
    ・「パンツァー2013年9月号　いよいよ退役が始まる73式装甲車」　大竹勝美　著　　アルゴノート社
    ・「パンツァー2003年10月号　73式装甲車とその試作車輌」　高城正士　著　　アルゴノート社
    ・「パンツァー2003年3月号　陸上自衛隊の試作車輌」　高城正士　著　　アルゴノート社
    ・「世界のAFV 2018～2019」　　アルゴノート社
    ・「自衛隊歴代最強兵器 BEST200」　　成美堂出版
    ・「世界の最新陸上兵器 300」　　成美堂出版
    ・「戦車名鑑 1946～2002 現用編」　　コーエー
    ・「世界の装軌装甲車カタログ」　　三修社
    ・「自衛隊装備年鑑」　　朝雲新聞社
    ・「自衛隊図鑑 2002」　　学研

     

• https://www.webcitation.org/5zIeX5qHr
• http://web.archive.org/web/20030706105021fw_/http://jda-clearing.jda.go.jp:80/kunrei/i_fd/iz1973xd8005.html
• http://type61tank.la.coocan.jp/sub-type73apc-sub.htm

Edited May 30, 2019 by Tasty95215

[leroyonly 4,311]

Open for discussion. 

[Milocat 4,854]

Interesting find!

 

I like it, though I wonder where it would be tiered.  I can see it getting a 4.X BR or something.

[aizenns 3,591]

On 07/07/2018 at 17:27, Tasty95215 said:

More pictures of the SUB-II-2, though I couldn't find out which book this is from

I guess This book is new version (2005) of 「戦後日本の戦車開発史」by Iwao Hayashi.

He is chief engineer of Mitsubishi Armored vehicles section.

 

Full scan of page (old version, 2002)

2005 version is paperback ver. , so it content is same as 2002 ver.

Spoiler

According to this book, this is a photo taken in the test at 1974.

He says this project cancelled by project reader change, and other people says its accuracy is too low.

Also, this is for anti-helicopter weapon to defense its APC. Not a SPAA, but in game I think we can treat this for SPAA.

Edited July 11, 2018 by aizenns

[Tasty95215 2,099]

17 hours ago, aizenns said:

I guess This book is new version (2005) of 「戦後日本の戦車開発史」by Iwao Hayashi.

He is chief engineer of Mitsubishi Armored vehicles section.

 

Full scan of page (old version, 2002)

2005 version is paperback ver. , so it content is same as 2002 ver.

  Reveal hidden contents

According to this book, this is a photo taken in the test at 1974.

He says this project cancelled by project reader change, and other people says its accuracy is too low.

Also, this is for anti-helicopter weapon to defense its APC. Not a SPAA, but in game I think we can treat this for SPAA.

 

Thank you for this information, I'll add it to the original post. I'll also add a poll option on whether this should be treated as an SPAA or a light tank (IFV) in War Thunder. When you said "project cancelled by project reader change", what did you mean?

 

Also, what is the picture on the right showing? Is that another SUB prototype that has an ATGM mounted on it?

Edited July 12, 2018 by Tasty95215

[aizenns 3,591]

On 12/07/2018 at 16:05, Tasty95215 said:

Also, what is the picture on the right showing? Is that another SUB prototype that has an ATGM mounted on it?

Caption says Test of “Height Variable Device”.

I don’t know what is this on the SUB, but I think this is not any missile.

On 12/07/2018 at 16:05, Tasty95215 said:

When you said "project cancelled by project reader change", what did you mean?

Reader of equip 20mm on SUB was changed. Because of it, some people criticize about its 20mm gun accuracy, and this project stopped.

 

[Borotovas 4,500]

+1

[Van_Darkholme69 500]

+1

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

+1 such vehicles should be fun 

[Tasty95215 2,099]

Now that helicopters have been confirmed to be appearing soon, having more AA vehicles would be a definite help for Japan. Plus, the RH202 20mm that the SUB-II-2 has was originally installed to protect against helicopters, so it's even more appropriate!

[XDrake991 278]

+1. Seems to be a good addition in light of recent announcements.

[Tasty95215 2,099]

I almost forgot to mention this, but the Italian tech tree just got a vehicle very similar to the SUB-II-2, which is the R3 T20 FA-HS located in the SPAA branch:

 

 

Both are APC prototypes with a single modern 20mm. Compared to its Italian counterpart, the SUB-II-2 has a slightly better gun - it has a faster ROF and more muzzle velocity. It likely will have more ammo as well due to the chassis' larger size, and it having tracks instead of wheels means it'll have better off-road performance. Finally, it has an extra machine gun in the hull, though that will very rarely be relevant. On the other hand, the R3 has a much better top speed and a better protected crew (the SUB-II-2's gunner is completely exposed).

 

Keeping all of that in mind, where do you think that the SUB-II-2's BR would be? I had previously thought that this would work well in between the So-Ki and the M42 Duster in the Japanese SPAA branch, but the R3 only having a BR of 3.3 makes me doubt that the SUB's BR would be very high.

[JuicyKuuuuki 486]

17 hours ago, Tasty95215 said:

Keeping all of that in mind, where do you think that the SUB-II-2's BR would be? I had previously thought that this would work well in between the So-Ki and the M42 Duster in the Japanese SPAA branch, but the R3 only having a BR of 3.3 makes me doubt that the SUB's BR would be very high.

I was thinking maybe 7.0Br to 7.7Br and moving the modern AA with radars to 8.7br+ such as the Type 87 SPAA.

My reason is because the year it was made, the RH 202 20mm cannon is the same one that kpz 70 has, will add AA in the 7.0s Br gap which Japan is clearly lacking in. 

 

AA doesn't need to kill tanks, just as long as the cannon can shoot down planes more faster. I find the M42 Duster useless.

[Electrolite_xyz 575]

This would be great for the japanese tree, I hope we can get this after the Duster

[Milocat 4,854]

20 minutes ago, Electrolite_xyz said:

This would be great for the japanese tree, I hope we can get this after the Duster

 

Given what happened with a similar vehicle in the Italian tree this is more likely to show up at a BR of 3-4.X.  

[Optical_Ilyushin 5,554]

would love to see it added, Japan needs more AA pieces for certain. +1

[Tasty95215 2,099]

Found something people might find interesting - a photo of one of the other prototypes, the SUB-I. I can't tell if it's the SUB-I-1 or SUB-I-2, though.

 

 

Unfortunately, this only has an M2 Browning so it wouldn't work in War Thunder anywhere. Still, I thought people might find it neat.

[onemax9000 1,243]

On 01/02/2019 at 10:02, Tasty95215 said:

Unfortunately, this only has an M2 Browning so it wouldn't work in War Thunder anywhere. Still, I thought people might find it neat.

the 50cal versions could work as a 1.0 or 1.3 spaa the Italians got there pasta delivery car at 3.3.

also CokeSpray said there's no minimum and maximum caliber restriction.

Quote

There's no minimum/maximum caliber restriction for planes/tanks. You can suggests freely whatever was actually designed. However, for ships there's currently a restriction for suggestions going up to and including heavy cruisers (by default, max. 203mm gun caliber)

 

there isn't a cut-off date going forwards in time, but we generally don't accept vehicles that were built and used pre-WW1. Exceptions here can be made for ships for example, since their design and development philosophy differs from planes and tanks.

 

or this Mitsubishi Type 73 Light Truck Kyū with a rear-mounted Sumitomo M2 heavy machine 

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by onemax9000

[Tasty95215 2,099]

10 hours ago, onemax9000 said:

the 50cal versions could work as a 1.0 or 1.3 spaa the Italians got there pasta delivery car at 3.3.

also CokeSpray said there's no minimum and maximum caliber restriction.

 

or this Mitsubishi Type 73 Light Truck Kyū with a rear-mounted Sumitomo M2 heavy machine 

 

 

 

Ehh, they could work but it seems pretty pointless to me. A single 50 cal would be bad for a dedicated SPAA, even at BR 1.0 - compared to every other nation's first SPAA, they all have either more machine guns or a higher-caliber autocannon. Not to mention Japan's first SPAA, the Isuzu Type 94, is perfectly fine as an SPAA on its own. There isn't really a need for either the Type 73 truck or the other SUB prototypes.

[島風 2,396]

I Don't See Why This Shouldn't Be In WT, Japan Really Lacks SPAA's And Throwing A M42 In The Mix Doesn't Really Favour It. Having The ＳＵＢ In Game Would Really Be Nice

+1

Edited February 3, 2019 by ShimakazeChan
Ｓ　Ｕ　Ｂ

[Tasty95215 2,099]

I found something really interesting! According to this website: http://type61tank.la.coocan.jp/sub-type73apc-sub.htm, the SUB-II-2 has actually been preserved! However, there are several differences between its current form and the one using the RH202 20mm:

 

 

It appears that after it was decided to not use the Rh202 gun, they replaced its turret with the same turret that's on the SUB-II-1 instead. In addition, various equipment such as an extra plate on the upper glacis, an extra plate on the hull side, extra headlights, and the winching equipment were all removed:

 

 

 

For reference, that website also posted pictures of the SUB-II-1 and the SUB-I-1:

 

SUB-II-1

 

SUB-I-1

 

The SUB-I-1 has the extra plate on its hull side too, unlike the preserved SUB-II-2:

 

Edited February 26, 2019 by Tasty95215

[Wolf_89 2,525]

SUB-II-2 would fit nicely in the SPAAG line. As long as it gets Scouting.

[German_Biermacht 14]

+1

[CokeSpray 7,274]

Suggestion passed to the developers for consideration.

[CokeSpray 7,274]

Moved to Implemented Suggestions.