M833

[The_Sogi0@psn 4]

The M833 is an already modeled shell for the top-tier American line, it was fired by the following tanks currently in game for the American tank tech-tree:

> M60A1

> M60A1 RISE

> M1 Abrams

> IPM1 Abrams

 

It would be beneficially for everyone who plays and plays AGAINST America to see this shell in-game (along with the M735 for the M60A1 and the M774 for the M60A1 and M60A1 RISE) and I have a solution.

 

If we give the shell to the tanks we could 1) justify bringing the Abrams battle rating up to 10.3-10.7 and 2) make the M60s viable tanks at higher battle ratings

 

1)      Whenever more tanks are added to WT in other tech-trees such as the later Leopard 2A4 models, T-72s, more T-80s, the Leclerc and perhaps even the Challenger 2 we could bring up the Abrams series up in battle rating and give them the M833 shell. This would be an opportune time to implement this round and bring up the Abrams to a more competitive BR where it can’t club tanks it was objectively designed to defeat and nerf it without modifying the actual performance of the tank.

2)      With the Abrams going up in BR we could add the M735, M774 and M833 to both M60A1 models so they could be competitive at the 8.7-9.3 battle rating. I have played both tanks EXTENSIVELY and the reason neither of them do good at top tier is because they cannot fit into a proper niche. The M60A1s both have lackluster penetration at ranges past 1.5km and if they were given the higher tier APFSDS rounds they could compete with tanks such as the T-64B and Type 90 by filling the role of sniper. Maybe we could see the M60A3 TTS or SLEP (new Raytheon upgrade package with the 120mm M256A1 smooth bore and upgraded mobility) and maybe the XM1 could get the M774 and M833 and be brought up to 9.7 or 10.0 (I don’t know how accurate that is though).

 

I’d love to hear suggestions to this as it is only a bare bones proposition to make the higher tiers of WT more competitive without the sacrifice of realism and historical accuracy starting out with the bane of EVERYONE, top tier America. This is to appeal to the people who just want to play out the T-64A without getting their teeth kicked in, the people who want the M833 for the Abrams and the 5 people who enjoy the M60A1s who wish the M60 series didn’t suck as much as it did.

Like I said, leave more suggestions for this topic and your ideas for other nations in the comments I’d honestly love to hear them.

 

 

I couldn’t be bothered to find sources on my own so here are more credible and well put together entries:

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/414700-add-the-m833-ammunition-apfsds-to-the-m1-abrams/

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/402727-fwd-mar172018-m60a1-rise-passive-missing-m774-and-m833-apfsds/

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/414698-add-the-m735-ammunition-apfsds-to-the-m60a1-aos/

 

[MiseryIndex556@psn 13,154]

We don’t need another M833 thread. We already have multiple threads on the issue and it’s not going to change anything. Gaijin doesn’t want the shell in the game. The German and Russian players don’t want the shell in the game. It’s not going to happen. 

[Aerobane 4,140]

 

 

[Hoods_CZ 78]

Gaijin will never add it. Maybe in two years and it will be underpowered. 

[Anju_Yuuki 983]

thread with the same topic

[ThreeGorgesDam 3,269]

Wait until Russia has T-14M Armata with 152mm railgun, and Germany is using Leopard3A8 with 130mm railgun, then come back and ask for M833.

[MiseryIndex556@psn 13,154]

5 minutes ago, ANDROMADA said:

Wait until Russia has T-14M Armata with 152mm railgun, and Germany is using Leopard3A8 with 130mm railgun, then come back and ask for M833.

 

This.

 

US will only get the M833 when it will be completely useless.

[The_Sogi0@psn 4]

On 13/10/2018 at 23:08, *MiseryIndex556 said:

 

This.

 

US will only get the M833 when it will be completely useless.

 

If we add more tier 6 tanks such as T-72s, Leclercs, the Leopard 2A4s with the updated armor and other tanks you could get away with the M833 and its not just for the Abrams its for the respective M60s. If you could make other tanks in the American line more viable you could get away with:

1) Bumping up the Abrams in BR

and

2) Bumping up the other M60s in BR

 

I am advocating for this also so we can get historically accurate rounds for more tanks such as the DM33 and DM33A1 for the Leopard 2A4 and the Jericho for the Challenger. The omission of rounds is whats killing top tier

[Admiral_Aruon 2,264]

the M1IP should get the M833, but only if that brings the M1IP up to 10.3 BR. that just helps everyone since 9.0 players are no longer stuck playing whackamuhabrooms with the M1IP/M1/XM-1 "Father, Son, and the holy Seal clubbing" trio of doom and now only have to deal with the XM-1, save for what will then be the once-upon-a-blue-moon 9-10.0 downtier.

 

 

meanwhile the M60A1 and RISE both actually should get M833 because... well... how the hell else are they going to do anything? and it's not even that amazing of a round to begin with when compared to what the T-64B and T-80B have STOCK. it doesn't help that the M60 line is a total dead end with no point to even bother researching since there's nothing like... *unfurls scroll*

 

General Dynamics M60/AX "Super 60"

General Dynamics M60-2000/120S Project (basically M1A1 turret on M60A3 chassis)

General Dynamics M60A3-120 Super Scorpion (Alacrán being spanish for scorpion) (Spain) (this is what later got Raytheon to design the M60A3 SLEP)

Raytheon M60A3 SLEP

M60 Phoenix (Jordan)

Magach 6B Gal Batash and Magach 7C (Israel)

Sabra mk.I, Sabra mk.II/M60T, Sabra mk.3 (Israel; Sabra mk.II known as M60T in Turkish service)

 

...more advanced tanks to put after the native M60 variants.

[OsirisD 4,025]

Only thing that Abrams needs is a normal owner who enjoy this arguably best tank in game.

Current ammunition is good enough and you already have best lineup. 

When M833 will be needed GJ will add it so stop crying dude.

 

Do I really have to say it?

Edited October 15, 2018 by OzyrysD

[GildyMenn21@psn 482]

2 hours ago, OzyrysD said:

Only thing that Abrams needs is a normal owner who enjoy this arguably best tank in game.

Current ammunition is good enough and you already have best lineup. 

When M833 will be needed GJ will add it so stop crying dude.

 

Do I really have to say it?

"Best tank in-game" not exactly. 

 

The M1 is still an easy penetrable target from the front by 120 and 125mm (M1 1KM/M1IP 100M-500M) which takes 1-3 rounds to kill 1, the M1 is tough to be penetrated from the sides because of the space inside the tank same can be said about the 2A4. The turret traverse also can save the tank in difficult situation, the speed is slightly better(M1) compared to the 2A4 and Type-90 but the M1IP similair to the T-80B, 2A4 and Type-90.

 

The current ammunations it haves are 50/50, the M735 is pretty good for side shots but lacks flatpen while the M774 is is good at flatpen and 60 degrees but the damage it gives inside the tank is little. If gaijin corrects the M774 performance it will result the M774 to have an lower flatpen(lower then 400mm) but will have an higher pen/performance at 60 degrees, so the M774 will be usefull against the T-64B and T-80B but will be worse against the 2A4 and Type-90.

 

Thats where the M833 becomes handy, the M833 is comparable to the DM23 its slightly inferior then the DM23 in flatpen(410-430mm) but haves similair performance against 60 degrees then again it will only be useful against the T-64B and T-80B.

 

The reason the US is at its top is because of an second M1 abrams(which still is an normal M1 which only provide slightly better turret protection against KE)and CAS, if other nation get the same things the US haves the you will see that either germany or japan is gone dominate Top Tier and The US will stand in the same position like in patch 1.79 until they receive the 120mm M256.

 

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by *GildyMenn21

[MiseryIndex556@psn 13,154]

6 hours ago, OzyrysD said:

Only thing that Abrams needs is a normal owner who enjoy this arguably best tank in game.

Current ammunition is good enough and you already have best lineup.

 

Being the best tank in game didn’t stop the Leo 2A4 from getting a massive buff. 

 

 

Quote

When M833 will be needed GJ will add it so stop crying dude.

 

Do I really have to say it?

 

Repeating this nonsense over and over doesn’t make it true. The current Rise P in game never used any of the ammo it currently has. That tank is trash and Gaijin refuses to add either the M774 or M833, both of which were issued to the Rise P in combat. 

Edited October 15, 2018 by *MiseryIndex556

[The_Sogi0@psn 4]

Idk why everyone acts like M833 would be game breaking when the JM33 is comparable to the M829 120mm round that the M1A1 originally fired. M833 would only give the Abrams the advantage of being able to penetrate a T-64B from the front and POSSIBLY go through the turret of a T-64A. If the BR was brought up to 10.3 or 10.7 that would mitigate the already minuscule improvement of performance the round will give to the Abrams. Secondly, everyone is completely overlooking or willingly ignoring the fact that I mentioned that the M60s should get this round AND more types of M60 (there are literally tons of them) should be added to the game so the only viable American tank is NOT the M1 Abrams which debatable is not even that good. Also,  why would the M833 be considered broken when the DM12 HEAT round chews through every Soviet tank like its made of plastic

[ThreeGorgesDam 3,269]

36 minutes ago, *xXGeneralTappyXx said:

Idk why everyone acts like M833 would be game breaking when the JM33 is comparable to the M829 120mm round that the M1A1 originally fired. M833 would only give the Abrams the advantage of being able to penetrate a T-64B from the front and POSSIBLY go through the turret of a T-64A. If the BR was brought up to 10.3 or 10.7 that would mitigate the already minuscule improvement of performance the round will give to the Abrams. Secondly, everyone is completely overlooking or willingly ignoring the fact that I mentioned that the M60s should get this round AND more types of M60 (there are literally tons of them) should be added to the game so the only viable American tank is NOT the M1 Abrams which debatable is not even that good. Also,  why would the M833 be considered broken when the DM12 HEAT round chews through every Soviet tank like its made of plastic

This is why I suggested M1A1 in the past. But everyone said that would be OP. I found that extremely hypocritical since Type 90 is still spamming lolpen JM33 every 5 seconds with an autoloader (doesn't care about crew skill) with comparable or superior armor to the M1IP.

[SnipersTouch 525]

you cant compare that since the type 90 can be killed by anything

[ThreeGorgesDam 3,269]

25 minutes ago, SnipersTouch said:

you cant compare that since the type 90 can be killed by anything

Yes I can because so could M1A1.

[The_Sogi0@psn 4]

2 hours ago, ANDROMADA said:

Yes I can because so could M1A1.

I hope they had the M1A1HA/C with the fabled M829A1 silverbullet as a meme lol

[Pardus_Primera 1,884]

On 15/10/2018 at 17:40, *MiseryIndex556 said:

 

Being the best tank in game didn’t stop the Leo 2A4 from getting a massive buff. 

 

 

Leo 2A4 best tank ingame? That has litterally never been the case.

 

And please enlighten us on this massive buff of which you speak, because it certainly wasn't the fantasy DM23 Gaijin came up with.

[MiseryIndex556@psn 13,154]

4 minutes ago, Panthera_Pardus said:

 

Leo 2A4 best tank ingame? That has litterally never been the case.

 

1.79, when hoards of Leos dominated top tier. 

 

4 minutes ago, Panthera_Pardus said:

And please enlighten us on this massive buff of which you speak, because it certainly wasn't the fantasy DM23 Gaijin came up with.

 

The massive buff at 60 degrees. 

[OldMachineNazara 407]

If Gaijin properly armors tanks and gives them their real rounds, and makes much larger maps for MBTs (considering MBTs these days normally fight at extreme ranges), then we can talk about the M833 or better for the Abrams. At the moment though, the Abrams ammo choice is fine how it is.

Edited October 16, 2018 by KHEEEEENSCREAM

[Pardus_Primera 1,884]

On 16/10/2018 at 20:06, *MiseryIndex556 said:

 

1.79, when hoards of Leos dominated top tier. 

 

 

The massive buff at 60 degrees. 

 

At 1.79 the Leopard 2A4 was not the best tank, that was still the Abrams. Unless you wanna tell me what magically changed with the Abrams from 1.79 to 1.81?

 

And that "massive" buff to 60 deg performance didn't really matter when they at the same time buffed the only tanks with such steep frontal armour (T-XX) now did it? Esp. when they at the same time massively nerfed the DM23's post pen damage to be half that of all other APFSDS rounds.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Panthera_Pardus

[MiseryIndex556@psn 13,154]

4 hours ago, Panthera_Pardus said:

 

At 1.79 the Leopard 2A4 was not the best tank, that was still the Abrams. Unless you wanna tell me what magically changed with the Abrams from 1.79 to 1.81?

 

The Leo 2A4 matched the Abrams in K/D and had a massive win rate advantage. What changed? The addition of US helicopters and the Bullpups.

 

4 hours ago, Panthera_Pardus said:

 

And that "massive" buff to 60 deg performance didn't really matter when they at the same time buffed the only tanks with such steep frontal armour (T-XX) now did it? Esp. when they at the same time massively nerfed the DM23's post pen damage to be half that of all other APFSDS rounds.

 

It's still a massive buff. The difference is the M774 is just that much more irrelevant at top tier.

[Pardus_Primera 1,884]

3 minutes ago, *MiseryIndex556 said:

 

The Leo 2A4 matched the Abrams in K/D and had a massive win rate advantage. What changed? The addition of US helicopters and the Bullpups.

 

 

It's still a massive buff. The difference is the M774 is just that much more irrelevant at top tier.

 

The Leo 2A4 was farming on XM-1s, as was the Leo 2K and Leo A1A1 even. That is what changed. At no point has the Leo 2A4 been the best tank as you claim.

 

As it currently stands the M774 is more effective than the DM23 thanks to it actually doing proper dmg after penetration.

Edited October 18, 2018 by Panthera_Pardus

[Anju_Yuuki 983]

On 16/10/2018 at 00:59, ANDROMADA said:

This is why I suggested M1A1 in the past. But everyone said that would be OP. I found that extremely hypocritical

You from all the people found it hypocritical? For you not even the M1A1 would be enough, not even with M833 shells. 

 

On 16/10/2018 at 00:59, ANDROMADA said:

Type 90 is still spamming lolpen JM33 every 5 seconds with an autoloader (doesn't care about crew skill) 

The only reason JM33 is lolpening everyone is because it has a high penetration value for flat armor... in which all of the MBTs are the cheeks of the M1 or the leopard. Only the T-64b / T-80b is going to give it trouble because of how the contact 1 armor will work and the slope of the armor. If you got a problem with that ask a M1 designer why the cheeks was almost or just slightly angled. 

[Stormwolf7 4,898]

12 hours ago, Panthera_Pardus said:

At 1.79 the Leopard 2A4 was not the best tank, that was still the Abrams. Unless you wanna tell me what magically changed with the Abrams from 1.79 to 1.81? 

 

Optics (including M1s) are now absorbing ridiculous amounts of damage and the DM23 had its damage cut in half so it couldn't reliably kill M1 gunner and commander in 1.81 while it could in 1.79.

 

That's a direct change to the interaction between M1 and Leo2A4...

 

(T-64B and Type 90 still have no trouble crippling M1s, Type 90s still kill them right through the turret.)