Politically correct swastika replacement [possible decal]

[Ein79 5,749]

For many reasons, both those related to legislation in individual countries and ethics, we do not have swastikas in the game. 

 

I do not want to question them, although it seems strange to me that at the same time it is permissible to use the stickers "За Сталина"/"for Stalin", which is the affirmation of the person responsible for mass murders and other crimes against his own and other nations..Ok, never mind.

 

However, I think that it is worth considering a compromise that will combine political correctness and the historical appearance of vehicles in the game. At least in the form of a complementary, optional decal.

 

In my opinion, the most correct and aesthetically neat substitute for a swastika is a symbol / icon being the outline of a square with gaps in the lines:  
 

This symbol has been accepted by flying Bf109's collectors in Germany and is accepted even by the very strict German law:

 

(source: 

 

 

Also in the games:

 

 

Please, leave your opinion.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Einherjer1979

[Tantor57 10,318]

use user made custom skin... Problem solved.

 

 

[Turra 1,439]

10 minutes ago, Tantor57 said:

use user made custom skin... Problem solved.

 

 

i think what OP is getting at is that this could be a skin in game that everyone can see when looking at it and not only the one that has the user made custom skin.

[Ein79 5,749]

18 minutes ago, Tantor57 said:

use user made custom skin... Problem solved.

 

 

Following this line of thought, all decals like skulls, jaws, national emblems, emblems of units, texts/typography and so on could be removed from the game - want one of them? Use user made custom skin...
Nobody will see them outside of your computer? Doesn't matter.

 

Problem solved?

 

9 minutes ago, Turra said:

i think what OP is getting at is that this could be a skin in game that everyone can see when looking at it and not only the one that has the user made custom skin.

Thx.

[Valcour 1,141]

Seems like a workable option but while it bothered me at first I have grown used to this "safe" version of the Third Reich's emblem.  The bar pattern the OP proposed is actually used (or was) used by some Neo-Nazi groups though which is why Gaijin may be avoiding it as well.

 

[Ein79 5,749]

8 minutes ago, Valcour said:

Seems like a workable option but while it bothered me at first I have grown used to this "safe" version of the Third Reich's emblem.  The bar pattern the OP proposed is actually used (or was) used by some Neo-Nazi groups though which is why Gaijin may be avoiding it as well.

 

I am convinced that if this were a real phenomenon, it wouldn't be possible to register such a painted Bf109 in Germany, where there is an extremely restrictive "anti-nazi" law. 
And we have at least three such Bf109 with civil registration numbers.

[krise_madsen 441]

I don't care for swastikas, but the naked tailfins on German planes hurt my eyes. OP's idea is fine by me, or alternatively just some square with the corners pointing up/down and left/right, transparent in the middle and in black or white versions (depending on the camo colour of the aircraft).

[_IFF 608]

While I do fly my fair share of planes depicting those of the Luftwaffe I can't say my enjoyment is dependent on whatever the color, decals or other graphical representation is. Get the aircraft performance close-enough and you can make the graphics be a cat trailing a rainbow.

 

[vapi_ 12]

Early aircraft have a cross instead of the swastika on their tails
It makes me wonder why Gaijin didn't keep this design for the rest of the tree


I do think the design the OP sugested looks better tho

Edited November 25, 2018 by vapi_

[Diabel_Z_Piekla 694]

That's wierd when swastika is banned but sickle&hammer is completly legit...

[Adapt73 479]

LoL, I don't understand, what is wrong with Historically correct.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words and images can not hurt me.

 

Just make it historical, IMO.

[krise_madsen 441]

 

6 hours ago, Diabel_Z_Piekla said:

That's wierd when swastika is banned but sickle&hammer is completly legit...

 

2 hours ago, Adapt73 said:

LoL, I don't understand, what is wrong with Historically correct.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words and images can not hurt me.

 

Just make it historical, IMO.

 

Certain symbols and images are banned in various countries, and since Gaijin wants to sell their game in those countries, certain symbols and images are not fond in the game - the swastika being the most obvious.

 

It has nothing to do with historical correctness or what's fair or anything like that. It has everything to do with what's legal in various countries and what isn't.

 

[Ein79 5,749]

4 hours ago, krise_madsen said:

[...] It has everything to do with what's legal in various countries and what isn't.

 

So what about bringing legal and neat looking replacement in to the game?

[JZ_pdw 3,037]

 

5 hours ago, krise_madsen said:

Certain symbols and images are banned in various countries, and since Gaijin wants to sell their game in those countries, certain symbols and images are not fond in the game - the swastika being the most obvious.

Yes it is true, but if they censor swastikas, they should also censor communist symbols as well. For example in Poland it goes something like this:

 

Whoever publicly promotes a fascist or other totalitarian system of state or incites hatred based on national, ethnic, race of religious differences or for reason of lack of any religious denomination shall be subject to a fine, the penalty of restriction of liberty or the penalty of deprivation of liberty for up to 2 years.

 

So swastika is a nono, but decals like "for Stalin", "Death to German enemies" as well as numerous decals with hammer and sickle are ok? Seriously, you can put a big, fat "за сталина"(for Stalin) on your plane/tank but you can't put a swastika on your plane. Not that I care about political corectness, I think all symbols should be present in game because otherwise we're just misrepresting the history.

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Rclz

[krise_madsen 441]

 

1 hour ago, Einherjer1979 said:

So what about bringing legal and neat looking replacement in to the game?

 

Fine by me.

 

1 hour ago, Rclz said:

 

Yes it is true, but if they censor swastikas, they should also censor communist symbols as well. For example in Poland it goes something like this:

 

Whoever publicly promotes a fascist or other totalitarian system of state or incites hatred based on national, ethnic, race of religious differences or for reason of lack of any religious denomination shall be subject to a fine, the penalty of restriction of liberty or the penalty of deprivation of liberty for up to 2 years.

 

So swastika is a nono, but decals like "for Stalin", "Death to German enemies" as well as numerous decals with hammer and sickle are ok? Seriously, you can put a big, fat "за сталина"(for Stalin) on your plane/tank but you can't put a swastika on your plane. Not that I care about political corectness, I think all symbols should be present in game because otherwise we're just misrepresting the history.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Again, its about legality; not what's fair, equal or historically correct. Whether one facist/totalitarian/whatever symbol is allowed and another isn't is up to the legal system. Gaijin just do what they must to sell the game in as many countries as possible. If you feel the current situation is unfair you should take it up with the legislative entities in your part of the world.

[Diabel_Z_Piekla 694]

11 hours ago, krise_madsen said:

in, its about legality; not what's fair, equal or historically correct.

Indeed it is. You can't ban symbols of one murderous system while symbols of second murderous system (much more murderous and bloody IMHO) are completly common in pop-culture. That's illogical.

 

When nazi Germany kept millions of people in concetration and death camps in USSR milions of people were kept in concetration camps, digging gold in Kolyma (Dalstroj, so in english transliteraton it should be Dalstroy - second biggest slave work camps directorate after GULag) mines to pay for L-L. They were killed, starved to death, killed by criminal prisoners... Seems pretty similar, eh? It was worse cause that system gave them false hope that with hard inhuman work they can redeem their guilts. But thats also seems familiarny...

 

But that's fine cause they destroyed empire of evil. One of they biggest BS in they history of the world. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Diabel_Z_Piekla

[Nell_Lucifer 927]

Didn't Germany lifted the ban on swastika for video games?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45142651

[cashmeowsidehbd 1,269]

15 hours ago, Rclz said:

 

Yes it is true, but if they censor swastikas, they should also censor communist symbols as well. For example in Poland it goes something like this:

 

Whoever publicly promotes a fascist or other totalitarian system of state or incites hatred based on national, ethnic, race of religious differences or for reason of lack of any religious denomination shall be subject to a fine, the penalty of restriction of liberty or the penalty of deprivation of liberty for up to 2 years.

 

So swastika is a nono, but decals like "for Stalin", "Death to German enemies" as well as numerous decals with hammer and sickle are ok? Seriously, you can put a big, fat "за сталина"(for Stalin) on your plane/tank but you can't put a swastika on your plane. Not that I care about political corectness, I think all symbols should be present in game because otherwise we're just misrepresting the history.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Gaijin is just following the laws. If those phrases were illegal in certain countries than they would not allow them either. 

[SuperDuperOtter 655]

1 hour ago, Nell_Lucifer said:

Didn't Germany lifted the ban on swastika for video games?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45142651

 

To some degree only, but yes.

 

Though germany isn't the only country where the law heavely restrict the use of some specific iconography, or other wise hate-ideology material.

Out of my mind, i think France, Austria, Israel, Russia all explicitly prohibit the public display of Nazi iconography, including swastikas. (even ownership of Nazy iconographic items is prohibited in some countries)

Other countries, while not directly making it out-right illegal, have regulation restricting the use of Nazi iconography. That would be countries like Canada, Finland, Czech Republic, etc. All have some degrees of legislation making the use of Nazi related stuff subject to ban or heavy regulation/restriction.

 

Many of the un-direct bans/regulatios are targeted at ideologies against Human Righs at large. And for the country that specify which ideologies are trageted or give exemples (such as Czech Republic), most list Sovietic Communism along side Germany's National Socialism.

So, technicaly, If Gaijin is not using Swastika because of laws of countries the game is available, Communist iconography wouldn't be in the game either.

 

The reason why Nazi iconography isn't in the game while Communist iconography is, is becasue of the laws of the country where Gaijin's HQ is : Russia. Where Nazi-stuff is banned while Soviet stuff isn't.

Edited November 27, 2018 by SuperDuperOtter

[Pony51 6,571]

Would it be better to call it "Hakenkreuz"?

That is the German word for swastika, and it means "Hook Cross"

 

Swastika is the ancient, internationally used word for any kind of "bent leg" radiating symbol.

Most cultures around the world used and still use swastikas, so by using the German form the version referred is certain.

 

Yue Long motors symbol.

 

 

 

 

 

[SuperDuperOtter 655]

Ah, you make a good point.

 

We should name this symbol a Hakenkreuz in the context of Germany's National Socialism iconogrpahy.

 

The issue is ... what we should call things vs what ppl think of when they hear/read the words are different things. Even more in places like here, where many ppl use English to communicate while it's not their primary/native language. (even if in this specific case, neither of the words are English ones). The "Hakenkreuz" word doesn't bring the Nazi symbol in the mind of most ppl, while the word "Swastika" does.

 

Communication is a funny thing. There are very specific words to describe very specific things. But many of these specific words are not well known and when known, often missunderstood/missinterpreted. To actually acheive communication, conveying the actual idea you meant to convey, you often have to use the "wrong word".

The best way to proceed would be to use both words every time we (knownledgeable ppl on the subject) intend to use the "rigth word", being descriptive and educative in order to spread the kownledge of the "rigth word". We should refer to this symbol some ways simialr to : "Hakenkreuz (Nazi's use of the Swastika)". That way, we migth hope to spread at least the understanding of the right word among the general public.

Edited November 29, 2018 by SuperDuperOtter

[krise_madsen 441]

20 hours ago, Pony51 said:

Would it be better to call it "Hakenkreuz"?

That is the German word for swastika, and it means "Hook Cross"

 

Swastika is the ancient, internationally used word for any kind of "bent leg" radiating symbol.

Most cultures around the world used and still use swastikas, so by using the German form the version referred is certain.

 

Yue Long motors symbol.

 

 

 

 

 

I'd suggest using the term "Nazi Hakenkreuz" or "Nazi swastika" to distinguish the Nazi use of the symbol. Not that I think it makes any difference in regards to tail markings.

[SuperDuperOtter 655]

1 hour ago, krise_madsen said:

I'd suggest using the term "Nazi Hakenkreuz" or "Nazi swastika" to distinguish the Nazi use of the symbol. Not that I think it makes any difference in regards to tail markings.

 

hum, no.

 

The "Hakenkreuz" specificaly refer to the symbol used by German's National Socialist Party (Nazi) during the 30's-40's time period, unless explicitly stated other wise (ex : modern use/variants of the symbol by current far-right ideological groups).

 

"Nazi Swastika" is very easily missinterpreted as meaning that the Swastika would be Nazi by defualt/origin. The Hakenkreuz must be describe as Nazism's use of the Swastika symbol in order to imply the symbol's non-Nazi origin.

[Adapt73 479]

"Whoever publicly promotes a fascist or other totalitarian system of state or incites hatred based on national, ethnic, race of religious differences or for reason of lack of any religious denomination shall be subject to a fine, the penalty of restriction of liberty or the penalty of deprivation of liberty for up to 2 years."

 

Is having the symbol in a WWII video game on Vehicles that had them, really considered, "publicly promotes a fascist or other totalitarian system"

 

Lol, automatically means promoting Nazi and hate?, seems a bit extreme and absurd.

Now if you IRL grabbed a flag and headed down the street, or mounted it on the outside of your home.

That could be considered "Promoting"

Now I don't expect the rules to change because of what I said. I know no one here or in Gaijin has any control over that.

Just Figured I would share why I think it's just silliness.

[JZ_pdw 3,037]

57 minutes ago, Adapt73 said:

"Whoever publicly promotes a fascist or other totalitarian system of state or incites hatred based on national, ethnic, race of religious differences or for reason of lack of any religious denomination shall be subject to a fine, the penalty of restriction of liberty or the penalty of deprivation of liberty for up to 2 years."

 

Is having the symbol in a WWII video game on Vehicles that had them, really considered, "publicly promotes a fascist or other totalitarian system"

 

Lol, automatically means promoting Nazi and hate?, seems a bit extreme and absurd.

Now if you IRL grabbed a flag and headed down the street, or mounted it on the outside of your home.

That could be considered "Promoting"

Now I don't expect the rules to change because of what I said. I know no one here or in Gaijin has any control over that.

Just Figured I would share why I think it's just silliness.

Gaijin's explanation for not having swastikas in game is something alongside the lines "it's illegal in some countries so we don't have it at all". I simply don't understand why swastika is not in game because "it's illegal", but hammer and sickle as well as "for Stalin" decals are perfectly fine. I just quoted the penal code to show that nazism, communism and other totalitarian systems are treated equally by law. It doesn't mean I think Gaijin should go to prison for "promoting" communism

I think there is even an exception to this law where using any totalitarian symbols is permitted in art or historic materials. I suppose game is also a form of art, so there would be no legal consequences of having swastikas in game. At least in Poland.

 

Obviously Gaijin won't ever have swastikas in WT, because average German player has a lot of money to spend and not censoring nazi symbols means you can't sell your game in Germany.