F.100D : serving la république

[Functor 230]

Greetings pilots,

 

We now have an excellent writeup of Super Mystère available here:

I wholeheartedly support it but to say that only one jet of such class served l'armée de l'air française would be incorrect.

 

It is all history now, but around a hundred of F.100 (mostly D's and some F's) served in France from 1958 till as late as 1978 (compare with roughly 200 of Super Mystère's). They even participated in the Algeria war and were upgraded to deal with the structural issues after the French saw their weaknesses (mostly from American tests). The camouflages of many of such F.100 are available online and on the surviving exemplaires in museums. I will provide links below, some in French, but the material is really readily available if you make research. Historically it does not make sense to not include this jet as a French jet, in my humble opinion.

 

Gameplay-wise, the reasons to introduce the F.100D into the French branch would be the following. Let me list the (relevant to gameplay) stats of Super Mystère, which I will take from the post I quote above:

 

    Maximum speed: Mach 1.12 --- outclassed by F.100D (as in game or in Wiki)
    Rate of climb: 89 m / s (18,000 ft / min) --- same value as in Wikipedia, and there F.100D has 114 m/s, thus outclassed
    Thrust / weight: 0.50 ---  slightly outclassed by F.100D,

    Guns: 2 × 30 mm (1.18 in) DEFA 552 cannons with 150 rounds per gun --- outclassed by F.100D
    Missiles: 2 × Rafael Shafrir AAMs; 2 × AS-30L --- outclassed by F.100D as you have 2 missiles on Sup Mystère and not 4
    Bombs and Rockets --- arguably on par, though outclassed if you accept that F.100D had Bullpups. I unfortunately have not found any detailed references explaining the payload of French F.100D, everywhere it     is just some "generic" payload; we can assume that it is the same or reduce it somewhat if necessary.

 

This explains why I voted for Super Mystère to be 9.3. The F.100D is simply better, and will be necessary if <=10.0 BR should remain a proper battle rating with balanced gameplay. MiG19s have similarly bad armament (a bit worse I agree), but that is compensated by excellent climbrate and comparable (though slightly lesser) maximum speed when we face them against the current F.100's. Another option is of course to do the B.4 variant of SMystère, but I think it is a bit incorrect for a project that positions itself on historical accuracy to introduce a prototype (which I would approve) and not give the aircraft dozens of which served the army of the air.

 

Given F.100D is already in the game, I do not see any need to include the stats here. Instead, besides a few links, I will include some images. Many more are available if one follows the references below.

 

References (sorry, I speak French, but I invite you to try Google Translate as the results are pretty good):

 

http://jets.for.ever.pagesperso-orange.fr/Pages/F-100 Fr.htm

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_F-100_Super_Sabre

http://avions-de-la-guerre-d-algerie.over-blog.com/article-north-american-f-100-d-et-f-francais-122102957.html

http://www.pilote-chasse-11ec.com/le-f100-sous-les-cocardes-francaises/

 

 

Edited January 10, 2019 by Functor

[CokeSpray 7,272]

Open for discussion.

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

I say no. 

 

The F-100 should remain unique to the US and the French with their own designs alone will be top dogs at tier 6/the French will have enough designs at tier 6. 

 

A good number of Mirages, Etendards and two Super Mysteres  no need for lend-lease. 

 

They even had the Super Mystere B.4 in real life which was better than the F-100D in overall speed performance. Less top speed but much higher T/W. 

[Functor 230]

4 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

I say no. 

 

The F-100 should remain unique to the US and the French with their own designs alone will be top dogs at tier 6/the French will have enough designs at tier 6. 

 

A good number of Mirages, Etendards and two Super Mysteres  no need for lend-lease. 

 

They even had the Super Mystere B.4 in real life which was better than the F-100D in overall speed performance. Less top speed but much higher T/W. 

 

The French F.100D is not ``lend-lease'' as that term stopped making sense in 1945. It is a foreign-built vehicle but it left noticeable traces in the history of early French jet military aviation. It even got some France-issued wing upgrades at the end of its service (though no need to introduce that in game).

 

The B.4 existed in 2 prototypes; the dozens of F.100D served in multiple regiments. In my opinion we need both (and maybe even B.4 first), and as I said I find it a bit not quite historical that a prototype will be spammed out in numbers and not the existent production machine in service. And as I think you mention, B.4 feels like a Mig-19 (less speed more T/W) so F.100D is a variety addition, not a clone.

 

As for Mirages etc, that is another BR, and yes, France has a lot to contribute at >10.0; it is the window between 9.0 and 10.0 BR that is concerning if we are given only the B.2: it will be the Barougan/Ouragan all over again. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2019 by Functor

[Trotrodor 2,670]

better than nothing in my opinion, especially when we so how ignore france was in tier V (no mystère IVA)

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

10 hours ago, Functor said:

 

The French F.100D is not ``lend-lease'' as that term stopped making sense in 1945. It is a foreign-built vehicle but it left noticeable traces in the history of early French jet military aviation. It even got some France-issued wing upgrades at the end of its service (though no need to introduce that in game).

 

 

Whatever the term may be, no foreign vehicles are needed for the French jet line. When a nation has enough designs from IRL to be added to the game the argument of " because this foreign vehicle that was used in many more numbers should be added" becomes irrelevant.

 

10 hours ago, Functor said:

The B.4 existed in 2 prototypes; the dozens of F.100D served in multiple regiments. In my opinion we need both (and maybe even B.4 first), and as I said I find it a bit not quite historical that a prototype will be spammed out in numbers and not the existent production machine in service. And as I think you mention, B.4 feels like a Mig-19 (less speed more T/W) so F.100D is a variety addition, not a clone.

 

You are the first person to feel negatively about prototypes being used in large numbers in a game I think  

The F-100D is already a variety addition (in the US tech tree) and there is no need to make it a "variety addition x2".

 

10 hours ago, Functor said:

As for Mirages etc, that is another BR, and yes, France has a lot to contribute at >10.0; it is the window between 9.0 and 10.0 BR that is concerning if we are given only the B.2: it will be the Barougan/Ouragan all over again. 

 

 

10.0 BR right now defines early supersonic jets. Early supersonic jet designs that didn't go past the sound barrier by much (like the F-100 and MiG-19 were quite rare since immediately after their introduction, the major nations decided to go much faster. The Super Mystere B.2 and B.4 alone will be enough as "10.0 BR type of supersonic jets" if you know what I mean.

[Functor 230]

@EpicBlitzkrieg87 I think our common point of depart is that we both agree that SMB2 alone is not enough. You propose SMB4, and I want to see an F.100D in addition to that (maybe in later patches), something that you oppose. 

 

4 hours ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

When a nation has enough designs from IRL to be added to the game the argument of " because this foreign vehicle that was used in many more numbers should be added" becomes irrelevant.

 

That can be a point of view. But it remains subjective nonetheless. For me historically used vehicles are relevant, for as I said, there is part of war thunder that prides itself on being historical etc. 

 

I am fine with prototypes per se provided they are not overly questionable (good: SMB4, bad:  tiger 10.5) and all other things that are historically true to the given nation were/will be added at the BR in question. In case of France we are not even dealing with the east/west Germany division that plagues the WG/DDR debate. 

 

Either way I respect your point of view, we can agree to disagree and let others make their own mind. 

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

1 hour ago, Functor said:

That can be a point of view. But it remains subjective nonetheless. For me historically used vehicles are relevant, for as I said, there is part of war thunder that prides itself on being historical etc. 

 

I am fine with prototypes per se provided they are not overly questionable (good: SMB4, bad:  tiger 10.5) and all other things that are historically true to the given nation were/will be added at the BR in question. In case of France we are not even dealing with the east/west Germany division that plagues the WG/DDR debate. 

 

Either way I respect your point of view, we can agree to disagree and let others make their own mind. 

 

It is subjective, and from my point of view I don't see why you would want to make the F-100D less unique to the US and copy-paste it into a tech tree that won't need it because it had enough designs. 

[RanchSauce39 397]

i support. F100D would fill the early tier 6 gap. as its better than the Super Mystere..

 

France will have plenty of its own in house  fighter designs but thats mostly come about later with Mach 2 era of planes such as with the Mirage 3. and later.

 

For those complaining F84G is already in the French tree along with a Skyraider, I dont see why an F100D cant be added. Its  part of thier service histry, and besides I think there will be yet another needed to address french naval aviation in terms of Fighters, France adopted the F8 Crusader for naval operations to protect its fleets but i digress here.

[Nicolaser 2,024]

Well the f100S is an french upgraded version of the f100f so if no one wants the f100d in the french tree we can ask for an f100s

[foestus 485]

Super Mystère never got the Rafael Shafrir  only the israelian version got it, so no the Super Mystère shouldn't be a possibility as first T6 for french air tree with this configuration.

Edited January 15, 2019 by foestus

[Functor 230]

4 hours ago, Nicolaser said:

Well the f100S is an french upgraded version of the f100f so if no one wants the f100d in the french tree we can ask for an f100s

Interesting, do you have any confirmation that it was actually built? 

[Miki_Hoshii 2,449]

4 minutes ago, Functor said:

Interesting, do you have any confirmation that it was actually built? 

Simply proposed.

 

 

Anyways +1

[Nicolaser 2,024]

5 hours ago, Functor said:

Interesting, do you have any confirmation that it was actually built? 

Currently I only got wiki for sources (french and English version) and there's not much info on the plane

Edited January 15, 2019 by Nicolaser

[IxiRip 182]

I would be okay if it is a event(/special task?) reward aircraft if it is to be added one day in the french TT.

Otherwise no.

[gennaroita 113]

this is the first vehicle suggestion that i say NO to ... keep the F100 to USA, dont woryy france has a lot more unique and cool aircraft and a copy n paste isnt needed atm  

[Z3r0_ 4,127]

Unlike the mid-tiers, the French aren't lacking for anything domestic to fill out their top tiers.  I'd be fine with this being an event plane or perhaps just being a skin for the American F-100, but they don't need this.

[Shepard_FR 545]

I'm going to say no on this.

 

French is already enough of a "USA 2.0" tree. France has plenty of supersonic designs for Tier 6, adding foreign copypastas is useless.

[Functor 230]

I guess there is no good solution to the conflict of "planes built by country X" vs "planes used by country X".  This shows a certain division in the polls, though overall the opinion on my suggestion is affirmative so far.

 

I will only repeat that the French F.100D left relatively significant traces in the post-war history, see the links about Algeria above. This is probably not as legendary as Pokryshkine's Cobras, but still. 

[Atomeur 529]

I missed my vote. I voted yes but I want to vote no. :/

[Cephee 857]

I'd prefer to have the Super Mystère than another foreign plane.

[Functor 230]

And now we have the Super Mystère, yet the B2 variant. My offer for F.100D for the French still stands, I will be happy to see it alongside B4

[Trotrodor 2,670]

I would actually prefer this one against the f84K ...

[Functor 230]

F86K was added last patch; I will maintain this suggestion for the original reasons, even if SMB4 has been forwarded to devs and Mirage/SupEtendard/Jaguar are not unlikely in perhaps even the nearest future.

 

 

 

 

[AspandaIV 375]

Only as a premium or event vehicle since France has plenty of native designs and license built aircraft at Tier V & VI and the French TT is already saturated with copy-paste vehicles from the US