VT Tank (Twin Cannon Casemate TD)

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

Briefly: Implement the VT series of german prototype tanks.

 

The VT tank destroyers were a series of german casemate prototypes equipped with fixed mounted twin cannons. They were developed by Maschinenbau Kiel (MaK) during the 70s. The tank did not advance much from the prototype stage as the Germans had already developed the Leopard 2 and therefore didn't see the need for another conventional tank. The test programme ended proving that a twin-gunned turretless tank could be created with enough technical effort, but had drawbacks in both practical and tactical use.

 

The information and data on the VT tanks is limited and in some cases conflicting, fortunately many of the exemplars are available for public visit. Maybe Gaijin could go on a “fieldtrip” to study and record primary data on these machines (something they've done previously with other vehicles).

 

(VT 1-2)

 

History, Development and Details:

Spoiler

Since the early 70s various companies where working on the development of tank to replace the aging Leopard 1 of the West German Army. Originally the project was named Kampfpanzer 3 (KPz 3) and was temporarily a British-German joint project, until the UK withdrew because they wanted a turreted tank. MaK continued the development.

 

The VT project comprised of two prototype phases. The Versuchsträger (abbreviated: VT, meaning "test-beds" or "experiment carrier" and the Gefechtsfeldversuchträger (GVT, "battlefield test-beds"). MaK built the VT 1-1 on 1974 and the second prototype (VT 1-2) one year later on 1975. After this, five further prototypes were developed (GVT 1 through 5) from 1975-1976. The GVT variants where never armed. Instead, they were equipped only with laser fire simulators for further testing, but the project was canceled.

 

 

The VT tank was developed from a shortened version of the Kpz-70s chassis after the cancelation of that German-American joint tank project. There are notable visual differences between the different VT variants, mainly in the cannon placement and shape/details of the hull. This are probably slight modifications between prototypes but most likely all based upon the Kpz-70 hull and with similar details. The project was developed with the philosophy of heavy frontal armour casemate tank destroyer design of WWII. All prototypes had thick frontal armour but I could not find any values.

 

 

The VT 1-2 had the option to “boost” its engine power by 45% (from 1,500hp to 2,175hp) for a limited time to avoid damage to the engine. This is a significant increase that provided the tank with a much greater power to weight ratio and therefore acceleration for a limited time. I could not find any information if the other variants also had this functionality, the VT 1-1 probably did not, considering it had a different engine.

 

 

The VT tanks were designed to:

 

• Reach a higher weapon efficiency through short reaction times, higher hit probability and higher kill probability by using twin guns in a casemate structure.
• Be more mobile by using a stronger engine and a new suspension while saving weight through the absence of a turret.
• Have a higher level of survivability by reducing the crew compartment, using heavy frontal armour and a much lower silhouette.

 

The VT tanks were also developed with a very particular tactical method. The idea was that the tank would close in on the enemy on a zig-zag course ("Wedelfahrt", much like a skier wedeling downhill), which would make it much harder for the enemy to aim and accurately shoot at the tank. The enemy target would be locked into the aiming computer of the VT, the gunner would hold the trigger and the gun would fire automatically in the moment when the muzzle was on the target during the next change of direction. I could not find any formal account of the effectivity or accuracy of this method.

 

 

A comparison with the Leopard 2 was held, which proved that the VT tank wouldn't have any significant advantages over the Leopard 2. Although the engine of the Leopard 2 was inferior but could be replaced by the more powerful 12-cylinder engine of the VT 1-2 if required. The Leopard 2 also had a high first round hit probability, due to its advanced fire control system, which corresponds to or even surpass the calculated first round hit probability of the twin guns of the VT.

 

Due to the fixed-guns of these vehicles they relied on a particular method to aim and shoot at enemies. Similar to the Swedish Strv series of tanks horizontal aiming was achieved by traversing the entire hull and vertical aiming was achieved through the hydropneumatic suspension. The VT also had two electric engines who's purpose was "silent drive". I suppose these where not used to actually drive the tank but instead to be able to aim the gun (traverse hull and use hydropneumatic suspension) without having the engine turned on. Modern MBTs also implement electric auxiliary dries to use their systems without the engine on. This provides the benefit of not having noise coming from the engine (which could compromise position) and also decrease IR signature. If thermal sights ever come to war thunder this would be an interesting mechanic.

 

 

Specifications:

Spoiler

*if tank is variant not specified, the data corresponds to the VT 1-2

Length: 9.06 m

Width: 3.54 m

Height: 2.04m

Crew: 4 (driver, gunner, loader and commander) for the VT 1-1 and 3 (driver, gunner and commander) for the VT 1-2

Mass: 43.5 tonnes

Engine:  MTU MB 803 Ra-500 12 cylinder 4 turbochargers, 1,500hp (sustained) or 2,175hp (short time)

Auxiliary drives: 2 electric engines, 16kW - 144V each

Power/weight ratio: 34.5hp/t (sustained) or 50hp/t (short time)

Speed: 70kph (43mph) or 40kph (25mph) offroad.

Transmission: HSWL 354, 4 gears forward and 2 backward

Suspension: Hydropneumatic

Main Armament: x2 105mm (VT 1-1) or x2 120mm (VT 1-2)

Rate of fire: 10-12 rounds per minute *per gun

Elevation: from -10º to +15º (achieved by Hydropneumatic suspension), elevation speed 10º/s

Horizontal aiming: 360º (achieved by traversing the hull), horizontal targeting/traverse speed 60º/s

 

Variants:

Spoiler

VT 1-1:

Initial prototype was operated by a four man crew due to the lack of an autoloader. I do not know if the loader was tasked with reloading both cannons or if he was assisted by the commander. In the case the loader had to attend both cannons on his own it would have probably resulted in low rate of fire achieved by the tank. This version was outfitted with twin 105mm rifled guns. I could not find any info on the specific cannons used. Furthermore I could not find any data on the engine used by this version, I do know it has a different less powerful version than the VT 1-2 as sources state this.

 

VT 1-2:

Various improvements were made for this second prototype. Firstly, a autoloader was installed, this resulted in a crew reduction to three men. Each gun had its independent loading mechanism in the form of 6-round automatic loaders achieving 10-12 rounds per minute, it is not clear if this is per gun or a combined effect. This results in a 12 round capacity but I do not know if the tank could store more ammunition to resupply its automatic louders. Furthermore, the VT 1-2 was installed with 120mm smooth bore twin cannons. I could not find any info on the specific cannons used. Despite this some sources state they were capable of firing anti-tank missiles, giving them a longer range and more firepower. Finally this version was fitted with a stronger engine with 1500hp and a option to “boost” it to output what some sources claim is 2,175hp and others 2,400hp for a limited amount of time.

 

GVT: 

Gefechtsfeldversuchträger (GVT, "battlefield test-beds") These were developed to conduct further trials. The GVTs were not fitted with guns, instead they mounted two gun simulators. For combat simulations they used Talissi laser fire simulators. The propellant gases were created with a 20 mm cannon mounted on the roof.

 

New specialized game mechanics for the VT tanks:

Spoiler

1. Aiming for fixed gun tanks: The VT series are casemate tank destroyers with fixed gun mounts. This means hydropneumatic suspension (elevation) and hull traverse (horizontal targeting) had to be used to aim the guns. To shoot, the tank had to be static, with the exception of "Wedelfahrt" tactic (see next pint). Because of this a new mechanic has to be implemented for these vehicles. Something similar to world of tank’s travel & siege mode for swedish tank destroyers can be implemented. A player wood engage “travel” mode to move and then press the same button to engage “assault” mode to be able to aim and fire the guns. In the “assault” mode the cannons would follow the players cursor by automatically adjusting the hydropneumatic suspension (elevation) and hull traverse (horizontal targeting) to accurately aim at targets. This mechanic would also be helpful if at some point a Swedish tech tree is added with the Strv series of tank destroyers with fixed gun mounts which would operate with the same mechanic.
2. "Wedelfahrt" (specific for VT tanks): As mentioned previously, the VT tanks were developed with a very particular tactical method. The idea was that the tank would close in on the enemy on a zig-zag course ("Wedelfahrt", much like a skier wedeling downhill), which would make it much harder for the enemy to aim and accurately shoot at the tank. The enemy target would be locked into the aiming computer of the VT, the gunner would hold the trigger and the gun would fire automatically in the moment when the muzzle was on the target during the next change of direction. I don’t know exactly how this would be modeled in-game but it would be a very interesting aspect.
3. Engine “boost”/overcharge: As mentioned before, The VT 1-2 had the option to “boost” its engine power by 45% (from 1,500hp to 2,175hp) for a limited time to avoid damage to the engine. I don't know if this functionality is available in other similar vehicles or if it is common at all. Either way, it is an important and interesting aspect to implement with the VT tank. Maybe it could work similar to the “WEP” function on airplanes.

 

Sources:

http://www.whq-forum.de/cms/405.0.html 

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/military-vehicle-news/tank-profile-vt-tanks-german-twin-gunned-turretless-prototypes.html 

 

Thanks for your time, please make any suggestion or observations. There is not much info on these tanks, please comment anything you consider relevant for me to add and point out if I made any mistakes.

Edited May 8, 2019 by *gojuancamilo

[ItssLuBu 1,798]

Approved and open for discussion. 

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

A definitive +1 from me, the 105mm version and/or the GVT could be event/premium versions, while the 120mm could be the regular tech-tree version! You have my support!

[kamikazi21358 998]

I thought this was suggested already?  Or did someone suggest one version and you suggested the other?

 

Anyways, +1.  Might be an unpopular opinion, but I think the 105mm version should be premium, and the 120mm version after it as premium, like the callope to rocket M46.  Since these were prototypes.

[Milocat 4,854]

 

I'm not sorry.  

 

As for the suggestion, I'm dubious about any vehicle that has a completely non-traversable main gun.  I'll adopt a wait-and-see attitude on this one.

[elite2802 7]

https://www.baainbw.de/portal/a/baain/start/ueberun/dasbaain/wehrtec/exponat/kettenf/vt12/!ut/p/z1/hY5dC4IwGIX_kWdNLLtUKgrMJMPabuRFxzLWJjGkn9-ia-ncnQ8eDiRukJamQZMfnCUTvJDLNk-LS8HXnG-qLWeHeN8k5_zEjguOBtd_ExlqNqOMoe4VRGCs5hkxakjIB030jkb38kb5iLrvR4g72d6oynXZLwhDoyECdXzu0rJM9AfTh8ZM/dz/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/#Z7_B8LTL2922DPE20I3HV5RBO0M13 this should be a more official source with some additional infos. You can download a data sheet on the right side (Technische Daten PDF). Hope it helps a bit.

[Wolf_89 2,525]

Need this twin barrel shotgun tank

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

On 09/04/2019 at 09:11, elite2802 said:

https://www.baainbw.de/portal/a/baain/start/ueberun/dasbaain/wehrtec/exponat/kettenf/vt12/!ut/p/z1/hY5dC4IwGIX_kWdNLLtUKgrMJMPabuRFxzLWJjGkn9-ia-ncnQ8eDiRukJamQZMfnCUTvJDLNk-LS8HXnG-qLWeHeN8k5_zEjguOBtd_ExlqNqOMoe4VRGCs5hkxakjIB030jkb38kb5iLrvR4g72d6oynXZLwhDoyECdXzu0rJM9AfTh8ZM/dz/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/#Z7_B8LTL2922DPE20I3HV5RBO0M13 this should be a more official source with some additional infos. You can download a data sheet on the right side (Technische Daten PDF). Hope it helps a bit.

Great, I´ll have a look at it and add any relevant stuff. Can you help me with translation?

 

Also, I added a poll. Sorry It was not there before, seems I forgot.

[IOC_000 924]

It's completely reliant on FCS to work properly; so unless you want RB to become literally 3 button presses at top tier. No.

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

13 hours ago, IOC_000 said:

It's completely reliant on FCS to work properly; so unless you want RB to become literally 3 button presses at top tier. No.

Well, currently radar SPG are completely reliant on their fire control systems (FCS). In the case of implementing the VT tanks or Strv series, a special mechanic with an interesting gameplay experience  could be developed.

[eleks12 1,079]

This tank reminds me of C&C Generals 

 

[ForeverAloneRage 130]

Spoiler

 

[ALIEN109 1,321]

https://warthunder.com/en/news/6400-operation-shipyard-vt1-2-doppelrohr-kasemattpanzer-en

 

Atypical tank

The absence of traverse is really a huge drawback for this tank

 

EDIT : Well, actually the hull will be rotated with mouse input in a precise fashion so the no-traverse won't really be an issue

https://warthunder.ru/ru/news/14533/current/comment/116299#comments

Edited September 27, 2019 by ALIEN109

[TerikG2014 1,389]

well this is a thing....

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

I'm so happy, really looking forward to it in the upcoming event! 

[Ghostmaxi 873]

7 hours ago, Stuhlfleisch said:

I'm so happy, really looking forward to it in the upcoming event! 

Mee toooo , anything it take I will make it

[Valcour 1,141]

I don't play in the upper tiers but I think this is a perfect event tank.

 

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

17 hours ago, Stuhlfleisch said:

I'm so happy, really looking forward to it in the upcoming event!

I won't have time to play the event, really hope they put the other variant (VT 1-1) in the normal tech tree, other wise ill be very sad...

[Solarmod 1,203]

On 28/09/2019 at 13:21, *gojuancamilo said:

I won't have time to play the event, really hope they put the other variant (VT 1-1) in the normal tech tree, other wise ill be very sad...

Unfortunate to hear, mate :c

[leroyonly 4,310]

As the VT 1-2 has been implemented with Operation Shipyard,

 

Moved to Implemented Suggestions.