tanks/vehicles Cannone da 76/52 Semovente M18

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

Chinese Tree inspired me to create such suggestion.

I would like to suggest one already known vehicle to partially fill the gap in the Italian Ground Forces tech tree between 4.7 and 6.0.

This thing is called "Cannone da 76/52 Semovente M18", basically this is American M18 Gun Motor Carriage, but in the Italian Army(Esercito Italiano).

 

History

Spoiler

After the conflict some M18s were used again in combat in Korea and at the explicit request motivated by the power of the weapon and its anti-tank ammunition the Italian army in July 1952 had 130 from the US ARMY with which it armed as far as is known the 155 regiment of artillery of the 5 corps that with its units garnished the regions of Veneto and Friuli Venezia Giulia near the eastern border.

 

Characteristics:

Spoiler

Crew: 5

Weight: 17 t.

Engine: Continental: 9 cylinder R975 c.4.  (400 h.p.)

Power-to-weight ratio: 23.53 hp/ton

Maximum speed: 72 km/h

Armour type:

• Rolled homogeneous armour
• Cast homogeneous armour (Gun mantlet)

Armour	Front (Slope angle)	Sides	Rear	Roof
Hull	12.7 mm (39-64°) Front glacis  12.7 mm (23-52°) Lower glacis	12.7 mm (23-26°) Top  12.7 mm Bottom	12.7 mm (12°) Top  12.7 mm (36°) Bottom	8 mm
Turret	25.4 mm (15-26°) Turret front  19 mm + 25.4 mm (0-55°) Gun mantlet	12.7 mm (1-21°)	12.7 mm (7°)	N/A Open-top  8 mm Bustle and Front

Ammunition

Penetration statistics
Ammunition	Type of  warhead	Penetration in mm @ 0° Angle of Attack
		10m	100m	500m	1000m	1500m	2000m
M62 shell	APCBC	145	142	130	116	103	92
M42A1 shell	HE	8	8	7	7	7	7
M79 shot	AP	133	131	121	109	98	89
M93 shot	APCR	221	215	203	181	154	124

Shell details
Ammunition	Type of  warhead	Velocity  in m/s	Projectile Mass in kg	Fuse delay in m:	Fuse sensitivity in mm:	Explosive Mass in g (TNT equivalent):	Normalization At 30°  from horizontal:	Ricochet:
								0%	50%	100%
M62 shell	APCBC	792	7.0	1.2	20	63.7	+4°	48°	63°	71°
M42A1 shell	HE	800	5.84	0.1	0.5	390	+0°	79°	80°	81°
M79 shot	AP	792	6.8	N/A	N/A	N/A	-1°	47°	60°	65°
M93 shot	APCR	1,036	4.26	N/A	N/A	N/A	+1.5°	66°	70°	72°

 

 

 

Main differences:

Spoiler

According to sources: Italian M18 has R975 C.4 engine(from Sherman), which results in lower HP, lower weight and a little bit lower power-to-weight ratio.

          Italian M18             M18 in the American tree

 hp     400                         460                                         - Engine power

 t        17                           17.7                                        - Weight

 hp/t   23.53                      25.99                                      - power-to-weight ratio

So acceleration will be a little bit lower, but maximum speed is the same: 72 km/h.

Also

^ don't consider this info as it was caused by confusion with engine powers(The game uses gross power, while sources state net power)

there can be small differences in 3-d model, such as lack of side skirts and tools on sides, designation and Italian camo of course)

 

Sources:

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/M18_Hellcat

https://wiki.warthunder.com/M18_GMC

Le Armi e i mezzi dell'Esercito - della Marina e dell'Aeronautica

Spoiler

Armi e mezzi in dotazione all'esercito, 1955

Spoiler

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by _Condottiero_

[leroyonly 4,310]

Open for discussion. 

[Wolf_89 2,524]

Why not. Italy could always use more vehicles in mid tier area.

[Grimbergen95 362]

Thank you for this suggestion, is realy needed 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Grimbergen95

[Milocat 4,848]

This would definitely help the lackluster Italian mid-tiers.  +1.

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

02.06.1951

2 M18 during "Festa della Repubblica Italiana" Military Parade.

http://senato.archivioluce.it/senato-luce/scheda/foto/IL3000016358/12/Carri-armati-sfilano-lungo-il-viale-dei-Fori-Imperiali-diretti-verso-piazza-Venezia-tra-ali-di-folla.html?start=24

http://senato.archivioluce.it/senato-luce/scheda/foto/IL3000016414/12/Veduta-dallalto-del-Vittoriano-di-via-dei-Fori-Imperiali-durante-la-sfilata-militare-per-la-Festa-della-Repubblica.html?start=36

[Nahguav 419]

If they used them, then they deserve to be in as much as any other US vehicle they already have. It would be nice if there was some difference, even minor, to the one in the US tree though. Did it have some post war modification?

 

Would also help combined GER/ITA teams in mid tiers to combat the US M18s, although the Italians don't have much to back it up at that BR yet.

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

21 hours ago, Nahguav said:

If they used them, then they deserve to be in as much as any other US vehicle they already have. It would be nice if there was some difference, even minor, to the one in the US tree though. Did it have some post war modification?

There should be different engine, weight and slightly different 3-d model(lack of tools and sideskirts). Also designation, camo and soldiers uniform.

On 02/09/2019 at 19:58, _Condottiero_ said:

Main differences:

  Reveal hidden contents

According to sources: Italian M18 has R975 C.4 engine(from Sherman), which results in lower HP, lower weight and a little bit lower power-to-weight ratio.

          Italian M18             M18 in the American tree

 hp     400                         460                                         - Engine power

 t        17                           17.7                                        - Weight

 hp/t   23.53                      25.99                                      - power-to-weight ratio

So acceleration will be a little bit lower, but maximum speed is the same: 72 km/h.

Also there can be small differences in 3-d model, such as lack of side skirts and tools on sides, designation and Italian camo of course)

 

Don't know if there is smth else.

Edited September 11, 2019 by _Condottiero_

[selpulcher 89]

I would say that the engine difference is more than enough justification to have it in the game. Very good find! Hope to see it in the game soon!

[TM_06 225]

Would be a logical next step up from the Breda 501. +1

[FouManchou 2,463]

Hell no. Stop making suggestions to ruin SB

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

17 hours ago, FouManchou said:

Hell no. Stop making suggestions to ruin SB

It's a stupid problem really, I think it's easy to solve, setups shouldn't depend on nations, but on vehicles only. It's easy to make it impossible for similar vehicles to fight against each other.

[Rieskaruisku 506]

Even as avid Italian tanker, I would have to say no. It offers nothing but a reskin and a dull addition to the tech tree. Although being historically used or significant, the Italian M18 falls into the same dump as the French Panther in my opinion. I want an Italian vehicle. No matter how clumsy or unconventional it is.

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

1 hour ago, Rieskaruisku said:

Even as avid Italian tanker, I would have to say no. It offers nothing but a reskin and a dull addition to the tech tree. Although being historically used or significant, the Italian M18 falls into the same dump as the French Panther in my opinion. I want an Italian vehicle. No matter how clumsy or unconventional it is.

Well it's not Gaijin's fault Italy lost World War 2 and was prohibited from making its own IFVs so they make do with what they got. The M18 has already been exported to the Chinese tree, I don't see why adding it to Italy would be a problem unless you have other plausible ideas that neither myself nor the developers have heard of yet. 

[SvenTheFree 1,745]

Italy really needs this vehicle, at is br range Italy as lack  of vehicles +1.

[MadMax_ITA_ 789]

16 hours ago, Private_Wolk said:

Well it's not Gaijin's fault Italy lost World War 2 and was prohibited from making its own IFVs so they make do with what they got. The M18 has already been exported to the Chinese tree, I don't see why adding it to Italy would be a problem unless you have other plausible ideas that neither myself nor the developers have heard of yet. 

Because we don't want a gaijin clone wars edition. It is already boring playing against hordes of Shermans an t34 when you are not supposed to fight them and at the same time this would worsen the situation. There's no need to add anything at that br. It's an hole, an historical hole? Leave it as it is like Japan has no real fighter after 6.0 until jets leaving a bit hole, it's normal and things should not be forced 

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

23 minutes ago, MadMax_ITA_ said:

Because we don't want a gaijin clone wars edition. It is already boring playing against hordes of Shermans an t34 when you are not supposed to fight them and at the same time this would worsen the situation. There's no need to add anything at that br. It's an hole, an historical hole? Leave it as it is like Japan has no real fighter after 6.0 until jets leaving a bit hole, it's normal and things should not be forced 

What is the problem to separate Italy from Germany in MM after 4.3?

[MadMax_ITA_ 789]

50 minutes ago, _Condottiero_ said:

What is the problem to separate Italy from Germany in MM after 4.3?

It's already a thing but at least the enemy team doesn't have to face 3 nations with each it's own hellcat like now is in game with Shermans. It's to avoid it being redundant, would you like to see a match where it lists Japan USA Italy France and see just tons and tons of Shermans, it becomes almost like and arcade shooter game badly designed where you face the same 4 enemies with a retextured skin

[Ruthless95 1,177]

yea just found this thing definitely needed, specially that not only 3d model is different it's engine is different as well. hopefully it will have nice camos too

[Matt_82 1,096]

I hate mixed battles in RB. I dislike c&p vehicles as they achieve mixed battles through the back door.

[Solarmod 1,203]

10 hours ago, Matt_82 said:

I hate mixed battles in RB. I dislike c&p vehicles as they achieve mixed battles through the back door.

Italy has little to nothing at the rank, I really think it should fit in the tree, even as a premium.

[Matt_82 1,096]

8 minutes ago, Solarmod said:

Italy has little to nothing at the rank

 

So what they'll get is one M18 at 5.3 and then nothing else to go with it.  A Sherman at 4.7 and and couple of turretless tank destroyers at 4.3.

 

The result will be that Italian M18s will be spammed until they get killed.  Which if the American versions are anything to go by, will be fairly quickly.  At which point the players will likely quit out the match because trying to bring out some back up will be pointless as they'll be hopelessly outmatched.  XM-1 syndrome all over again.

 

One of the reasons that lower tiers are better than higher tiers is that players keep respawning as the repair costs aren't prohibitive.  You get longer matches that can go back and forth.  That rarely happens at higher tiers.  People often just leave once their main tank has been destroyed so games end quickly and it's crap.  This would be bringing that aspect of high tier down to mid tiers.  

 

So no thanks.  I don't care that they had them irl.  I don't care that people want every vehicle in the world added.  I don't care that Italy has nothing else to go there.  I do care about the impact on the game (specifically GFRB).  And looking at it, I believe it would be negative.  One vehicle line ups are not a benefit to the game, nation or players.

[Solarmod 1,203]

2 hours ago, Matt_82 said:

 

So what they'll get is one M18 at 5.3 and then nothing else to go with it.  A Sherman at 4.7 and and couple of turretless tank destroyers at 4.3.

 

The result will be that Italian M18s will be spammed until they get killed.  Which if the American versions are anything to go by, will be fairly quickly.  At which point the players will likely quit out the match because trying to bring out some back up will be pointless as they'll be hopelessly outmatched.  XM-1 syndrome all over again.

 

One of the reasons that lower tiers are better than higher tiers is that players keep respawning as the repair costs aren't prohibitive.  You get longer matches that can go back and forth.  That rarely happens at higher tiers.  People often just leave once their main tank has been destroyed so games end quickly and it's crap.  This would be bringing that aspect of high tier down to mid tiers.  

 

So no thanks.  I don't care that they had them irl.  I don't care that people want every vehicle in the world added.  I don't care that Italy has nothing else to go there.  I do care about the impact on the game (specifically GFRB).  And looking at it, I believe it would be negative.  One vehicle line ups are not a benefit to the game, nation or players.

Pardon me then, I'm coming from a primarily arcade player's POV. I don't play realistic as much as I (Honestly) should. the M18 is 4.7 for players like myself, you see 

[Охраняет-Камни 6,650]

2 hours ago, Matt_82 said:

 

So what they'll get is one M18 at 5.3 and then nothing else to go with it.  A Sherman at 4.7 and and couple of turretless tank destroyers at 4.3.

 

The result will be that Italian M18s will be spammed until they get killed.  Which if the American versions are anything to go by, will be fairly quickly.  At which point the players will likely quit out the match because trying to bring out some back up will be pointless as they'll be hopelessly outmatched.  XM-1 syndrome all over again.

 

One of the reasons that lower tiers are better than higher tiers is that players keep respawning as the repair costs aren't prohibitive.  You get longer matches that can go back and forth.  That rarely happens at higher tiers.  People often just leave once their main tank has been destroyed so games end quickly and it's crap.  This would be bringing that aspect of high tier down to mid tiers.  

 

So no thanks.  I don't care that they had them irl.  I don't care that people want every vehicle in the world added.  I don't care that Italy has nothing else to go there.  I do care about the impact on the game (specifically GFRB).  And looking at it, I believe it would be negative.  One vehicle line ups are not a benefit to the game, nation or players.

That is why this vehicle should be added with smth else, there are actually some candidates for these brs 4.7-5.3 apart from m18: OF-24(with 76 mm Scorpion turret), M4A4 76/52(Italian M4A4 refitted with 76 mm cannon), M4A3 76(W). Also R3 T20 can easily go upper(Maybe smth else like Priest refitted with 105/34, but I don't know much about it).

M18 will be a good backup for people who are researching 6.0-6.3 vehicles, instead of bringing tipo IC into the battle.

And don't miss the fact that at 5.3 Italy has Re.2005, which is an awesome CAS.

The only problem I see is MM, but it is easy to solve, because Italy doesn't influence Germany so much, that is why we can remove Italy+Germany rule(at 4.3 and higher) and make another rule, to pair Italy with USA most of the time(but without lock).

 

[Grimbergen95 362]

13 hours ago, Matt_82 said:

 

So what they'll get is one M18 at 5.3 and then nothing else to go with it.  A Sherman at 4.7 and and couple of turretless tank destroyers at 4.3.

 

The result will be that Italian M18s will be spammed until they get killed.  Which if the American versions are anything to go by, will be fairly quickly.  At which point the players will likely quit out the match because trying to bring out some back up will be pointless as they'll be hopelessly outmatched.  XM-1 syndrome all over again.

 

One of the reasons that lower tiers are better than higher tiers is that players keep respawning as the repair costs aren't prohibitive.  You get longer matches that can go back and forth.  That rarely happens at higher tiers.  People often just leave once their main tank has been destroyed so games end quickly and it's crap.  This would be bringing that aspect of high tier down to mid tiers.  

 

So no thanks.  I don't care that they had them irl.  I don't care that people want every vehicle in the world added.  I don't care that Italy has nothing else to go there.  I do care about the impact on the game (specifically GFRB).  And looking at it, I believe it would be negative.  One vehicle line ups are not a benefit to the game, nation or players.

The M36B1 should be at 5.7, it is a 6.3 only because there's nothing that can be paired with a lower BR, the M18 can solve the problem

Edited November 7, 2019 by Grimbergen95