Infrared Blocking Smoke (VIRSS / Multispectral Smoke)

[HyJetV 3,063]

So,

With the further advent of Helicopters with powerful ATGMs in top tier GF RB & SB, I've been digging into ways in which this can be countered, the same way modern tanks deal with IR and thermal imagery.

 

As we know, the current smoke grenades in game, do obstruct thermal imagery, but thats it. ATGMs can still rain down on you as you repair or hide in smoke.

 

My suggestion here, is to add VIRSS/Multispectral Smoke Grenades as a modification for top tier tanks.

 

Whats the benefit?

VIRSS/MSS will not only provide a visual smoke screen, it will also block all thermal and IR Imagery, and most importantly,  any SACLOS or Laser Guided ATGMs will be unable to hit your tank for the duration the smoke is deployed. Giving you valuable time to repair without having helicopters spam your smoke 'bubble'.

 

How does it achieve this?
VIRSS/MSS Uses a combination of metallic particles, glass fibres, carbon fibres, and burning phosphorus to block out the IR Spectrum. As mentioned, this blocks out battlefield radars, Thermal & IR Imagery & tracking. Any ATGM flying towards a vehicle that has deployed said smoke system, will be unable to continue tracking the target, and should, in theory, go into fail safe mode and fly skyward and self destruct or become inert.

 

Quoting Rheinmetall Defense (ROSY Is their branded VIRSS/MSS)
 

Quote

Due to its integrated IR jamming and decoying capabilities, Rosy_L effectively counters all TV-, EO-, IR-, IIR-, laser- and SACLOS-guided weapons.

 

The composition of these grenades vary from nation to nation, wikipedia outlines the generic materials used in their composition.

 

Quote

The proliferation of thermal imaging FLIR systems on the battlefields necessitates the use of obscurant smokes that are effectively opaque in the infrared part of electromagnetic spectrum. This kind of obscurant smoke is sometimes referred to as "Visual and Infrared Screening Smoke" (VIRSS).^[3] To achieve this, the particle size and composition of the smokes has to be adjusted. One of the approaches is using an aerosol of burning red phosphorus particles and aluminium-coated glass fibers; the infrared emissions of such smoke curtains hides the weaker emissions of colder objects behind it, but the effect is only short-lived. Carbon (most often graphite) particles present in the smokes can also serve to absorb the beams of laser designators. Yet another possibility is a water fog sprayed around the vehicle; the presence of large droplets absorbs in infrared band and additionally serves as a countermeasure against radars in 94 GHz band. Other materials used as visible/infrared obscurants are micropulverized flakes of brass or graphite, particles of titanium dioxide, or terephthalic acid.

Older systems for production of infrared smoke work as generators of aerosol of dust with controlled particle size. Most contemporary vehicle-mounted systems use this approach. However, the aerosol stays airborne only for a short time.

The brass particles used in some infrared smoke grenades are typically composed of 70% copper and 30% zinc. They are shaped as irregular flakes with a diameter of about 1.7 µm and thickness of 80–320 nm.^[4]

Some experimental obscurants work in both infrared and millimeter wave region. They include carbon fibers, metal coated fibers or glass particles, metal microwires, particles of iron and of suitable polymers.^[5]

 

A Video of Rheinmetall's ROSY in operation, you can clearly see the burning phosphorus and metallic particles in this vid.

 

A German Leopard 2A(?) Discharching DM55 MultiSpectral Smoke

 

A Russian T90 Deploying its 'Shotra' VIRSS

 

Challenger 2 discharging MSS
 

 

So, VIRSS/MSS, Should this be added? 

 

 

Other sources;

 

https://defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/2010/01/multispectral-smoke-and-next-step-afv.html

https://www.rheinmetall-defence.com/en/rheinmetall_defence/systems_and_products/protection_systems/protection_systems_land/index.php

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2019 by HyJetV

[Princess_Pinch 5,625]

Open for discussion. 

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

id rather not have smoke that effectively blocks a bunch of missiles.
and wouldn't ATGMs like the AGM-22 simply not care about this smoke since they technically are MCLOS but function like SACLOS in game(i presume Gaijin went with the "the co-pilot/gunner just guides it to its target" or something like that) or TOW missiles since they are wire guided right?

Edited September 25, 2019 by *TheLastYouSee__

[kamikazi21358 998]

+1

 

Also I think currently smoke is completely opaque to thermal and stuff as well, so more to differentiate the two would be suggested?

 

 

Also both more conventional smoke and IR blocking smoke should he options on tanks that can use both.

 

For example, on a T-80 suggestion that I did, I included the different types of smoke it could fire if it became relevant,

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/448336-the-first-t-80-t-80-1976-and-1979-version/

for the 902V Tucha Smoke Grenade System.

Quote

Smoke grenades loaded

 

3D6: standard smoke grenade, slow burning that creates a smoke screen from the ground up.  Takes 7-12 seconds to make a complete smoke screen, and can last up to 2 minutes depending on environmental conditions.

3D17: capable of blocking IR, detonates only 1 second after firing, completing a full smoke screen in only 3 seconds.  Only last ~20 seconds however.  Detonates 50m away from the tank.

 

So each type has it’s own advantages and disadvantages.

[HyJetV 3,063]

10 hours ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

id rather not have smoke that effectively blocks a bunch of missiles.
and wouldn't ATGMs like the AGM-22 simply not care about this smoke since they technically are MCLOS but function like SACLOS in game(i presume Gaijin went with the "the co-pilot/gunner just guides it to its target" or something like that) or TOW missiles since they are wire guided right?

wire guided ATGMs will be unaffected by the VIRSS grenades.

its mainly to combat the ones that are essentially point and click, but would have been guided by IR or Laser designation. 
 

and why would you not want this? It will only work the same way smoke in game currently does..each tank had a different amount of grenades and only has a limited number of uses, it just gives them an advantage to not be spammed with ATGMs.

 

ESS would remain unchanged, as that’s just a visual smoke screen.

9 hours ago, kamikazi21358 said:

+1

 

Also I think currently smoke is completely opaque to thermal and stuff as well, so more to differentiate the two would be suggested?

 

 

Also both more conventional smoke and IR blocking smoke should he options on tanks that can use both.

 

For example, on a T-80 suggestion that I did, I included the different types of smoke it could fire if it became relevant,

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/448336-the-first-t-80-t-80-1976-and-1979-version/

for the 902V Tucha Smoke Grenade System.

So each type has it’s own advantages and disadvantages.

I agree it should be an option to take either. But not simultaneously.

 

itd be good if visual smoke grenades were standard on top tier tanks. And VIRSS/MSS Grenades were the researchable upgrade. 

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

55 minutes ago, HyJetV said:

and why would you not want this? It will only work the same way smoke in game currently does..each tank had a different amount of grenades and only has a limited number of uses, it just gives them an advantage to not be spammed with ATGMs.

it would render certain missiles completely useless because of a bit of smoke, missiles such as the ADATS and other SAMs.
i would not want this simply because it is a massive problem for only a few particular vehicles(most of which are not helicopters) and leaves the rest more or less unaffected.
 

[HyJetV 3,063]

18 minutes ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

it would render certain missiles completely useless because of a bit of smoke, missiles such as the ADATS and other SAMs.
i would not want this simply because it is a massive problem for only a few particular vehicles(most of which are not helicopters) and leaves the rest more or less unaffected.
 

 

It wouldnt make them entirely useless.

 

1) Tanks that haven't unlocked it, wont have it.

2) Limited discharges. For example, the chally2 has 10 grenades, It launches them in two burts of 5 grenades, then that it, unless you go rearm smoke in a cap point. If the player doesnt rearm, then its now vulnerable to ATGMs.

3) Thats what it's like IRL. It was designed to negate the affects of ATGMs.

 

Top tier tanks is currently awash with people spawning helis, raining ATGMs on you from match start, you pop smoke and try to repair...they continue to hit your smoke bubble with ATGMs and kill you.

My suggestion would give you a fair chance at surviving when repairing.

Edited September 26, 2019 by HyJetV

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

5 hours ago, HyJetV said:

 

It wouldnt make them entirely useless.

 

1) Tanks that haven't unlocked it, wont have it.

2) Limited discharges. For example, the chally2 has 10 grenades, It launches them in two burts of 5 grenades, then that it, unless you go rearm smoke in a cap point. If the player doesnt rearm, then its now vulnerable to ATGMs.

3) Thats what it's like IRL. It was designed to negate the affects of ATGMs.

 

Top tier tanks is currently awash with people spawning helis, raining ATGMs on you from match start, you pop smoke and try to repair...they continue to hit your smoke bubble with ATGMs and kill you.

My suggestion would give you a fair chance at surviving when repairing.

i don't think that is the case. it will not affect TOWs or AGM-22s i am not sure about russian, french, german and British missiles and how they are guided but it could cause some balance issues with the US being able to engage regardless of what smoke you have and other nations not having that capability. and it would also mean a bunch of ATGM carriers could get shafted by this being unable to fire because someone popped smoke. and whilst i understand it was designed for that purpose in real life i don't think it would be very fun in game.

[HyJetV 3,063]

2 hours ago, *TheLastYouSee__ said:

and it would also mean a bunch of ATGM carriers could get shafted by this being unable to fire because someone popped smoke. and whilst i understand it was designed for that purpose in real life i don't think it would be very fun in game.

 

Thats your opinion. I respect that.
My opinion is, being ATGM'd by helis, and then being spammed by ATGM's whilst repairing, after popping smoke, is not very fun, and having some form of countermeasure to give you a chance, will make top tier tanks, a bit more enjoyable.

 

There are so many players out there who are fed up with spawning in at the start of matches, to be wiped out in the opening seconds by helicopters, who have the ability to spawn with ATGMs right of the mark.
Countermeasures are needed. VIRSS/MSS Gives a player a chance at shielding themselves from Helicopters for the few seconds in which the smoke is active.

Just like current smoke, it will fade after a short time, its not going to be a curtain that is there for minutes on end. 

[TheLastYouSee__@psn 281]

5 hours ago, HyJetV said:

 

Thats your opinion. I respect that.
My opinion is, being ATGM'd by helis, and then being spammed by ATGM's whilst repairing, after popping smoke, is not very fun, and having some form of countermeasure to give you a chance, will make top tier tanks, a bit more enjoyable.

 

There are so many players out there who are fed up with spawning in at the start of matches, to be wiped out in the opening seconds by helicopters, who have the ability to spawn with ATGMs right of the mark.
Countermeasures are needed. VIRSS/MSS Gives a player a chance at shielding themselves from Helicopters for the few seconds in which the smoke is active.

Just like current smoke, it will fade after a short time, its not going to be a curtain that is there for minutes on end. 

that is fair enough but i don't think this will stop people that abuse helicopters from abusing them. at best it will give everyone but the Americans a slight handicap since the Americans can just fall back on TOW missiles.

[ALIEN109 1,321]

Isn't it implemented now ?

[Baske_74 465]

Wouldn't mind the choice between regular longer lasting smoke and the shorter lasting but IR, thermal and laser blocking smoke.

it's nice to see a progression in countermeasures as the technical level goes up through the BR's.

Early image intensifiers and optical guided missiles can be avoided with regular smoke.

later Thermal and laser guided munitions should also have a countermeasure, which also should work against the older NVD and Optical tracked ATGM's, you can't hit what you can't see.

Ground forces already received the LWS system on some of the toptier vehicles so they can detect when they are targeted, now they just need to add the appropriate countermeasure towards the already detected threat.

[leroyonly 4,310]

As Infrared Blocking smoke previously has been implemented,

 

Moved to Implemented Suggestions.