M3 Stuart/Honey variant as a British Tier 2 LT

[Bruce_R1 2,118]

(resubmitted with additional info) So one of the larger problems with British ground low-end tree is the lack of a scout vehicle before the Warrior. This has been proposed to be addressed by introducing scouting to Tier 1, which would make play at that tier very difficult, and or letting Cromwell medium tanks scout (which isn't very historical and would raise the other question why all the other medium tanks couldn't). The reason for this is because the primary British tracked scout vehicle of WW2 is already in the game but in the US and Chinese trees: the M3. Adding it to British tier 2 options would solve a problem with the tree, take less effort than a new vehicle, and be more historical. Indeed, you already have it in game as a US premium (the 5th Canadian Armoured Division M5 (actually an M3A3, which was basically identical)). So, let's talk about the "Honey."

 

The British, needing more tanks in the desert, requested Lend Lease of US M3s starting in early 1941. Officially named Stuart by the British, their users called them Honeys, due to their handling and reliability. The British deleted the fixed BMGs on their first M3s and added smoke dischargers. They were first used (as proper cruiser tanks) by 4th Armoured Brigade in Operation Crusader, but they were soon superseded in that role, as their 37 mm gun wasn't significantly superior to the British tank 2 pounder guns that were already insufficient to defeat German armour.

 

In early 1942, they were re-roled, with several British regiments equipped with Grants each getting a squadron of Stuarts for screening and reconnaissance. At 2nd Alamein, Stuarts were used in this way by the 4th and 22nd Armoured Brigades, the 2nd NZ Cavalry, and the 9th Australian Cavalry.

 

In the Pacific, Stuart IIIs (M3A1s, which started to replace the M3 in late 1942) continued in the primary combat role, as they were could hold their own with Japanese designs. 7th Indian Light and 45th Indian Cavalry fought with them in that role in Burma.

 

The Stuart V was the US M3A3, functionally identical to the M5A1, but only built for British use. In late 1943, all Commonwealth armoured regiments and tank battalions got a recce troop of 11 or 12 Stuarts, a mix of M3A3s  (making it the most common model in terms of numbers) and some M3A1s. By mid-1944 this was also extended to the Cromwell-equipped armoured recce regiments.

 

Sources:

George Bradford, "American Armoured Fighting Vehicles" (Stackpole, 2007) (2x screenshots attached below)

Harold Skaarup's ""Ironsides": Canadian Armoured Fighting Vehicle Museums and Monuments", (iUniverse, 2011) pp. 30-32: https://books.google.ca/books?id=LcidHt4zzDgC&lpg=PA2&pg=PA30#v=onepage&q&f=false.

David Fletcher and Steven Zaloga, "British Battle Tanks: American-made World War II Tanks" (Bloomsbury, 2018), which has a full chapter on the British Stuarts (pp. 8-35). Ebook link: https://books.google.ca/books?id=6gxmDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA8&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

 

Attached are a selection of the many many Stuart photos, showing their use by British and Commonwealth personnel, in the UK Imperial War Museum online collection. (Note the white star on some doesn't mean they were American, as you can tell by the crew uniforms and other details: that was a universal aerial recognition symbol on British and US tanks in Normandy.)

 

Anyway, for your consideration. Reusing the existing M5A1 as a Brit M3A3 Stuart/Honey would solve the Brit scouting issue, make the British WW2 line significantly more historical.

 

David Fletcher and Steven Zaloga, "British Battle

 

[leroyonly 4,311]

Open for discussion. 

[SneakySausage 786]

I would like a m2a4,m3 or m5 light tank for the UK.

Britan and commonwealth forces used all. It's worth mentioning a canadian stuart tank is already a premium for the USA.

Personally I want a M5 varient most.

 

I dont think the british used the name honey and it's an americanism.

[TerikG2014 1,389]

12 minutes ago, SneakySausage said:

I dont think the british used the name honey and it's an americanism

No the British did call it honey I believe it came about in North Africa as a sort of joke about how much of a smoother ride it was compared to other british vehicles.

[Tasty95215 2,099]

So basically just the Stuart with smoke grenades? Sure, why not. I'm generally not really the biggest fan of foreign tanks in other nations' tech trees but the UK and US fight together all the time anyways.

 

Just to be clear, were smoke grenade launchers only added onto the first M3's they got, or were they added onto all of them? I can't really tell from the pictures.

[SneakySausage 786]

3 hours ago, TerikG2014 said:

No the British did call it honey I believe it came about in North Africa as a sort of joke about how much of a smoother ride it was compared to other british vehicles.

No, I dont think so. That's what people say but some sources specifically state otherwise, that it was unlikely used and have no idea where that name came from.

Like the wolverine name for the m10.

 

I recall In one of the cheiftans videos (myths of American armour?) That he says the british tank museum (?) Says "why would we call it honey to us that is a sticky seeet substance. That's an americanism so if we did use it we got it from the Americans" or something to that affect.

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by SneakySausage

[Solarmod 1,204]

+1 from me, though I would add a poll to see if people don’t want it in the tree, but I do. It was used in mass. 

[TerikG2014 1,389]

11 hours ago, SneakySausage said:

No, I dont think so. That's what people say but some sources specifically state otherwise, that it was unlikely used and have no idea where that name came from.

Like the wolverine name for the m10.

 

I recall In one of the cheiftans videos (myths of American armour?) That he says the british tank museum (?) Says "why would we call it honey to us that is a sticky seeet substance. That's an americanism so if we did use it we got it from the Americans" or something to that affect.

 

It seems to be rather confused some sources say one thing some sources say the other but neither one can say for definite but the British did use the nickname Honey

[Peasant_wb 331]

At this point we should just merge the UK and US tech trees and be done with it, this will save the time used on making these threads.

[Milocat 4,857]

I'd like to see this added.  +1.

[SneakySausage 786]

12 hours ago, TerikG2014 said:

It seems to be rather confused some sources say one thing some sources say the other but neither one can say for definite but the British did use the nickname Honey

Not willing to argue more than what iv said.

[eleks12 1,079]

Would be Nice Gold/Warbound tanks +1

[Bruce_R1 2,118]

On 01/11/2019 at 01:53, Tasty95215 said:

So basically just the Stuart with smoke grenades? Sure, why not. I'm generally not really the biggest fan of foreign tanks in other nations' tech trees but the UK and US fight together all the time anyways.

 

Just to be clear, were smoke grenade launchers only added onto the first M3's they got, or were they added onto all of them? I can't really tell from the pictures.

Ref Tasty's point, the Chinese M3A3 in-game model that could be repurposed for this actually has (non-functional) smoke dischargers. It's a tier 1 2.3 even though it's the same BR as the M5A1. Only difference between the two models (Chinese M3A3 and US M5A1) in game therefore is the scouting, the SD, and the tier.

 

The sources I cited above indicated all British models of Stuart from the M3 (Stuart I) on got smoke dischargers fitted.

 

The problem with the now largely discontinued Canadian M5A1 premium in the US tree was that there were very few actual British M5A1s (in British nomenclature, the Stuart VI) relative to the more common and functionally equivalent M3A3 (Stuart V).

Edited November 2, 2019 by Bruce_R1

[Solarmod 1,204]

+1 from me!

[Jarms 1,558]

With the M3A3 Stuart now in the Chinese tech tree Gaijin could just copy-paste it into the UK tree as a researchable vehicle.

 

Hopefully we can get more M3 Stuart variants into the UK (and US) tree one day as well.

[diadochi 28]

Britain needs at least one Stuart variant

[J26Lennox26@psn 189]

On 22/11/2019 at 02:53, diadochi said:

Britain needs at least one Stuart variant

 

Absolutely! 

[magazine2 7,957]

On 22/11/2019 at 07:53, diadochi said:

Britain needs at least one Stuart variant

 

On 10/05/2020 at 10:08, *J26Lennox26 said:

 

Absolutely! 

 

Two tier 1 British Stuarts on dev server 

[Solarmod 1,204]

2 hours ago, magazine2 said:

 

 

Two tier 1 British Stuarts on dev server 

I'm excited  

[J26Lennox26@psn 189]

3 hours ago, magazine2 said:

Two tier 1 British Stuarts on dev server

 

Yes, absolutely nice. Thanks to the devs for adding those tanks to britain tree!

[leroyonly 4,311]

As the Stuart I & Stuart III have been added as per update 1.99 Starfighters,

 

Moved to Implemented Suggestions.