MN Destroyer class "Mogador"

[SpatialX 135]

The Contre-Torpilleur (big destroyer) Volta

1. History of the Ship class

Spoiler

A. Originally just prototype for a future bigger class, the class "Mogador" is a class composed of two ship, the "Mogador" started in 1937 and finish in april 1939 and the "Volta" started in 1936 and finish in march 1939. This class of ship create in the future the base for a future class of ship, "project T47".

The main reason to the existence of this class was to find a ship for escort and reacon to the "Dunkerque" class. The destroyer should be capable of a great speed (to find other ships) good range (to follow other big ship with high range) and big gun (was mean to encounter big ships like cruiser or battleships).

 

B. In the facts, the ship was the perfect destroyer, numerous torpeado, big guns and high speed. But in reality, the ship has huge issue. He reach the really good speed of 43 knots in test and can still reach the speed of 34 knots in bad sea (level 4) but his pale where pretty bad, creating cavitation at high speed. The rudder was really small meaning of a poor maneuverability (battleship class "Dunkerque" where more maneuverable than "Mogador"). Turrets where heavy and not enough alimented, meaning in poor stability and turn rate of guns. Finally, the way that torpeado where placed was also a source of instability.

 

C. At the begin of the World War Two, Mogador and Volta join the "Force de Raid" the main French fleet in the Mediteranean sea, with their "Masters", the Dunkerque and the Strasbourg. During the end of the year 1939, the two ships where trying to find and sink the Deutschland, without any succes. Early 1940, the "Force de Raid" return to Brest for repair. Between April and June 1940, the fleet has made serval voyages between Brest and Mer el Kebir, chasing a ghost fleets it couldn't find. When Italy declared war in June, the "Force de Raid" came back to the Mediteranean sea to sink Italian ship that's never came. The Armistice signed, the "Force de Raid" stoped her activity and dock to Mer el Kebir waiting for orders. But the 3rd July, the Royal Navy launch the Operations "Catapults" trying to sink french ships. The Volta with the order to protect and escort the Strasbourg, flee sucefully the combat. The Mogador wasn't that luckly. Stay at dock, the ship is hit by a shell of 380mm in the Anti-sub grenades storages. The explosion was huge, destroying all the rear of the ship. Luckly the ship didn't sink and after small repair has been transfered to Toulon, joining the Volta and the rest of the fleet. Until 1942 both ships rest to Toulon. The Mogador was repaired, the rear turret unmounted while the Volta was requipped (new AA guns, ASDIC). Their story finish sadly the 27th november 1942, Germany invade the "Free" zone, so the two destroyer scuttle to not be captured. Italians will try to repair them, without succes because of allied bombing.

2. Specifications :

Spoiler

WARNING : The ship had IRL multiple issue like for turret, rudder or else. See them in "1.History of the ship class" in the B. section

Original auxilary armament :

Spoiler

Anti-aircraft gun : 2 simple gun of 37mm gun modèle 1925.            2 double gun of 13,5mm Hotchkiss of 1929

Others : 32 Anti-sub grenades            40 mines

Auxilary armament in 1942 :

Spoiler

Anti-aircraft gun : 2 double gun of 37mm gun modèle 1925.      2 double gun of 13,5mm Hotchkiss of 1929

Others : 32 Anti-sub grenades            40 mines

Reacon : ASDIC (Anti-Submarine Detection Investigatoin Committee)

Specifications of the gun :

Spoiler

4 turrets with 2 gun of 138mm modèle 1934 (two at the front, two at the stern).

They are 180 shells per gun for a total of 1 440 shells.

Guns have a max rate of fire of 12 shells per minutes, 7 shells per minutes in normal use.

Angle of fire are to +35° to -10° for a maximum range of 20 000 meters.

The gun as two ammunitions : HE (OEA Mod.1932) with a weight of 40,6 kg and a speed of 840 meters per second.

AP (OPF Mod.1924) with a weight of 40,6 kg and a speed of 800 meters per second. Using the Jacob de marre calulation, the shell should be able to pen 254 mm.

Specifications of the Torpeado Armament :

Spoiler

12 torpeado launcher. All torpeado launcher are on the sides. 2 launcher with " tube at the middle and 2 launcher with 2 tube at the stern.

The torpeado used was a torpeado of 550mm mod.1925 proppeled with alchool. The torpeado could reach 9 000 meters at a speed of 39 knots (max speed unknow)

Crew : 264                    Lenght : 137,5 meters

Beam : 12,5 meters      Draught : 4,74 meters

Max charges : 4 429 t  Power : 92 000 Horse power

Motor : 2 steam turbines 3 boiler

Speed : Max : 43 knots (79,6 km/h, 49,4 Miles/h) Cruise speed : 39 knots (72,2 km/h, 44,8 Miles/h) Most of the time : 34 knots (62,9 km/h, 39,1 Miles/h)

3. Photos :

Spoiler

Mogador class

Volta

Mogador

Mogador class

Volta

Mogador

Placement of the armament (FIRST ONE ONLY)

Volta

The Mogador after the explosion of his rear

Scuttle of the Volta

Aerial photo of the scuttle of the navy. We can see both Mogador and Volta (the most below and the 4th one deom above)

4. Sources :

Spoiler

http://www.fr.naval-encyclopedia.com/2e-guerre-mondiale/marine-francaise2egm.php

https://www.secondeguerre.net/articles/navires/fr/de/na_classemogador.html

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mogador_(contre-torpilleur)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classe_Mogador

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volta_(contre-torpilleur)

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_138_mm_modèle_1929

http://forummarine.forumactif.com/t9227-contre-torpilleurs-classe-aigle-france-termine

http://atf40.1fr1.net/t4188-les-contre-torpilleurs-du-type-mogador

thx to have take the time to read me

[ItssLuBu 1,803]

Approved and open for discussion. 

[Milocat 4,857]

+1, would be a nice heavy destroyer to have in the French tree.

[Arghail 1,220]

Good suggestion. However, your emphasis on the technical problems of the ships is a bit too much in my opinion. The ships in war thunder are supposed to be the ideal version of themselves. The historical performances should speak by themselves, it's not necessary to point them out. Certainly, poor turret traverse and rudder speed will impact the gameplay, but that's what the stats are for, after all. The idea behind the suggestion is for people to want the ship in the game in the end, right. Anyway. I voted yes, I think 4.7 should be it.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Arghail

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

Poor Moga. The Frenchies acquitted themselves well with implementing the double-barrel turrets which doubled the reload rate on the guns.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Magiaconatus

[sam_dom 87]

On 23/03/2020 at 14:00, Magiaconatus said:

Poor Moga. The Frenchies acquitted themselves well with implementing the double-barrel turrets which doubled the reload rate on the guns.

The problem was electrical power ... the ship could genérate enought electrical power

Personnally , the Mogador was never my favorite , i have more interest for Surcouf T47

Edited April 5, 2020 by sam_dom

[Arghail 1,220]

Here are a couple schematics for the Mogador turrets.

 

Spoiler

 

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

Long time no see, but I am finally back with some good news!
Mogador was able to achieve 7.5 RPM or an 8 seconds reload.

From Jean Lassaque's  Les C.T. de 2880 tonnes du type Mogador (1936-1945):
 

Quote

Les 6 et 11 octobre 1938, les essais á la mer du dispositif modifié du Mogador sont assez décevants dans la mesure OCI le chargement n'est possible que si la hausse n'excede pas + 5°, au mieux + 10°. Au delá, il y a vidage systématique des alvéoles. Une cadence de tir de 8 coups/minute par tube est obtenue mais au prix de tels efforts physiques de la part des servants de chargement que ce débit ne peut étre durablement soutenu. 

Cette situation est considérée comme provisoirement acceptable. En effet, au début de 1939, le Mogador peut, grace a ses huit canons, débiter 60 coups/minute, soit un nombre de coups presque comparable aux Fantasque (avec 5 canons), d'autant que sa période de roulis ne fait perdre, avec cette cadence, aucune occasion de tir. Le Mogador attendra que l'installation révisée du Volta ait fait ses preuves, avant d'étre modifié son tour.

The English translation of the same text:

 

Quote

On 6th and 11th October 1938, the sea trials of the modified Mogador device were rather disappointing in the OCI measurement : loading is only possible if the rise does not exceed +5°, at best +10°. Beyond that, the cells are systematically emptied. A firing rate of 8 shots/minute per tube is obtained, but at the price of such physical efforts on the part of the loaders that this rate cannot be sustained over the long term. 

This situation is considered to be temporarily acceptable. Indeed, at the beginning of 1939, the Mogador can, thanks to its eight cannons, deliver 60 shots/minute, that is to say a number of shots almost comparable to the Fantasque (with 5 cannons), all the more so as its rolling period does not make lose, with this cadence, any shooting opportunity. The Mogador will wait until the revised installation of the Volta has proved its worth, before being modified its turn.

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Magiaconatus

[Arghail 1,220]

Thank you for your work. Well. It's certainly not the most insane reload rate I've ever seen but it's not that bad either.

[Artyom_Ascaron 48]

these ships look great! +1

[leCoucouDodu 114]

Contre-torpilleurs are a unique kind of ship.
+1

[sam_dom 87]

On 08/04/2021 at 12:41, leCoucouDodu said:

Contre-torpilleurs are a unique kind of ship.
+1

Not exactly , the origin of those large destroyer are definitevely French but few navy built similar vessel .
 

[ZackZooter 55]

This ship would make a decent opponent for BR 4.7 Destroyer (minus Akizuki-level) up to BR 5.0 Cruiser battle and hopefully a bit better than Italian RN Leone that were recently added... 

 

French made a naval guns basically close to cruiser-level firepower despite not being a cruiser gun.... 

 

In War Thunder, no Destroyer other than Z32 & Z25 can compete with cruisers, even USSR gun are 130mm gun.... Japan Yubari are mini-cruiser or medium-to-large destroyer (to me though) only have 140mm twin, one of a kind...

 

HMS Dido are scout cruiser and the only Destroyer that can match close currently is RN Comandanti Margottini which use 135mm gun despite having low DPM & RoF.... 

 

Although French navy use 138mm gun, their ship design are not much meant for direct surface combat based on what i see via picture & youtube somewhere... Just my opinion.... 

 

If there are other nation's navy which has gun larger than 140mm caliber added to Destroyer (NOT GERMANY)  LET ME KNOW

[FouManchou 2,463]

23 hours ago, ZackZooter said:

French made a naval guns basically close to cruiser-level firepower despite not being a cruiser gun.... 

 

In War Thunder, no Destroyer other than Z32 & Z25 can compete with cruisers, even USSR gun are 130mm gun.... Japan Yubari are mini-cruiser or medium-to-large destroyer (to me though) only have 140mm twin, one of a kind...

 

HMS Dido are scout cruiser and the only Destroyer that can match close currently is RN Comandanti Margottini which use 135mm gun despite having low DPM & RoF.... 

If you think caliber is the most important thing in a destroyer's guns, let me tell you you are mistaken.

The most important component of dammage-potential is rate of fire. Which is why US destroyers with autoloaders reign absolutely supreme. They might have "only" 127mm guns, but they'll wreck a light cruiser (and even heavy cruiser) much faster than slightly larger but much slower firing guns. Penetration can be important as well, but at the ranges you're fighting at in WT, and with the power of HE, most similar caliber guns will go through armour (even Heavy Cruiser grade) when using AP/SAP.

[ZackZooter 55]

I agree with you on all that... just saying that at very least that i'm hoping to see it being quite different when Gaijin adds French Navy with such guns.... I'm saying this based on Italian comparison despite being a large destroyer, its caliber are not average DD level even if we include its TNT filler (DPM, RoF, Turret Traverse and Dual Purpose are basic standard for effective firepower on Destroyer & larger warship's secondaries which US Navy adopted such guns... It's all just my opinion.... 

 

To me, personally, Hypothetically if one day someone managed to create 150mm autocannon which can fire 40 rounds per minute, can hit the flying jets from afar high and eventually it got added into the game, that would be crazily scary IRL BUT in game, it might be quite awesome and game breaking at the same time... 

 

I one thing can say about futuristic weaponry... I definitely don't wanna see large-caliber Railgun firing at me from 100 miles away, even though i was flying JETS N surely NO LASER and such too... If that happens when i only play modern units against such firepower, then im gonna give up this game for good

[sam_dom 87]

On 21/10/2021 at 18:15, ZackZooter said:

Although French navy use 138mm gun, their ship design are not much meant for direct surface combat based on what i see via picture & youtube somewhere... Just my opinion.... 

 

If there are other nation's navy which has gun larger than 140mm caliber added to Destroyer (NOT GERMANY)  LET ME KNOW

No one , and the 150 mm wasn't a sucess , they regressed to 12,7 mm on the 1936 B.

The contre-torpilleur was a curious concept , valuable during the 20's  .
The Royal Navy called them " Destroyer Leader " .


Despite the impressive caliber , the result wasn't particulary impressive has light cruisers started to be decently armored and the destroyer more powerful .
The French had the particularity to field  an entire squadron of  " leaders " for  "hit and run tactic  "   whive particulary effective results  during the Dakar and Lebanon crisis .

Quote

On 9 June, Jackal and Janus engaged the Vichy French destroyers Valmy and Guépard when the French ships attacked Australian ground forces. Both Jackal and Janus were hit by shells from the French ships, with Janus sustaining serious damage although Jackal sustained no casualties, before the French ships retired to port

But honnestly , they were verry expansive to built ! The Mogador was just the pinnacle of the concept .

an interesting  link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flotilla_leader
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer_leader

Edited October 23, 2021 by sam_dom

[ZackZooter 55]

noted... thanks alot for telling me

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

On 22/10/2021 at 17:47, FouManchou said:

If you think caliber is the most important thing in a destroyer's guns, let me tell you you are mistaken.

The most important component of dammage-potential is rate of fire. Which is why US destroyers with autoloaders reign absolutely supreme. They might have "only" 127mm guns, but they'll wreck a light cruiser (and even heavy cruiser) much faster than slightly larger but much slower firing guns. Penetration can be important as well, but at the ranges you're fighting at in WT, and with the power of HE, most similar caliber guns will go through armour (even Heavy Cruiser grade) when using AP/SAP.

I disagree. A good Tashkent/Spokoiny can wreck US DDs, thanks to their  overall SAP damage and accuracy. Somers and Porter are easy ammoracks generally.

 

France could have similar performance if Gaijin wants that.

 

[FouManchou 2,463]

10 hours ago, Magiaconatus said:

I disagree. A good Tashkent/Spokoiny can wreck US DDs, thanks to their  overall SAP damage and accuracy. Somers and Porter are easy ammoracks generally.

 

France could have similar performance if Gaijin wants that.

 

I would rate Spokoiny as best DD beside the US ones. Their SAP having very high HE for the caliber and type, as well as RoF being more than decent compensates for only four guns.

 

And of course "a good one" can wreck a bad US player. But you don't often see a Spokoiny with 15 kills and no deaths in a bot-free game, whereas that's quite common for a Moffett/Porter.

 

 

At the end of the day, all I'm saying is having a higher caliber is very far from being the most important metric ; it's behind RoF, shell selection and shell quality.

[sam_dom 87]

17 hours ago, Magiaconatus said:

I disagree. A good Tashkent/Spokoiny can wreck US DDs, thanks to their  overall SAP damage and accuracy. Somers and Porter are easy ammoracks generally.

 

France could have similar performance if Gaijin wants that.

 

if Gaijin wants ...
The  le Fantasque , le Hardi  or a Mogador can definitevely compete whive an Benson/Gleave or a Fletcher class ,..

The le Fantasque could achieve 15 rounds/minutes  * and the  Mogador  sould achieve 9 rounds/minutes per guns ( 18 per turrets) 

Spoiler

*Another source claim 12 for the le Fantasque

Edited October 24, 2021 by sam_dom

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

26 minutes ago, sam_dom said:

if Gaijin wants ...
The  le Fantasque , le Hardi  or a Mogador can definitevely compete whive an Benson/Gleave or a Fletcher class ,..

The le Fantasque could achieve 15 rounds/minutes  * and the  Mogador  sould achieve 9 rounds/minutes per guns ( 18 per turrets) 

Reveal hidden contents

*Another source claim 12 for the le Fantasque

I remember 12 RPM from one of Jean Lassaque's book for Le Fantasque, and the same 60 RPM for all guns on Mogador, ergo 7.5 RPM, but there was a 8 RPM figure as well.

 

Either way, we would still need another source to back it up.

 

By the way, sam, are French range tables available on the internet somewhere? How are they called in French if I wanted to look for them?

[sam_dom 87]

27 minutes ago, Magiaconatus said:

I remember 12 RPM from one of Jean Lassaque's book for Le Fantasque, and the same 60 RPM for all guns on Mogador, ergo 7.5 RPM, but there was a 8 RPM figure as well.

 

Either way, we would still need another source to back it up.

 

By the way, sam, are French range tables available on the internet somewhere? How are they called in French if I wanted to look for them?

12 RPM is for Jean Lassaque book  .

For Mogador , we discused the problem and the turret was a terrible failure

Quote

Theoretically the guns could be loaded at any angle, but the power rammer was so weak that it could not ram shells at angles above 10°. This problem, coupled with the "poor quality of manufacture of the guns, the unsatisfactory profile of the breech, resulted in a firing cycle of only 3-4 rounds per minute during the early trials with jams and failures frequent", rather than the planned 10 rounds per minute. A further problem was that there only two loaders assigned to the gun crew; they tired quickly during prolonged firing. (..) Both Volta and Mogador were refitted in January 1940 and had their turrets modified, although loading still could not be done at angles higher than 10°. ^{(.. .) .}Five-round ready racks for each gun were added to the sides of the turrets during the refit to compensate for any problems with the loading systems

the source are provided by john Jordan

 

[Arghail 1,220]

4 hours ago, Magiaconatus said:

I remember 12 RPM from one of Jean Lassaque's book for Le Fantasque, and the same 60 RPM for all guns on Mogador, ergo 7.5 RPM, but there was a 8 RPM figure as well.

 

Either way, we would still need another source to back it up.

 

By the way, sam, are French range tables available on the internet somewhere? How are they called in French if I wanted to look for them?

Range tables are called "tables de tir" (Firing tables) in French, though I'm not certain you're gonna find any specific to the various naval French artillery guns of the 1930's.

[Magiaconatus 1,679]

6 minutes ago, Arghail said:

Range tables are called "tables de tir" (Firing tables) in French, though I'm not certain you're gonna find any specific to the various naval French artillery guns of the 1930's.

Thanks, Arghail!

Oh, damn... Here I thought that since many of the ship blueprints are available, maybe the range tables would be as well.

[Arghail 1,220]

11 minutes ago, Magiaconatus said:

Thanks, Arghail!

Oh, damn... Here I thought that since many of the ship blueprints are available, maybe the range tables would be as well.

Oh, wait. Maybe...

http://www.pangea-systems.com/wwiiws/ships/

Try here. That's where I found the BPs of the Hardi. I don't have the time to go through all the documents, I must hit the sack, but perhaps you'll find interesting stuff among what was gathered here.

Edit : http://www.pangea-systems.com/wwiiws/ships/le_hardi/130mm/

Edited October 24, 2021 by Arghail