Future French air tree speculations and discussion

[MessInMines 327]

More modern jets are on their way and I think France definitely has some interesting machines to offer for that era.
The purpose of this topic is to discuss what french planes could come into the game in the future and where they would be in the tech tree.
I myself have prepared this potential tech tree arrangement.

This includes modifications to the tier 5 of the tree that have been discussed before (but keeping only three lines).

All the foreign aircrafts are kept in the same line, that line then becomes the hybrid fighter/CAS line later on.
All the naval aircrafts are kept in the Bomber line, except for the forreign ones. (like the F-8E(FN) for example)

Premiums are forreign variations of french aircrafts.
Aircrafts that are just on top of earch other (without an arrow between them) are variants of a same aircraft that could be foldered together.

I chose to exclude the prototypes and pre-series of aircrafts that made it into production. (like the Mirage IIIA for example)

 

To make things clearer and explain some choices I made while making this, I made this imaginary Q&A :

Q : Why keeping only three lines ?

A : That's the big question. I think that three lines are enouth when thinking about the role of each aircraft. I do not believe that more lines are necessary. This topic focuses on making a coherent tier 5+ tree layout for France.

Q : Why not a separate line for naval aircrafts ?
A : It is possible. It's a matter of wether the players prefer to keep the forreign aircrafts in a separate line or if they prefer to have all the naval aircrafts in the same line. Placing aircrafts like the F-8E(FN) in the bomber line would make no sense at all, so a separate line would be necessary. I think keeping all the forreign aircrafts in the same line is the right approach.

 

Q : Why are modern variants of much older aircrafts placed right under the original one ?
A : Much like Gaijin chose to keep the F-4C and F-4E, or the Mig-21 F-13 and Mig-21SMT together despite the time gap, I chose to take the same approach as I expect them to keep implementing aircrafts that way.

 

Q : Why is the CM.170 Magister missing from the tree ?
A : Not all aircrafts can fit in the game. Unfortunately the Magister's weapons are too weak to fit anywhere. (at least in rank 5 and more)

 

Q : Do you plan on making this a suggestion at some point ?
A : Maybe. I want to know what french tree players think of this before taking the time to make one. (please take the time to answer the poll !) Also it won't be a suggestion about the aircrafts in the tree, but only about their place in the tree should they be implemented.

 

I will add more questions if I think of something or if someone asks me one.

 

Color codes :
Already in the game

Coming soon

Prototypes that could come in the future

Regular aircrafts that could come in the future

 

Updated the table.

Not much changed this time. I added the S.O.4060 prototype in the space between the Vautour IIN and the Etendard IV family.
It was never officially named the Super Vautour. The true name has been long forgotten and the nickname "Super Vautour" stayed.

I decided to keep both the Etendard IVP and IVPM despite both of them being almost identical because ultimately, I don't know which one Gaijin could implement.

 

There isn't much that could be added apart from prototypes, and we already have plenty of them in the tree already, so I would rather not add more unless it's to fill a gap.

 

 

 

 

Here is a table with air-to-air missiles used by the french air force or navy.
It can be useful to better understand the power level of each aircraft.
A lot of it is guesswork, as finding exacly what missiles each aircraft could carry is a lot of work.

I chose to only put aircrafts that entered service in the list, as we can only speculate on what missiles each prototype could have carried.

Aircraft variants that can all carry the same missiles (AFAIK) are grouped together. This is indicated by the (all) after the aircraft name.

Lightweight missiles are in blue, and heavy missiles are in orange.
The hardpoints column only takes missile-capable hardpoints into account. (#L are for light hardpoints, and #H for heavy hardpoints)
A lightweight missile can be mounted on a heavy hardpoint, but not the other way around.

So the Mirage F1C (2H + 2L) can mount up to 4 light missiles, or up to 2 heavy missiles and 2 light missiles.

 

Update on the missile table :

I implemented some suggestions.
The AA-20 and the Meteor missiles have been added to the table.
The type of guidance and the year of introduction are now indicated for each missile.
I added available missile characteristics to better understand their level of performance.
The Meteor NF.11, Aquilon, and Mystère IV have been added to the table.
Corrected some errors (like the Jaguar that can't carry R530), let me know if I missed anything.

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by MessInMines

[Galm1_Cypher 378]

Good to see this topic! You can already add The Fouga CM170 Magister at rank 5 and Alphajet at early rank 6  
for the missing aircraft i'd suggest : 
Etendard IVM

         V

Super Etendard (SUE)
         V
Mirage IV             
         V
Super Etendard (SEM) 
         V
Mirage 2000 D
         V 
Rafale B 

And Replace standard rafale in the fighter tree by Rafale M (last version produced)


And big Up For Mirage 4000, Little sister of the 2000 (bigger in size lol) 

Oh and you can add as a premium an unprobable F15B once one was fitted with french colors for 4 days.

[Notice_Me_Senpoi 629]

We still are missing the Mystère IV in the rank 5 tree too. Honestly it's rather amazing Gaijin completely ignored the production aircraft and went for low-performance Mystère II.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Notice_Me_Senpoi

[MessInMines 327]

1 hour ago, Garm_Cypher said:

Good to see this topic! You can already add The Fouga CM170 Magister at rank 5 and Alphajet at early rank 6  
for the missing aircraft i'd suggest : 
Etendard IVM

         V

Super Etendard (SUE)
         V
Mirage IV             
         V
Super Etendard (SEM) 
         V
Mirage 2000 D
         V 
Rafale B 

And Replace standard rafale in the fighter tree by Rafale M (last version produced)


And big Up For Mirage 4000, Little sister of the 2000 (bigger in size lol) 

Oh and you can add as a premium an unprobable F15B once one was fitted with french colors for 4 days.

 

Thanks for the ideas. The Magister and the Alpha jet probably could fit in there. I kind of forgot about them because they are primarily training aircrafts  

Why do you suggest moving the Mirage 2000D in the bomber/attacker line ?
 

The rafale exists in three versions that are all still produced to this day :
Rafale M for the navy (the M stands for "Marine" = Navy)
Rafale B is the two seater variant (B = "Biplace") They use them for training and for attack missions that last a long time (better performance with two people for strike missions)

Rafale C is the fighter variant (the C stands for "Chasse" = Hunt) even if the aircraft is multirole, they kept the way of naming aircraft variants from older aircrafts.
So if we were to place them all in the tree, I'd say the Rafale C would go into the fighter line, the B in the fighter/CAS line and the M after the Super Etendard.

 

I think it's also better to keep the Super Etendard variants one after another, it makes more sense progression-wise and they are not that much different from each-other.
Also they are strike aircraft so I think their respective strike capabilities will be taken frist into consideration when putting them in the tree.

 

Can you tell me more about that F-15B with french colors ?

 

 

1 hour ago, Notice_Me_Senpoi said:

We still are missing the Mystère IV in the rank 5 tree too. Honestly it's rather amazing Gaijin completely ignored the production aircraft and went for low-performance Mystère II.

 

Right !
I think I will put the Super Mystère B4 together with the B2 and put the Mystère IV in its place, what do you think ?

Edited April 17, 2020 by MessInMines

[Galm1_Cypher 378]

Mirage 2000D is used in Air to Ground attacks, this version almost always loaded with dumb or laser guided bomb
For the super Étendard, maybe put them in a folder can be an idea.

Agreed for the rafale but i doubt we will get 3 variants. 
i put Rafale b in the bomber line for its strike missions use. 

Rafale C and M are almost identical, M have a reinforced landing gear and carrier capabilities that's why i prioritize it on the C. And keep in mind that in the US tree F-4C is in the fighter line despite its carrier capabilities ^^ 

For the F-15 i dont have much informations, i discovered this recently, the only thing i have is the pic and this "USAF F-15B 71-0291, originally built as TF-15A, wearing French AF roundels during promotion tour in 1976, flew like this for only four days!!"

[nxdefiant001 1,397]

No Aquilon or Mistral ?

Edited April 17, 2020 by nxdefiant001

[Galm1_Cypher 378]

AA-20 Aquilion was only on SMB2, Mystere IV and Venom.
Mistral is not used on planes, only on helis and ground launchers ^^ 

[MessInMines 327]

4 minutes ago, Garm_Cypher said:

AA-20 Aquilion was only on SMB2, Mystere IV and Venom.
Mistral is not used on planes, only on helis and ground launchers ^^ 

 

That's true. The AA-20 stopped being used when autonomous guided missiles became operational.

The AA-20 was developped as a stop-gap mesure to give the french forces a weapon to intercept bombers while more advanced missiles were being developped.
The R510 (with some kind of weird IR guidance) was developped but was only effective at day and in very clear weather.
So the R511 (semi-active radar) was developped soon after and entered production for a short time (only 100 were made). It was the very first french-made autonomous guided missile to enter service.

It was however deemed too limited for widespread active service, and so the R530 was developped.
While all of this was going on, the french airforce received AIM-9B missiles from the US. It was the first and last time France bought foreign missiles (AFAIK).

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Very nice 

I thought about doing a similar post but never got the time.

 

Here are some corrections for the missile part :

- The Vautour IIN never used the R.530, it was made for the Mirage IIIC but wasn't ready when it entered service. That's the reason why the Mirage used the R.511 temporarly.

- The Mirage IIIs never used the Super 530 (F or D), only the R.530 (both IR and EM versions).

1 minute ago, MessInMines said:

The R510 (with some kind of weird IR guidance) was developped but was only effective at day and in very clear weather.

Only at night actually (and clear weather) 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

You can add 3 aircraft right after the F-84G:

Mistral -> Aquilon -> F-84F

[Nicolaser 2,024]

Still no proof of conventional bomb under mirage 4 wing thus it can't be added in game

[Cedjoe 5,482]

6 minutes ago, Nicolaser said:

Still no proof of conventional bomb under mirage 4 wing thus it can't be added in game

I answered you here with proof :

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by Cedjoe

[MessInMines 327]

Just now, Cedjoe said:

I answered you here with proof :

 

 

 

was just about to link it to him but you beat me to it 

[Cedjoe 5,482]

You can also replace Mystère IV with this folder :

Mystère IVA

Mystère IVB

Mystère IVN

[Nicolaser 2,024]

15 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

I answered you here with proof :

 

Didn't saw that

 

 

For the mirage 4 being faster with bomb than without it's just area rule

11 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

Mystère IVB

Not sure it ever reach the prototype, they were aborted in favor of SMB2

1 hour ago, Garm_Cypher said:

Mirage 2000D is used in Air to Ground attacks, this version almost always loaded with dumb or laser guided bomb
For the super Étendard, maybe put them in a folder can be an idea.

Agreed for the rafale but i doubt we will get 3 variants. 
i put Rafale b in the bomber line for its strike missions use. 

Rafale C and M are almost identical, M have a reinforced landing gear and carrier capabilities that's why i prioritize it on the C. And keep in mind that in the US tree F-4C is in the fighter line despite its carrier capabilities ^^ 

For the F-15 i dont have much informations, i discovered this recently, the only thing i have is the pic and this "USAF F-15B 71-0291, originally built as TF-15A, wearing French AF roundels during promotion tour in 1976, flew like this for only four days!!"

M variant also has a lower max weight take off

 

 

Finally Magister/zephyr aren't needed for the game currently unless you want to be food for other plane

 

Does turboprop fit in your tree?

I'm impressed that no one spoke about alpha jet ( don't add it it has no weapon under French army even if it qualified for it)

Edited April 17, 2020 by Nicolaser

[MessInMines 327]

24 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

You can add 3 aircraft right after the F-84G:

Mistral -> Aquilon -> F-84F

 

18 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

You can also replace Mystère IV with this folder :

Mystère IVA

Mystère IVB

Mystère IVN

 

Thank you for the suggestions.

I will need some help with the Mistral. The wikipedia article is quite messy 

From what I found on wikipedia France used all these variants :
Vampire F.1

Vampire FB.5

Vampire FB.51 (first variant made in france)

SE.530 Mistral (prototype)

SE.532

SE.535

 

What variant should the french tech tree get ?

 

Also should I swap the Super Mystère with the Mystère IV ? I'm not sure

Edited April 17, 2020 by MessInMines

[Cedjoe 5,482]

6 minutes ago, MessInMines said:

 

 

Thank you for the suggestions.

I will need some help with the Mistral. The wikipedia article is quite messy 

From what I found on wikipedia France used all these variants :
Vampire F.1

Vampire FB.5

Vampire FB.51 (first variant made in france)

SE.530 Mistral (prototype)

SE.532

SE.535

From what I read only the 532 and 535 were really mass produced and used by France and the 535 is the most advanced version so I think it should be this one.

 

7 minutes ago, MessInMines said:

Also should I swap the Super Mystère with the Mystère IV ? I'm not sure

I think so yes.

[Nicolaser 2,024]

2 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

I think so yes.

Yes but do some research about mystere 4b

Edited April 17, 2020 by Nicolaser

[MessInMines 327]

2 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

From what I read only the 532 and 535 were really mass produced and used by France and the 535 is the most advanced version so I think it should be this one.

 

I think so yes.

 

Thank you. I will update the tech tree with all of that then.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Just now, Nicolaser said:

No SMB2 is a development of the mystère 4

Yes that's why he should swap them 

[MessInMines 327]

Just now, Nicolaser said:

No SMB2 is a development of the mystère 4

 

In my tech tree the SMB2 is before the Mystère IV, so I should indeed swap them.

[Nicolaser 2,024]

Just now, Cedjoe said:

Yes that's why he should swap them 

Don't know what you're talking about

[AlphaVI 1,211]

1 minute ago, MessInMines said:

 

In my tech tree the SMB2 is before the Mystère IV, so I should indeed swap them.

imo, yes, what does the others think ?

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Just now, Nicolaser said:

 

Don't know what you're talking about

In the initial post, the Mystère IV is placed after the SMB2.

[Bringer_Of_War 901]

1 hour ago, Garm_Cypher said:

Mirage 2000D is used in Air to Ground attacks, this version almost always loaded with dumb or laser guided bomb
For the super Étendard, maybe put them in a folder can be an idea.

Agreed for the rafale but i doubt we will get 3 variants. 
i put Rafale b in the bomber line for its strike missions use. 

Rafale C and M are almost identical, M have a reinforced landing gear and carrier capabilities that's why i prioritize it on the C. And keep in mind that in the US tree F-4C is in the fighter line despite its carrier capabilities ^^ 

For the F-15 i dont have much informations, i discovered this recently, the only thing i have is the pic and this "USAF F-15B 71-0291, originally built as TF-15A, wearing French AF roundels during promotion tour in 1976, flew like this for only four days!!"

Add Rafale M only then , since by then we'd have the new carriers