The Folland Gnat F.1 / HAL Ajeet Mk.1: Should it be Implemented?

[Th3hadyn 5,881]

1 hour ago, puffin777 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folland_Gnat "the Gnat became well known due to its prominent use as the display aircraft of the RAF's Red Arrows aerobatic team."

Perhaps not the Gnat F.1, but one of them definitely had it.

That's what i mean. The T.1 were used irl for aerobatics (Yellowjacks and Red Arrows), but the F.1 wasn't since we never really made or used that many of them ourselves. But would at least look more authentic than the Swift F.1 which currently has the skin in game. We used the T.1 extensively for aerobatics and "fast jet" training however.

Most of this video is some Red Arrows pilots playing around in some Gnats, good for getting an idea of the speed and agility they possessed. 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Th3hadyn

[Th3hadyn 5,881]

For those interested in a size comparison. I finally managed to come across this image again i remember seeing ages ago but forgot to save.
 

Spoiler

 

[BadOpinionHaver 2,092]

37 minutes ago, Th3hadyn said:

For those interested in a size comparison. I finally managed to come across this image again i remember seeing ages ago but forgot to save.
 

  Hide contents

 

Very neat, and I thought the G.91 was small!

[puffin777 40]

55 minutes ago, watch_your_fire said:

Very neat, and I thought the G.91 was small!

One of the main reasons I wanted to see the Gnat in the game; performance and representation is good enough, but I do love a good meme vehicle (as long as it doesn't make it extremely overpowered like the 'swedish revolver') So Gnat 'Cute fighter boi', Harrier 'Who needs a runway?' and Tog 2 'Thick sausage tank'

[Th3hadyn 5,881]

3 hours ago, puffin777 said:

but I do love a good meme vehicle (as long as it doesn't make it extremely overpowered like the 'swedish revolver')

Depends on how Gaijin tier it really to decide if it would be a meme vehicle or not. It's quite a hard plane to balance. It is almost as fast as the later Hunters and Scimitar but instead of being a total bus it is very shifty and agile, which will make countering it very hard for stuff like Sabres and MiG-15bis so it would probably club in the 8.3-9.3 BR range. 9.7 would be the absolute lowest i'd put it. But Gaijin lately have been in the habit of undertiering British vehicles (Scimitar and Lightning), so if the Gnat F.1 does ever get added, it could end up being a FOTM in a worse case scenario and thereby a meme vehicle.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Th3hadyn

[puffin777 40]

15 minutes ago, Th3hadyn said:

undertiering British vehicles (Scimitar and Lightning),

Which is strange, considering the opposite could be said for British tanks.

16 minutes ago, Th3hadyn said:

FOTM in a worse case scenario and thereby a meme vehicle.

Definitely not a thing I'd like to see, should just be a cute little capable fighter, not another clubber for toxic players to use on people just trying to have a good time.

[Th3hadyn 5,881]

Looking at the original post i made for this thread, the top tier meta has changed drastically since. Being a 10.0 is pretty much off the table now. It would get absolutely smashed that high up, so 9.7 would likely be best for a new BR for the Gnat F.1 to keep it balanced, unless a bracket comes along that prevents 10.0s from facing 10.3s anyway.

But i'm still of the opinion that this aircraft would be perfect to round off the 1950s fighters for Britain, at least in terms of brand new vehicles, rather than variants of already existing ones (Still holding out hope for an intermediate and late model Hunter). It would play completely differently to the rest of the 8.7-10.0 subsonics which entirely consist of large and bricky energy fighters a la the Hunters/Scimitar. The Javelin is certainly different but has an extremely tough learning curve to it and isn't forgiving at all for most pilots. The Gnat F.1 effectively being a "Super G.91 R/3" within the meta would diversity things a bit, and make for a great jack of all trades which is much easier to get to grips with. I do hope it is still being considered for some point in the future.

In terms of implementation my only worry really (After rereading the pilot notes) would be the G Limit listed here:

Spoiler

Using the in game equation for working out structural limits for G-forces "X multiplied by x1.5" ("X" being the manual's G limits, so in this case +7G and -3G), this would equate to the Gnat F.1 ripping apart when pulling +10.5G sustained or +11G instantaneously, and then -4.5G sustained or -5G instantaneously. This would limit the Gnat quite a bit at higher speeds as it would be prone to ripping. With how unstable/twitchy and light it is, even at higher speeds (At least according to the manual), coupled with a small turning circle, may make it very easy to rip. Whilst it would be manageable (The G.91Rs do alright and have similar limits) it could be quite difficult to work around in the heat of combat.


Those concerns aside, the Gnat F.1 is quite hard to find videos of in flight, however whilst watching over some old air show footage from the 50's, i by chance came across a couple short clips (time stamps 1:35 and 2:07) of it being shown off at said airshow in what looks to be some of its earliest flights. It's in its prototype colours and has no provisions for armament yet (Unlike XK724 who came later) with gear still only partially retracted. But again, like the size comparison next to the Sabre and G.91 posted earlier, it really gives a sense of scale to how small the fighter is compared to most everything else in British service at the time. A true light fighter: 

 

[Skinny105 58]

44 minutes ago, Th3hadyn said:

Looking at the original post i made for this thread, the top tier meta has changed drastically since. Being a 10.0 is pretty much off the table now. It would get absolutely smashed that high up, so 9.7 would likely be best for a new BR for the Gnat F.1 to keep it balanced, unless a bracket comes along that prevents 10.0s from facing 10.3s anyway.

But i'm still of the opinion that this aircraft would be perfect to round off the 1950s fighters for Britain, at least in terms of brand new vehicles, rather than variants of already existing ones (Still holding out hope for an intermediate and late model Hunter). It would play completely differently to the rest of the 8.7-10.0 subsonics which entirely consist of large and bricky energy fighters a la the Hunters/Scimitar. The Javelin is certainly different but has an extremely tough learning curve to it and isn't forgiving at all for most pilots. The Gnat F.1 effectively being a "Super G.91 R/3" within the meta would diversity things a bit, and make for a great jack of all trades which is much easier to get to grips with. I do hope it is still being considered for some point in the future.

In terms of implementation my only worry really (After rereading the pilot notes) would be the G Limit listed here:

  Hide contents

Using the in game equation for working out structural limits for G-forces "X multiplied by x1.5" ("X" being the manual's G limits, so in this case +7G and -3G), this would equate to the Gnat F.1 ripping apart when pulling +10.5G sustained or +11G instantaneously, and then -4.5G sustained or -5G instantaneously. This would limit the Gnat quite a bit at higher speeds as it would be prone to ripping. With how unstable/twitchy and light it is, even at higher speeds (At least according to the manual), coupled with a small turning circle, may make it very easy to rip. Whilst it would be manageable (The G.91Rs do alright and have similar limits) it could be quite difficult to work around in the heat of combat.


Those concerns aside, the Gnat F.1 is quite hard to find videos of in flight, however whilst watching over some old air show footage from the 50's, i by chance came across a couple short clips (time stamps 1:35 and 2:07) of it being shown off at said airshow in what looks to be some of its earliest flights. It's in its prototype colours and has no provisions for armament yet (Unlike XK724 who came later) with gear still only partially retracted. But again, like the size comparison next to the Sabre and G.91 posted earlier, it really gives a sense of scale to how small the fighter is compared to most everything else in British service at the time. A true light fighter: 

 

The Gnat is what I need right now every BR range in jets seems to have something broken wrong with it, whether that be the F-89 things ruining 7.0 and onwards, the scimitar kinda breaking the game at 7.7-9.0 and the lightning breaking 8.7-9.7 completely. Top tier Britain is ruined for me by the fact the FGR.2/FG.1 don’t have their proper radar and are lacking the Aim-9Gs (which are still underperforming).

The Gnat would continue the legacy lost with the Meteor MK.8 and Venom by giving Britain a true dog fighter one that’s a little rocket ship at that. Super hard to hit (smol boi) + (that sabre on crack roll rate) + (lovely wing loading). The T/W ratio for a subsonic is outstanding also it will likely be better at accelerating and climbing than the scimitar that already dabs on everything in that department bar the lightning. Smallish ammo count though at only 115rpg but by no means terrible. It’s not got much ordinance but the scimitar is for that. It’s fuel load will be small but probably still more than sufficient for warthunder.

 

I agree 9.7 is pretty much the only place it can go. It’s only true threat would the lightning (and maybe the scimitar is probs the next best jet). If people do squads of half lightnings and half gnats I don’t see the enemy team standing a chance.

[Th3hadyn 5,881]

17 hours ago, Skinny105 said:

The Gnat would continue the legacy lost with the Meteor MK.8 and Venom by giving Britain a true dog fighter one that’s a little rocket ship at that.

This most definitely. My first "top tier" jet was the Meteor Mk.8 (Was max BR, 9.0, at the time) and i developed a lot of my play style with jets based on that aircraft. Wasn't the fastest, but had some of the best acceleration of the meta back then (only exceeded by the MiG-15Bis slightly at lower speeds) and was good in almost all aspects, but not spectacular in any one area like the Sabres were for speed or the MiG-15bis was in energy retention. The Venom FB.4, if it was like what it is now, also would've been great back in those days, but at the time it had almost no elevator authority at all, turning worse than even some bombers like a fully loaded IL-28 at higher speeds which made it sort of useless a lot of the time, as it didn't have the top speed or acceleration of the other top tiers of the day. The Venom FB.4 back then was sort of like if you were always stuck at low altitude in the current Javelin where you lack the ability to retreat effectively.

But the Gnat would be something that could certainly recapture the old gunfighter style of dog fighting.
 

 

18 hours ago, Skinny105 said:

I agree 9.7 is pretty much the only place it can go. It’s only true threat would the lightning (and maybe the scimitar is probs the next best jet). If people do squads of half lightnings and half gnats I don’t see the enemy team standing a chance.

Hopefully the Lightning will be moved up by that point, a Hunter, Scimitar or even a Javelin working in conjunction with the Gnat would still be quite deadly. But the way to counter the Gnat would be its one "weakness" where it bleeds energy very easily since it's very light. Whilst that means it has great acceleration it also means there is a period where you will be building your speed back up after coming out of a turn and it means bleeding energy is much easier just because you have less momentum. So faster fighters, such as the later Hunters, Demon, Tiger. Scimitar, F-100, etc with their still quite good acceleration and much better energy retention could keep coming back around forcing you to evade to bleed your speed and keep you energy trapped. But even slower fighters, as long as they have good energy retention and decent acceleration, would be able to keep on top of you. It would just be harder than most other aircraft, since you are very small, have such a good T/W and possess such agility.

The aircraft i'd compare it to in terms of countering is the Komet, if the Komet didn't have the fuel limitation. The Komet is small, agile and whilst very light can pull a lot of energy out of nowhere pretty quick due to being a rocket and having a good T/W. The Gnat, being a jet, would feel slightly different but the general mythos would still be the same where you try and prevent it from accelerating either to finish it yourself or have your team make passes in order to try and take it out whilst you keep it occupied. Small size and agility can only save you for so long without support. The thing that makes the Gnat, theoretically, so strong is its performance is superior to most subsonics so it could quite frequently control the terms of the fight, only stuff faster than it would really be able to dictate the initial fight if you keep your speed up.

Which is where missiles come in. A lot of aircraft have sidewinders or equivalents from between 8.7-9.7. And whilst they are easy to evade if you know they are there, they do still force you to evade which can allow an opening to counter the Gnat. But at lower speeds especially in the event of being energy trapped, it makes you a sitting duck as evading missiles when you are slow is very hard. So missiles would end up beng the great equaliser. It would be a lot to handle for quite a few aircraft in the BR range (See how well some Komet pilots do atm), that would be why it would be 9.7 to make sure it would be facing stuff which would be able to counter it easier.

[guffers 12]

I hope this gets implemented, very cool aircraft.

[Th3hadyn 5,881]

Despite being quite far removed from each other, the introduction of the SK60/SAAB-105 could mean that there is still the potential for smaller/lighter aircraft like the Gnat to make an appearance in the future.

In spite of not having great ground attack ability, the Gnat could still have the potential to run amuck in a ground forces setting as a hard to spot and detect fighter. Being small and hard to hit in a setting with no markers would make it fairly adept at taking out aircraft such as G.91s and helicopters.

If not the Gnat F.1, the Gnat T.1 or the Hawks could also potentially turn up in the future.

[PremiumFuelOnly 1,603]

On 06/01/2021 at 02:46, Th3hadyn said:

If not the Gnat F.1, the Gnat T.1 or the Hawks could also potentially turn up in the future.

 

With fictional SRAAMs it never used)))

 

Would be of good implementations for having premium pack sales, da comrade?

[TerikG2014 1,389]

5 hours ago, Aquilachrysaetos said:

 

With fictional SRAAMs it never used)))

 

Would be of good implementations for having premium pack sales, da comrade?

Harrier was the last aircraft that SRAAM's were trialed with I suppose a debate could be made for the export Jag but that has magics anyway

[PremiumFuelOnly 1,603]

1 hour ago, TerikG2014 said:

Harrier was the last aircraft that SRAAM's were trialed with I suppose a debate could be made for the export Jag but that has magics anyway

 

A T.52,  not a GR.1 .

 

Variant specificity matters.

[jd_hog77 332]

51 minutes ago, Aquilachrysaetos said:

 

A T.52,  not a GR.1 .

 

Variant specificity matters.

Smin explained already there was enough primary and secondary, including documents from Hawker, to support the Harriers getting SRAAM’s. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by jd_hog77

[Smin1080p 60,444]

1 hour ago, Aquilachrysaetos said:

 

A T.52,  not a GR.1 .

 

Variant specificity matters.

 

It does matter indeed, and SRAAM was intended for GR.1 too. Thats why it has them also. They are not "fantasy" but a fully proposed and intended option, but one which we have many examples of such in game:

 

[CaptinAdmiralAce 4]

where would the gnat go would it be right after swift f7 in rank vi or in rank v

[PremiumFuelOnly 1,603]

1 hour ago, Smin1080p said:

 

It does matter indeed, and SRAAM was intended for GR.1 too. Thats why it has them also. They are not "fantasy" but a fully proposed and intended option, but one which we have many examples of such in game:

 

 

Planned ≠ Used. The GR.1 never used them in service even if it was proposed. End of story.

 

It's a fundamental disagreement I have with this game's implementation of many vehicles (especially when WT isn't consistent with them). 

[Smin1080p 60,444]

1 minute ago, Aquilachrysaetos said:

 

Planned ≠ Used. The GR.1 never used them in service even if it was proposed. End of story.

 

It's a fundamental disagreement I have with this game's implementation of many vehicles (especially when WT isn't consistent with them). 

 

You are welcome to disagree with it, but it is a fact of War Thunder and over 50% of all vehicles in game were "never used in service" let alone a lot of their weaponry. 

 

Its not a standard for being in game and never has been.

[PremiumFuelOnly 1,603]

1 hour ago, Smin1080p said:

 

You are welcome to disagree with it, but it is a fact of War Thunder and over 50% of all vehicles in game were "never used in service" let alone a lot of their weaponry. 

 

Its not a standard for being in game and never has been.

 

Yes, I realize this. I also realize that I am a stickler in this regard.

 

Regardless, I was very pleased with the implementation of the PFM for the true-to-Soviet-service authenticity and wish such an approach was used more often going forward. 

Edited January 8, 2021 by Aquilachrysaetos

[Th3hadyn 5,881]

3 hours ago, CaptinAdmiralAce said:

where would the gnat go would it be right after swift f7 in rank vi or in rank v

Hard to say now really where it would be placed in the tech tree. It could probably be put either between the Swifts and Harrier, or maybe between the Javelin and Lightning (since it would likely be most commonly used as an interceptor with no secondary ordnance)

I think it would also certainly have to be a rank 6. It has better performance than the Hunter F.1 in most regards, whilst also matching or surpassing some of what the Hunter F.6 can do as well. Despite not having missiles, it would still very much be a good gunfighter and dogfighter. Plus being small and hard to hit is an advantage in and of itself, both in air battles and ground battles.

[idiot400 664]

I would love to have this thing. A British plane with the agility of a g91 with the acceleration of a mig-15Bis. +1

Edited January 24, 2021 by idiot400
clarify

[Tictaculer 1]

this might also help with the addition of the folland gnat it is a aircrew manual for the gnat

https://hang-out.co.uk/uploads/Gnat-T-Mk-1-Aircrew-Manual.pdf

[ledgend_defender 0]

i think it would be a great addition to the tech tree, but i couldn't find the angle of attack or the turn rate for the aircraft but i coud do more research but in other hand i found out that is was able to do a 360 roll in 1 second from: https://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/gnat/history.php and http://www.warbirdalley.com/gnat.htm#:~:text=Derived from the even-more,of 360 degrees per second.

[WNxDavid990 166]

Could be put in around 8.0-8.3 BR. It would more than likely go in front of, between or after the Swifts.