Stuka Ju-87 B-2 Cockpit Partiton wall.

[Manulslayor 2]

This is a visual mistake or bug of the plane model. both the JU-87 B-2 and R-2 have it.

From the outside wiev you should be able to see your rear guner in cockpit wiev in cockpit wiev hoewer thers a wall.

From what i could find out both existed with and without wall. But as it is in the game now it does not make sense.

[Pony51 6,571]

9 hours ago, Manulslayor said:

From what i could find out both existed with and without wall. But as it is in the game now it does not make sense.

 

The Stuka was one of first units in game, when cockpit views did not exist.  Looks like partition was missed in external view.

 

BTW, does it show as armor in X-ray?

[Manulslayor 2]

23 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

The Stuka was one of first units in game, when cockpit views did not exist.  Looks like partition was missed in external view.

 

BTW, does it show as armor in X-ray?

Both do not show as as armor in X-ray and armor wiever.

[Target1331 3,054]

Hi Pony,

 

FYI the external 3D model of the Ju 87s where updated: https://warthunder.com/en/news/4542-development-ju-87-stuka-new-models-e

Though it appears it this was not done to the cockpit model. I checked some old footage of the cockpit and at a quick glance it appears it is still the same cockpit used since the beginning of War Thunder.

That old cockpit did match the old, pre-2017, 3D external model, which had that plate. See these two random Ju-87R2 shots from WT.live:
Pre-2017 model (plate behind pilot seat):

Spoiler

Post-2017 model (no more plate behind pilot seat):

Spoiler

 

Best regards,

Phil

[Manulslayor 2]

Both do not show it as armor in the armor and X-ray wiever.

[Pony51 6,571]

Thanks

 

Italian Ju87 also same.

Well, now we need to find the armor thickness.  I looked in the 3 books I have, no luck with that.

 

Cannot process this without that.

7 hours ago, Target1331 said:

That old cockpit did match the old, pre-2017, 3D external model, which had that plate

Thanks for checking past versions!

[Manulslayor 2]

Ther is no information on the armour thiknes joust that the aded weight of the armour is 130 kg which would equal about 1,8m x 1,8m x 5mm steel plating. 

But as said both existed as well as in the b variant

Panzerung = armour

 

What the text in the pic above means is that the weightplan for the Ju 8i B-2  with armour is not finished.

 

Simply put removing the armor plate in cockpit viev is also right and a fix. 

As the problem is not that one is wrong its that the model shows both. 

After the research i can conclude that withoutout going to some archives the thicknes can not be found out. 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Manulslayor

[Pony51 6,571]

22 hours ago, Manulslayor said:

What the text in the pic above means is that the weightplan for the Ju 8i B-2  with armour is not finished

 

Data is found in another manual.

[Manulslayor 2]

58 minutes ago, Pony51 said:

Data is found in another manual

 

But i supect there is also nothing about the thicknes mentioned?

Which woul make removing the platte in cockpit wiev the way to fix this. At least till somone digs up the documents on how thick the armour is

 

 

[Chomusuke1 1,217]

 

[Pony51 6,571]

5 hours ago, Manulslayor said:

 

But i supect there is also nothing about the thicknes mentioned?

Which woul make removing the platte in cockpit wiev the way to fix this. At least till somone digs up the documents on how thick the armour is

 

It is better to submit with the data, or never submit it.

 

 

OK, let me ask, better to have the armor, or remove it and see behind you?

@Chomusuke1 ^^^ ?

[Target1331 3,054]

1 hour ago, Pony51 said:

 

It is better to submit with the data, or never submit it.

 

 

OK, let me ask, better to have the armor, or remove it and see behind you?

@Chomusuke1 ^^^ ?

Should probably be like La-5. Researchable backplate armor module. Most people would probably install it, but for AB & RB it would still give the option to gain a tiny bit of extra performance by uninstalling the plate, which for an underpowered aircraft like the Ju 87 might actually be worth a bit. For SB it becomes even more of a positive option as there next to the mini-performance gain, the rear view can be more important than that extra bit of armor.

 

Best regards,

Phil

[Chomusuke1 1,217]

2 hours ago, Pony51 said:

OK, let me ask, better to have the armor, or remove it and see behind you?

@Chomusuke1 ^^^ ?

Obviously, if the aircraft had it, then it has to be in the game as well. If it cuts down on visibility then code it so the 2nd crew member notifies you when something is behind you (just like the in-game tank crew loader when he loads) and have him actually open fire as well. Also more:

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Chomusuke1

[Pony51 6,571]

3 hours ago, Target1331 said:

Should probably be like La-5. Researchable backplate armor module. Most people would probably install it, but for AB & RB it would still give the option to gain a tiny bit of extra performance by uninstalling the plate, which for an underpowered aircraft like the Ju 87 might actually be worth a bit. For SB it becomes even more of a positive option as there next to the mini-performance gain, the rear view can be more important than that extra bit of armor.

 

Best regards,

Phil

 

Optional module is an idea!

 

2 hours ago, Chomusuke1 said:

Obviously, if the aircraft had it, then it has to be in the game as well. If it cuts down on visibility then code it so the 2nd crew member notifies you when something is behind you (just like the in-game tank crew loader when he loads) and have him actually open fire as well. Also more:

 

 

10mm, that is one!

Hopefully it will be enough.

 

All because is has it as retrofit does not mean is has to be in game!   But Phils idea sounds good, what you think?

[Manulslayor 2]

6 hours ago, Pony51 said:

But Phils idea sounds good, what you think?

 Yes from what i could find the plate was anything but standard. So it would make sense being researchable. Historicaly as well as gamplay wise. 

[Pony51 6,571]

noted

[Chomusuke1 1,217]

19 hours ago, Manulslayor said:

the plate was anything but standard

Then it would not be mentioned especially in an official Ladeplan. I think you intended to say retrofitted

[Pony51 6,571]

Info is a little lacking, but good enough.

Will file it soon (went though some backlog)

[Pony51 6,571]

 

 

After some study the info is only for the R series (2 in game), and I can find plenty of images for the R.

The B-2 notes load without armor, but not with.

 

Did the B-2 have armor? I do believe it did as retrofit, but that is a guess.

I will make 2 reports.

[Target1331 3,054]

According to Squadron Signal's (they are sitting up near Dallas btw in Carrollton) "Ju 87 In Action" book the Ju 87 R was actually pretty much a B-series:

 

Anyway here a few pictures from that book that show some solid plate between pilot and gunner on what are labelled B-series Stukas:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

Also the schematic that @Chomusuke1 shows with the 3 armor types is from the same book.

 

Best regards,

Phil

Edited May 31, 2020 by Target1331

[Pony51 6,571]

5 minutes ago, Target1331 said:

According to Squadron Signal's (they are sitting up near Dallas btw in Carrollton) "Ju 87 In Action" book the Ju 87 R was actually pretty much a B-series:

I visited them once.

 

They are very good source.

The Armor is some kind of kit, but cannot find what its name is.

[Pony51 6,571]

On 28/04/2020 at 12:48, Manulslayor said:

Ther is no information on the armour thiknes joust that the aded weight of the armour is 130 kg which would equal about 1,8m x 1,8m x 5mm steel plating.

 

It is actually 135kg of armor, and is in several locations not just behind pilot (also gunner too).

5 plates of armor, armored seat (original, and an armored turret ring.

 

Could use more data for this.

[Target1331 3,054]

So far impossible to find exact weight, dimensions etc..., though I have found a superb picture of the plate finally, showing the basic dimensions pretty well:

Spoiler

Also found out the plate is actually a conversion kit: Umrüstbausatz 3

Quote

Sub-denominations were attributed - Umrust-Bausatze, or 'u' - for the equipment of the Ju 87s: U-2 for a more effective radio; U-3 for armoured panel and roll bar in the cockpit; U-4 for skis instead of the wheels and the tailwheel. These sub denominations were added to the original ones, e.g. Ju 87B2/U-3.

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Ju-87/Ju-87B.html#180

Same source where I found the picture above. Pretty solid site showing ton of sources at the bottom. I've ordered one of them (Erfurth, Helmut  - Black Cross Vol.5 - Junkers Ju 87).

 

Here a book source also stating the U-3 kit, though it mentions it for the B-1:

Quote

[...] the B-1/U3 with extra armor protection; [...]

https://books.google.com/books?id=ayoncdaxYkQC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=Ju+87B-2/U-3&source=bl&ots=rSMMgfGrWP&sig=ACfU3U2HilRwO4jNEHvg8EO7M7ucy_HEMg&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjF2pG7p-bpAhWV_J4KHS5nCUYQ6AEwEnoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=Ju 87B-2%2FU-3&f=false

 

Edit, another book source stating the U-3 kit with the B-1 (pg. 67), but also that they were available to the B-2 (pg. 69):

Quote

U-3 - With additional armor [then on pg.69] B-2 - U-1 / U-2 / U-3 / U-4 / Trop - similar to B-1 series

https://books.google.com/books?id=g3lbCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=Junkers+Ju+87+B-2+U-3&source=bl&ots=xJduSiEl8a&sig=ACfU3U16FNva7cy2YUjYGrLwdMJ8-keCyA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUrsPssObpAhVFs54KHadJCDcQ6AEwEnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Junkers Ju 87 B-2 U-3&f=false

 

Some other minor sources, though they do state references:

Quote

Various factory versions of this modification included Ju-87B-2/U2 with the improved radio station, Ju-87B-2/U3 with reinforced armour protection for use in a role of an attack aircraft and Ju-87B-2/U4 with a ski landing gear.

https://airpages.ru/eng/lw/ju87b2.shtml

Quote

A number of factory conversion kits, or "Umruest-Bausaetze", were created for the Ju 87B-2, resulting in several subvariant modifications:

• The "Ju 87B-2/U2" featured an improved radio.
   
• The "Ju 87B-2/U3" featured increased armor protection for the close-support role.
   
• The "Ju 87B-2/U4" featured ski landing gear for winter operations.

http://www.airvectors.net/avstuka.html

 

Best regards,

Phil

Edited June 3, 2020 by Target1331
Added another book source

[Pony51 6,571]

4 hours ago, Target1331 said:

found out the plate is actually a conversion kit: Umrüstbausatz 3

Fantastic work!! 

[Chomusuke1 1,217]

On ‎31‎/‎05‎/‎2020 at 17:35, Target1331 said:

"Ju 87 In Action" book

 

Did you fail to see this page in the book? (Page 20):

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Chomusuke1