french spaa GMC CCKW 353 vierling (quad 20mm flak 38)

[CaID 8,992]

i would like to suggest a vehicles using a American chassis, a German turret and built by France, the GMC CCKW vierling

 

 

this vehicles was built quickly right after the end of WW2 and was one of the first military vehicles that was unique to France and post WW2. the need of SPAA at the liberation of France wasn't much actual anymore as the Stuka was already the past and the Allied fighters was fighting over Germany at 50 against one or something like that. but France needed to have his own material and out of pride and in order to revive the french military industry, they wanted to get their own material as soon as possible and get rip of the dependence to the American industry. the 17th of June 1946 the EMA asked the STA to study a new close air-defense self-propelled gun, the prototype came out early in 1947 and and order of 35 vehicles was made the 13th march 1947.

 

with the falling of the 3rd reich, the German left a lot of more or less working material all over France, tanks, truck, rifles, artillery. many of those was damage, run out of ammo or fuel and just abandoned on the spot because the logistic and the advance of the enemy couldn't allow the materials to be brought back in the German retreat. amounts of those, the infamous 2 cm Flakvierling 38 who was a quad AA static gun. France had the 40mm who was a good medium range gun, but France had little close air-support gun aside from the old out-dated 13.2mm gun. the 20mm Flak 38 was a much more effective gun against low-flying aircraft and in quad mount it offer a much better suppressing fire than the 40mm gun. France had a large amounts of those static gun and a large amounts of multi-purpose truck, the merging was pretty obvious to for fill the french need.

 

the test conducted in early 1947 showed the Vierling (as it was named by the french) was having excellent mobility and good firepower. no surprise as the truck and the turret was well appreciated during WW2, one to be very mobile and reliable, the other one to have great firepower and excellent AA capacity.

 

The GMC CCKW 353 Vierling was amounts of the first serial production of the post WW2 french military vehicles. realized way before the AMX-13 and ARL-44, it came out of the quickly reorganized military factory in 1947. in total, a surprising number of 35 of those vehicles was quickly modified in factory and saw a limited service in the french army. built in 1947 in small mass production then, nothing, those vehicles seem to had been forgotten and disappeared like if it never existed. aside of this simple photo coming out of an awesome french book, there is little evidence of the vehicles itself. it seem the vehicles was simply reverted into cargo version or just scraped just after the end of the war. it's true, France had little used for the 20mm Flak 30/38 guns, they mostly liked the MG 151/20 as AA gun who used smaller cartridge and had little penetration. one of my own theory, was the ammo supply was making it complicated for the logistic and they needed to make it more standard and got rip of the caliber that was not having need. the AMX-12 was under-development (later became AMX-13) and the SPAA version of this light tank was going to use the MG 151/20 and not the Flak 38, that seem to indicate the MG 151/20 was chosen over the Flak 38 as AA gun. serial tank also show MG 151/20 as AA defense gun as late as the mid 50s.

 

Specifications
Mass	Est. 10 tons
Length	270 1⁄8  in (6.86 m)
Width	88 in (2.24 m)
Height	93 in (2.36 m) to cab 109 1⁄8  in (2.77 m) overall
Crew	probably 5 (driver, commander, gunner, 2x loader.)
Armor	i assume, 7mm gunshield like the Flakpanzer 38
Main armament	4x 20mm Flak 38
Secondary armament	you want even more!!!
Engine	GMC 270 straight-6 91.5 hp (68.2 kW) at 2,750 rpm [1] or 104 hp (78 kW) at 2,750 rpm [2]
Power/weight	? / tonne
Transmission	5 spd. x 2 range trf. case
Suspension	Beam axles on leaf springs
Ground clearance	?
Fuel capacity	40 US gal (150 l)
Operational range	300 mi (482 km)
Maximum speed	45 mph (72 km/h) but likely to be a bit less due to the extra weight

source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_cm_Flak_30/38/Flakvierling

https://www.dday-overlord.com/en/material/vehicles/gmc-cckw-353

https://world-war-2.wikia.org/wiki/GMC_CCKW_353

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMC_CCKW_2½-ton_6x6_truck

 

the order to build the GMC vierling (primary souce)

Spoiler

 

this book (Les Vehicules Blindes Francais 1945-1977) page 185

Spoiler

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by CaID

[Miki_Hoshii 2,449]

Open for discussion.

[CaID 8,992]

3 minutes ago, Miki_Hoshii said:

Open for discussion.

sorry for making you do twice the work, i was trying to come out with both suggestion at the same time

[Miki_Hoshii 2,449]

7 minutes ago, CaID said:

sorry for making you do twice the work, i was trying to come out with both suggestion at the same time

Don't worry about it, it wasn't a bother at all. Its bit neat seeing obscure vehicles like this one even if I don't play France.

[CaID 8,992]

4 minutes ago, Miki_Hoshii said:

Don't worry about it, it wasn't a bother at all. Its bit neat seeing obscure vehicles like this one even if I don't play France.

especially since it's a serial production and saw a bit of services.

 

France need love for the low rank, but the rank 3-4 aren,t bad. the ARL-44 is having a real killer gun and the auto-loader make the AMX-13 and Lorraine very good tanks. i just feel like there would be more players if the french tree had his real potential shown, there is almost as much potent french tank than there is in German, American and Russian tree. they only lack of original late WW2 vehicles.

Edited October 11, 2020 by CaID

[Milocat 4,848]

+1, this is very cool and would make for a lethal SPAA, even if it is on a far more vulnerable platform than the Wirbelwind is.

[Solarmod 1,203]

+1, a faster, less armored, wirblewind for France sounds like fun to meme with.

[Abaddon75 460]

+1 but maybe we will need more pictures to convince

[CaID 8,992]

1 hour ago, Abaddon75 said:

+1 but maybe we will need more pictures to convince

Not sure if there is much need for more picture. The otswind II had no picture. The CCKW 353 vierling have one and the turret just like the car is well know and easy to find the reference to study separatly. From there you just need to make it like the picture show. It Should not be so far from reality and the guesswork is somehow about details that shouldn't affect much the vehicle. If neither the truck or the turret was common, It would be different but we are not facing that situation.

[corevino 308]

Would like to see you as a premium because I assume that this Flak 38 Flak 4 still offers more disadvantages and somehow it is half of captured weapons

[CaID 8,992]

16 minutes ago, corevino said:

Would like to see you as a premium because I assume that this Flak 38 Flak 4 still offers more disadvantages and somehow it is half of captured weapons

it's serial production, one of the few that saw active services. the P7T is a prototype, the AMX-13 DCA 40 is a prototype, the CCKW 353 AA was built by USA, why the Vierling should be premium while there is so much vehicles that is even less original, and if we just consider the armament to be un matching for a research line, then the M19, M42, AMX 13 DCA 40, GMC CCKW 353 AA, R3 T20, Crusader AA Mk I and the falcon should be move to premium, they all used guns that is originally from another nation who is also in the game.

 

the entire turret of the R3 T20 was french, the gun was originally named HS 820 Hispano Suiza was been buy by Oerlikon, it was designed for french services arnored car and light tank

Edited October 12, 2020 by CaID

[FouManchou 2,463]

+1 but hopefully it won't receive HVAP like the other german 20mm cannons. An SPAA should be about controlling the airspace, not the ground. Plus, normal AP is enough to defend it against M18.

[SpacialSonic777 125]

France is a rare nation can have so many AA Irl but still dont here in game.

+1 for that Spaa GMC CCKW flakwind.

Is a big meme for france,

France using stuff Spaa like M16, crusader AA because WW2

Also france can have the Amx 10 with 20mm or like i see the HS 820 / Oerlikan @CaID ♥.

And In high rank France have the Amx 30 Dca, and irl with the bitube 30x2 also use in many ways, in Amx 13 and Amx 30 with radar or not.

Is technicly 8 AAA france can have.

 

 

[CaID 8,992]

37 minutes ago, SpacialSonic777 said:

France is a rare nation can have so many AA Irl but still dont here in game.

+1 for that Spaa GMC CCKW flakwind.

Is a big meme for france,

France using stuff Spaa like M16, crusader AA because WW2

Also france can have the Amx 10 with 20mm or like i see the HS 820 / Oerlikan @CaID ♥.

And In high rank France have the Amx 30 Dca, and irl with the bitube 30x2 also use in many ways, in Amx 13 and Amx 30 with radar or not.

Is technicly 8 AAA france can have.

 

 

France can get way more than 8 SPAA, But 8 could be a good number to start with. The Type 45 with the 20mm oerlikon, the gmc veirling, the game cckw modified in indochina and the AMX-13 DCA 30 Should be added as it had more than the prototype done. After what we have the SAM vehicles who have more than enough variants that saw a production and services, the Roland, the Crotal, the Mistral. Once those are covered, we would have a pretty good AA line and the new addition would mostly be to add meat in it. I would love the AMX 10 TTB and Type 23U AA along with the AMX VCI M45 But i have some doupt about the LVT A 4 Bofors AA Capacity, i always wonder if the gun rcan raise high enough to be a SPAA

[eleks12 1,079]

+1

[thegoldenball 229]

+1, to 3.3 with HVAP (easier to kill with MG than Wirbelwind), 3.0 without (it can't really go lower because of its AA power)

[CaID 8,992]

Not sure if it need the PzGr.40, i do not know if they had any in hand and i am supporting the PzGr.40 to be remove from the Flak 30/38 guns belt. So no AA should get it.

 

I would not be double standard on this point.

Edited October 15, 2020 by CaID

[Solarmod 1,203]

8 hours ago, CaID said:

Not sure if it need the PzGr.40, i do not know if they had any in hand and i am supporting the PzGr.40 to be remove from the Flak 30/38 guns belt. So no AA should get it.

 

I would not be double standard on this point.

I really agree with this, they're a menace, especially at low tier. This type of ammunition was incredibly rare (if memory serves) and it teaches players to use SPAAs as anti tank vehicles, instead of their intended purpose.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Solarmod
Clarified my words.

[CaID 8,992]

18 minutes ago, Solarmod said:

I really agree with this, they're a menace, especially at low tier. This type of ammunition was incredibly rare (if memory serves) and it teaches players to use SPAAs as anti tank vehicles, instead of their intended purpose.

Thanks for the support. Yet this suggestion was made in the heart of the German Bias. A lot of opposition came up with nearly no argument if not for the SPAA need self protection. Like if they didn't know they have AP round as well

[Abaddon75 460]

And if German get grumpy because of that there is their own version of it :

open

protected (just a bit more) :


EDIT: I found also that thing bu I can't identified the guns and I don't know what nation did that :

Edited October 21, 2020 by Abaddon75

[CaID 8,992]

7 hours ago, Abaddon75 said:

 

EDIT: I found also that thing bu I can't identified the guns and I don't know what nation did that :

I believe it was a colector that create his own technical SPAA. I do not think it was used by any nation on a CCKW 353. And the markage is clearly USA of WW2. 

 

Its a Vladimirov KPV in quad mount ZPU-4

They are 14.5mm and in service since 1949

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPV_heavy_machine_gun

 

 

While been looking awesome i do not think it have his place in the game. Its a simple toy of some collector. Note the gun is not permanantly attached. It was probably just put there for the show

Edited October 22, 2020 by CaID

[CaID 8,992]

i had found a primary source proving the GMC CCKW 353 Vierling was ordered by the french army as transitional material for waiting the development of SPAA tank who was based on the AMX-13. the CCKW Vierling was then a transitional vehicles at the same title as the ARL-44. it is the proof it was a production vehicle and not just field modification. this should give this SPAA more right to get in the game than is the AMX-13 DCA 40 who remained without production or services

[N4CR_ 537]

Why is this not a thing yet? It's the perfect french rank 3 wirbelwind equivalent, a mini bratwurst lobbing baguette truck. I'd play the heck out of this thing!

 

edit: give it a bit better depression than the wirbelwind and it'll make a nicely balanced counterpart for the French.

Edited August 27, 2021 by N4CR_

[Arghail 1,220]

45 minutes ago, N4CR_ said:

Why is this not a thing yet? It's the perfect french rank 3 wirbelwind equivalent, a mini bratwurst lobbing baguette truck. I'd play the heck out of this thing!

 

edit: give it a bit better depression than the wirbelwind and it'll make a nicely balanced counterpart for the French.

This one is certainly nice, yet, there's another possibility that would be even better, IMO :

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/501796-somua-mcg-ab-140/

[N4CR_ 537]

1 hour ago, Arghail said:

This one is certainly nice, yet, there's another possibility that would be even better, IMO :

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/501796-somua-mcg-ab-140/

I find half tracks (german ones anyway) to be of no use, they have no more traction in the game vs what they would gain in real life, due to the grip nerfing mechanic..

So a truck would be faster in 80% of situations and more agile in all. And Rank 3 please. There is already rank 2 AA to progress to this one from. 

Give it the Pzgr.40 like the wirbelwind if it's the OP truck and put it at 3.7.