german spaa 25mm zwilling schiffsflak auf LKW W50 (IFA W50 2M-3)

[CaID 8,996]

 

i would like to suggest one of the rare unique East German vehicles. the 25mm-zwilling-schiffsflak-auf-LKW-W50, or let's call it the IFA W50 2M-3 for short. but if it's added i want to hear Bruce say it in one of the shooting range episode.

the IFA W50 2M-3 is a unofficial short name for this vehicles as we have to admit, no non-German can really say his full name. but it's describing it accurately. this is a East German IFA truck, the model W50 to be precise. mounting the 2M-3 Naval turret. the truck was a real East German truck built since the mid 60s. the truck was a heavy cargo capable to carry up to 9.8 tons but the normal payload was 5.2 tons which is already more than most truck of his kind (often having 2 to 4 tons of playload). this truck was also export and can still be found in working condition all around to world. it was used by the East German army but also used as cargo truck for civilian purpose such as business and farm truck. it weight 4.6 tons and is powered by a 4 KVD 14,5/12 SRW  of 110 hp giving a top speed of 83 km/h

the turret is a 2M-3 Naval turret used by the soviet fleet as AA weapons. it entered into service in 1953 and was armed with two 25mm 110-PM L/79 auto-cannon with a RoF (for the long recoil one) of 450 Rounds by minutes for each gun, but the Ga-operated one is 600 rounds by minutes. as it happen, the 2M-3 use the gaz operated gun which make it have a total RoF of 1200 round by minutes (if continuously feed). the turret is armored with 10mm all around, but this is a open-top and the gunner is partially exposed by a opening on the front at the left of the gun. it required only 1 men to operate the gun but in standard use, there is also a 2nd men as loader. the weapons use 25x218 mm round that is available in many different type. HE, HE-I, HE-T, AP-T. the average velocity between 900 to 910, it report a penetration of a bit over 42mm but according to Gaijin calculator, it could reach 55mm with the same specification. There is a 2M-3 turret on one of the russian ship, it show 53mm of penetration at 100m. the gun is feed by a belt of 65 rounds for each guns, for a total of 130 round by reload. the turret have an elevation of -10º/+85º, a 360º transverse and a turning speed of 40º/sec using the hydraulic control, or 15º/sec manual. the elevation speed is extremely fast with 70º/sec using the hydraulic control and 25º/sec using the manual system. it naturally will have a annoying blind-spot on the front because of the cab obstruction. the total weight of the turret is 1515 kg.

 

As for the history. there is very little know. the conversion was made in the end of the 60s by the GDR. it appear to be related by the need of a SPAA for the GDR in Nicaragua. the turret origin is allegedly either coming from the reserve stock, as USSR stocked many of those turret amounts of other to convert civilian boat into military boat in case of war. but other theory say it was coming from a decommissioned boat that was going to the scrapyard. for what is count, the conversion was indeed done and the markage is clearly the one of the GDR. as many suppose the IFA W50 2M-3 is possibly the ZSU-25-2 that was developed in 1945 and for who, no picture is know, this last theory is not realistic, as the truck came into production in 1965, the turret in 1953, the east Germany in 1949, there is no way the picture could come from 1945. the Nicaragua revolution was supported by USSR but as Russia was having his handful with the Angola and his Afghanistan, the GDR was very present to support Nicaragua with humanity and military supply, this vehicles seem to had been used as coastal support against aircraft and landing craft. it was not used in fight, it was not even used by Nicaragua it seem to be only used to protect the establishment of the GDR in Nicaragua.

In-game, this vehicles will have a extremely high rate of fire and make it a excellent AA weapons. despite to have no armor of the cab, the turret have some armor and this very turret is extremely nimble. i believe this vehicles could go Rank 4, just after the Ostwind II in his quality of cold-war vehicles. it could fair well enough as a BR 4.7 to 6.0 SPAA and even if the BR could be lower, i believe the Ostwind II shall remain before it. it would give a fast fire alternative to the German SPAA for those who prefer the Windelwind over the Ostwinds.

Specifications
Mass	4.6 tons for the truck 1.5 tons for the turret
Length	6.53 m
Width	2.50 m
Height	2.60 m (without turret)
Crew	4 (Driver and commander in the cab. gunner and loader in the rear)
Armour	10mm on all turret side Assumly 10mm on the turret mount
Main armament	2x 25mm 110-PM L/79 auto-cannon (gaz operated)
Secondary armament	none
Engine	4-cylinder 4 KVD 14,5/12 SRW Diesel water colled 110 PS (81 kW) at 2200/min
Power/weight	18.3 hp/ton
Wheelbase	3200 mm
Ground clearance	300 mm
Fuel capacity	100 l
Operational range	unknow
Speed	83 km/h, truck empty

 

Source, truck

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IFA_W_50

Source, turret

https://def-tech.org/en/service/korabelna-artylerijska-ustanovka-2m-3/

https://weaponsystems.net/system/474-25mm+2M-3

Source Weapons

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_25mm-79_2m-3.php

source, usage

https://strangernn.dreamwidth.org/tag/гдр?style=light&tag=гдр

Edited October 27, 2020 by CaID

[Miki_Hoshii 2,449]

Open for discussion.

[Guest]

Very interesting! I'm all for East German vehicles, especially if they aren't copy-paste Soviet machines.

[Your_delasre 16]

I think we even have the turret on one of the later soviet ships (or something similar)

 

also it would find a place among other NVA vehicles (+ germany needs its postwar AA).

[CaID 8,996]

8 minutes ago, Your_delasre said:

I think we even have the turret on one of the later soviet ships (or something similar)

 

also it would find a place among other NVA vehicles (+ germany needs its postwar AA).

Some rank 2 or 3 boat, just before the cruiser at the right.  yes. 

10 minutes ago, CobraKingII said:

Very interesting! I'm all for East German vehicles, especially if they aren't copy-paste Soviet machines.

100% unique german use. The turret is totally soviet but the russian or any other never mounted it on land vehicles as far i know.

 

I found it as i studied yhe russian SPAA. Some through they had found the mythical ZSU-25-2 of who i found no photo

Edited October 19, 2020 by CaID
Spealing correction

[Milocat 4,857]

+1, would be a neat SPAA to get for the mid tiers.

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

Absolutely yes, this would be a great tech-tree SPAAG! +1

[Cpt_Jack_Irons 464]

+1 We need more SPAA Trucks in the game, also this thing looks like it would be fun to play

Edited October 19, 2020 by Cpt_Jack_Irons

[Tornado_Matty01 21]

YES! WE NEED THIS!

[Solarmod 1,204]

+1, stuff like this deserves a place in game. East Germany deserves some fun unique vehicles.

[CaID 8,996]

Just checked the russian fleet. There is a 2M-3 turret on one of them. The armor is 10mm and the weapons penetration is 53mm @ 100m. It make it a fairly good SPAA with some TD capacity, still better than the Ostwinds but not as good as the pzgr.40. Above 500m it will perform better than the 20mm. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by CaID

[Zombificus 793]

YES YES YES YES YES! 
 

Or, to put it more eloquently: I would love to see this in the game. An actually unique East German vehicle with a distinctive (hilarious) look? Sign me up! 
 

I think this would be best around 5.7-6.3; ideally more 5.7-6.0. I think it’s slightly better than Ostwind II, but very much worse than Kugelblitz, so it should be between them, but closer to Ost II than the Kugel. My reasoning is that this has decent penetration and great fire rate, which makes it about as good against tanks as Ostwind II (more AP, smaller calibre) and almost certainly better against planes, but worse than even a stock Kugelblitz for AP and weaker than both.

 

I’m also eager to avoid another R3 situation. This vehicle has two 25mms which penetrate as much at 100m as the R3’s 20mm does at point blank, and through their combined fire rate exceed the R3’s by 200 RPM. This would be just as capable of shredding tanks’ sides and rears as the R3, so we have to bear that in mind. On the other hand, while it is wheeled, it’s considerably slower — the speed for the unloaded truck is 83 kph, whereas the R3 races around at 114 kph. That’s already a 31 kph difference, and we know it’d be slower with the turret attached, so while this should be quite mobile I think we can rule out any Mariokart shenanigans.

What it comes down to for me is that this seems like it would be about as powerful at AA as the R3, and I don’t believe anything that good should be below 5.7. Keeping this higher up would also keep it more in the Cold War environment it really belongs in, and if Germany got some more DDR vehicles around 5.3-6.3 (like their unique PT-76K1) this would be a great AA to take along with them. 
 

I think this would be great fun, and just looking at it makes me smile. Upvoting this suggestion was the easiest decision I’ve made all year. I can’t wait to see it in the game! 

[CaID 8,996]

On 23/10/2020 at 01:34, Zombificus said:

YES YES YES YES YES! 
 

Or, to put it more eloquently: I would love to see this in the game. An actually unique East German vehicle with a distinctive (hilarious) look? Sign me up! 
 

I think this would be best around 5.7-6.3; ideally more 5.7-6.0. I think it’s slightly better than Ostwind II, but very much worse than Kugelblitz, so it should be between them, but closer to Ost II than the Kugel. My reasoning is that this has decent penetration and great fire rate, which makes it about as good against tanks as Ostwind II (more AP, smaller calibre) and almost certainly better against planes, but worse than even a stock Kugelblitz for AP and weaker than both.

 

I’m also eager to avoid another R3 situation. This vehicle has two 25mms which penetrate as much at 100m as the R3’s 20mm does at point blank, and through their combined fire rate exceed the R3’s by 200 RPM. This would be just as capable of shredding tanks’ sides and rears as the R3, so we have to bear that in mind. On the other hand, while it is wheeled, it’s considerably slower — the speed for the unloaded truck is 83 kph, whereas the R3 races around at 114 kph. That’s already a 31 kph difference, and we know it’d be slower with the turret attached, so while this should be quite mobile I think we can rule out any Mariokart shenanigans.

What it comes down to for me is that this seems like it would be about as powerful at AA as the R3, and I don’t believe anything that good should be below 5.7. Keeping this higher up would also keep it more in the Cold War environment it really belongs in, and if Germany got some more DDR vehicles around 5.3-6.3 (like their unique PT-76K1) this would be a great AA to take along with them. 
 

I think this would be great fun, and just looking at it makes me smile. Upvoting this suggestion was the easiest decision I’ve made all year. I can’t wait to see it in the game! 

Totally agree. Just to add the arrengement of the gun, one over the other. It look like nothing but it would actually help the accuracy when it come to try to hit something specifically. Such as the barrel of a tank treatening you. Instant of aiming a bit at the right of left, you aim higher or lower like if you adjust the range. That is making it better than side by side guns to my opinion

[OddPhenomena 1,015]

I found a picture of the mount, plus an alternative view of the truck on a google search. 

 

 

The source is here, at page 36-37.

 

 https://docplayer.org/40741858-Verlastete-und-gepanzerte-startanlage-erste-ausfuehrung-fuer-das-fallschirlllleuchtgeschoss-flg-5000.html

[CaID 8,996]

1 hour ago, Shamshael said:

I found a picture of the mount, plus an alternative view of the truck on a google search. 

 

 

The source is here, at page 36-37.

 

 https://docplayer.org/40741858-Verlastete-und-gepanzerte-startanlage-erste-ausfuehrung-fuer-das-fallschirlllleuchtgeschoss-flg-5000.html

very nice, we have it is a bit different angle. i will add this photo in the topic

[eleks12 1,079]

+1

[hienapunk 1,065]

+1 as the star of an east German line.

[Chris4win 366]

+1 needs to be ingame. More SPAA is always welcome and it would be one of the few unique east german vehicles