Re-release the He 112 B-1/U2 (Hungarian markings and additional Romanian skin) and the He 112 B-2/U2 (Romanian markings) into the Italian tree

[Connacht 219]

Currently, the Italian tree is hosting aircraft from Axis minors such as Hungary (Bf-109 G-2, Bf-110 G-4) and Romania (IAR-81C, S.M.79B, Hs 129 B-2, alternative skin for the Bf-109 G-2). 

 

Some of these planes previously were in the German tree. In the past year, they were added to the Italian tree following an accepted request in this forum. The entries in the German tree were discontinued and removed. Those who already bought them could keep them, but nobody can buy them in the future for Germany, only within Italy.

 

I own them and moreover I like the idea of deploying a full line-up of Romanian or Hungarian planes, it's like a tree-in-the-tree, or a sub-tree (update edit: a concept officially introduced when the South African branch was added to the British tree with Ixwa Strike). This can be done in arcade battles, but it is beautiful particularly for sim battles, where historical significance is important.

 

However, there are two Romanian and Hungarian planes that are still currently hosted by the German tech tree, two variants of the He-112 that display markings from these nations. They are currently gift vehicles.

 

Since the developers already stated that any other vehicle from Axis minors in the future will be placed in the Italian tree, which thus can be considered to be officially gathering vehicles from Romania and Hungary, it is an obvious idea to re-release these two aircraft too.

 

N.1) He 112 B-1/U2

 

This is a premium Hungarian plane with an additional Romanian skin, it is accessible if you buy the plane with golden eagles (as I did), its current cost being 550 GE: https://wiki.warthunder.com/He_112_B-1/U2

This is really quick to implement: simply remove the premium from the German tree (those who already bought it will keep it) and add it again in the Italian tree. It would be comparable to the Bf-109 G-2 (which has been already re-released in the Italian tree), that is, it is listed as a Hungarian plane but it has also a secondary Romanian skin.

 

 

 

There is a caveat that was mentioned in the comments: this premium vehicle is also part of the beginner's pack for Germany. If the He-112 B-1/U2 is removed from Germany, then the beginner's pack too would be removed, requiring to create a new pack with a different aircraft. With what would we replace it, if we move the plane to the Italian tree? Some proposals have been made in the comments of this topic.

One is to introduce a new Bf-109 variant, such as the Bf-109 C or the Bf-109 D. It wouldn't require much modifications to the model, nor a lot of work for the skin. I think this solution would be highly popular among players and might lead to additional purchases. The Bf-109 C in particular was rarer than the D and so it would be more justified as a premium, while the D might be more indicated for the regular tree. I'm all for adding new Bf 109 variants in any case. One user proposed the unique radial B-109 V-21, but I don't know much about it.

Another possibility is the Macchi C.202, which was present in the German tree before the introduction of the Italian tree. After that moment, it was hidden from the tree for those who didn't unlock it: https://wiki.warthunder.com/C._202_(Germany)

Why this plane? Because it has a unique historical Luftwaffe camouflage that is NOT currently present in the Italian version, as Germany operated this aircraft. The Italian skin for the German C.202 could be removed, leaving only the Luftwaffe skin which would remain unavailable to the Italian C.202. It would be like many other vehicles that are present in-game among different nations (many examples). This would be really immediate to implement: the aircraft is already there, with a perfectly matching skin, it is just hidden. No effort at all.

 

N.2) He 112 B-2/U2

 

This is a gift Romanian plane that can be bought on the marketplace or found in the level V warbond crates: https://wiki.warthunder.com/He_112_B-2/U2

This one might require a further decision by the developers about the terms of re-release. A duplicate for the Italian tree could be directly put in the marketplace, like before, although there might be a bit of confusion for players that would see on sale the same plane twice for two different nations until the earlier version goes sold out.

Alternatively, it could become the prize of an event. But it could also be re-released as a normal premium that can be bought with golden eagles and I think this would be the best and most simple solution.

Although rare, it is not unprecedented for Gaijin to put a gift vehicle into another tree without passing through the marketplace (the most noticeable case is the M8 Greyhound which is currently both a gift vehicle for USA and a... free reserve in the regular tech tree for China!) and I suppose this would be the case.

 

 

With those planes being introduced in the Italian tree, we could deploy a full line-up of 5 Romanian planes before having to buy another crew with golden eagles, while Hungarian planes would increase to 3. It would be also preliminary for future new vehicles from Romania and Hungary, both air and ground ones, as there would be a concrete presence in-game and perhaps more players will ask for new additions.

 

Besides, Italy currently lacks low level premiums: tier I only has Marcolin's C.R.42 CN (plus the marketplace C.R.32 bis), tier II only has the Re.2001 gruppo 22 and the aforementioned IAR-81C. Compare this with the several premiums in the German tree. Adding two more premiums would bring a bit more variety in the Italian tree.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Connacht
Updated with proposals for the replacement in the beginner's pack + formatting

[ItssLuBu 1,802]

Approved and open for discussion. 

[Milocat 4,855]

+1 for sure, just makes sense.

[Kulcsos12 1,081]

+1

With this, Hungarian ans Romanian vehicles (tanks and ships too) will be easier to add to the game.

[FAA825_Kent 81]

Question, what if I've got crew crew aced and I've got full crews in my Italian lineup. I'll loose SL just because.

[Connacht 219]

3 minutes ago, FAA825_Kent said:

Question, what if I've got crew crew aced and I've got full crews in my Italian lineup. I'll loose SL just because.

 

I honestly don't understand your point. o.o

[Medieval_Tanker 32]

Does this help towards the individual tech trees of these nations?

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

One problem with part of this idea: the He 112B-1/U2 in Hungarian markings is one of the starter pack vehicles for the Germans, so what would you replace it with?  The obvious answer might be Flegel's Bf 109A, but that plane honestly isn't all that n00b-friendly (and would require either the starter pack be decreased in price or more GE or premium time being added to it to compensate for getting an objectively worse aircraft).  I guess they could make the Bf 109E-7/U2 a regular aircraft, but that means annoying everybody who has them for sale on the Gaijin market (and people who had to buy into the Thunder League to get it the first time around).  Other options like the Ar 196A-3 and Fw 189A-1 don't really fly like anything else in the tree and kinda defeat the purpose of a 'starter' plane (and, again, aren't particularly n00b-friendly).  I think something new would have to be added in its place.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Z3r0_

[Rockybrown 61]

On 15/11/2020 at 05:01, Z3r0_ said:

One problem with part of this idea: the He 112B-1/U2 in Hungarian markings is one of the starter pack vehicles for the Germans, so what would you replace it with?  The obvious answer might be Flegel's Bf 109A, but that plane honestly isn't all that n00b-friendly (and would require either the starter pack be decreased in price or more GE or premium time being added to it to compensate for getting an objectively worse aircraft).  I guess they could make the Bf 109E-7/U2 a regular aircraft, but that means annoying everybody who has them for sale on the Gaijin market (and people who had to buy into the Thunder League to get it the first time around).  Other options like the Ar 196A-3 and Fw 189A-1 don't really fly like anything else in the tree and kinda defeat the purpose of a 'starter' plane (and, again, aren't particularly n00b-friendly).  I think something new would have to be added in its place.

One of the candidates could be the Dutch Fokker D.XXI, it is almost as fast and have 4x 7.7mm mg's which is relatively good. There is sadly little to no German fighter that could take it's place unless torpedo bombers or other aircraft could be implemented. One captured Fokker D.XXI could not hurt that much if the Dutch were to get their own tree.

 

+1 to the suggestion, it is better to collect all the Hungarian and Romanian planes in one so people can make full setups.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

19 hours ago, Rockybrown said:

One of the candidates could be the Dutch Fokker D.XXI, it is almost as fast and have 4x 7.7mm mg's which is relatively good. There is sadly little to no German fighter that could take it's place unless torpedo bombers or other aircraft could be implemented. One captured Fokker D.XXI could not hurt that much if the Dutch were to get their own tree.

 

+1 to the suggestion, it is better to collect all the Hungarian and Romanian planes in one so people can make full setups.

 

Maybe...but then Benelux Tree Project is also a thing, and if we were to add a Finnish-spec D.XXI I'd give it to the Swedes.

 

Honestly if it were up to me I'd probably stick a more obscure variant of a German fighter on there.  A good candidate would be the Bf 109D-3, which had similar armament to the E-3 but a weaker engine; it saw some front line use in Spain and Poland, then a bit more use in France and the Low Countries as a nightfighter through the first half of 1940, having been largely supplanted by the E model by then in other roles.  Its performance might still be a bit lacking next to the Emils, but having the cannons would make up for that.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Z3r0_

[Rockybrown 61]

2 hours ago, Z3r0_ said:

 

Maybe...but then Benelux Tree Project is also a thing, and if we were to add a Finnish-spec D.XXI I'd give it to the Swedes.

 

Honestly if it were up to me I'd probably stick a more obscure variant of a German fighter on there.  A good candidate would be the Bf 109D-3, which had similar armament to the E-3 but a weaker engine; it saw some front line use in Spain and Poland, then a bit more use in France and the Low Countries as a nightfighter through the first half of 1940, having been largely supplanted by the E model by then in other roles.  Its performance might still be a bit lacking next to the Emils, but having the cannons would make up for that.

I didn't know about that version of the Messerschmitt, it looks unique with the bigger oil cooler intake + it has 20mm's and 7.92mm's like the He 112 and it is almost the same in terms of speed and armament.

 

Edit: picture reference

Edited November 18, 2020 by Rockybrown

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

13 minutes ago, Rockybrown said:

I didn't know about that version of the Messerschmitt, it looks unique with the bigger oil cooler intake + it has 20mm's and 7.92mm's like the He 112 and it is almost the same in terms of speed and armament.

 

Edit: picture reference

 

Yep.  Also it was exported to a couple of countries so there's some options for skins (i.e. Swiss Air Force).

[cfracas 1,708]

On 15/11/2020 at 05:01, Z3r0_ said:

One problem with part of this idea: the He 112B-1/U2 in Hungarian markings is one of the starter pack vehicles for the Germans, so what would you replace it with?  The obvious answer might be Flegel's Bf 109A, but that plane honestly isn't all that n00b-friendly (and would require either the starter pack be decreased in price or more GE or premium time being added to it to compensate for getting an objectively worse aircraft).  I guess they could make the Bf 109E-7/U2 a regular aircraft, but that means annoying everybody who has them for sale on the Gaijin market (and people who had to buy into the Thunder League to get it the first time around).  Other options like the Ar 196A-3 and Fw 189A-1 don't really fly like anything else in the tree and kinda defeat the purpose of a 'starter' plane (and, again, aren't particularly n00b-friendly).  I think something new would have to be added in its place.

Easy answer : Bf109C-3

 

EDIT :

or even easier : a German skin for He112 B-1 (maybe one from Industrieschutzstaffel)

https://live.warthunder.com/post/502769/en/

Edited November 18, 2020 by cfracas

[_Pixy 196]

+1

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

On 18/11/2020 at 03:19, cfracas said:

Easy answer : Bf109C-3

 

EDIT :

or even easier : a German skin for He112 B-1 (maybe one from Industrieschutzstaffel)

https://live.warthunder.com/post/502769/en/

 

Or the Bf 109D-3, which I'd also suggested above.  The industrial defense skin would probably be the easiest way to go about this though.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Z3r0_

[Connacht 219]

Hey, thank you for your suggestions! The Bf-109 C and D versions are really some nice planes that I'd like to see in game. So, perhaps, this proposal could also lead to the introduction of some other tier I planes, which is really easy to do and would please many players (I personally really like low tier vehicles). I totally support your additional ideas. Thanks again!

Edited December 8, 2020 by Connacht

[cfracas 1,708]

On 17/11/2020 at 23:59, Z3r0_ said:

Honestly if it were up to me I'd probably stick a more obscure variant of a German fighter on there.  A good candidate would be the Bf 109D-3, which had similar armament to the E-3 but a weaker engine; it saw some front line use in Spain and Poland, then a bit more use in France and the Low Countries as a nightfighter through the first half of 1940, having been largely supplanted by the E model by then in other roles.  Its performance might still be a bit lacking next to the Emils, but having the cannons would make up for that.

The only problem of D-3, according to info I have found so far, is that it was only a planned version so we should find a photo of it to demonstrate Gaijin it existed.

On 08/12/2020 at 15:32, Connacht said:

Hey, thank you for your suggestions! The Bf-109 C and D versions are really some nice planes that I'd like to see in game. So, perhaps, this proposal could also lead to the introduction of some other tier I planes, which is really easy to do and would please many players (I personally really like low tier vehicles). I totally support your additional ideas. Thanks again!

The reason I would prefer C-3 (photo provided) to D-3 (photo to be found) is also on following table:

Basically it shows C version has a slightly better engine than D version (20hp if I remember well).

Moreover, it shows C war less common than D, justifying premium status (and C-3 is even rarer than C-1).

I took it from this book:

 

Note :

If C-3 would be considered too weak for BR 2.3, we would be forced to identify another plane... and at this point I think we should look for prototypes.

 

There is also another aspect to be considered :

in every starter pack Gaijin put a Tier 2 plane, while He112 is a Tier 1 plane with lower rewards compared to other starter packs.

This is just to say that by keeping He112 in German pack, Gajin should promote it to Rank 2 creating the need for more Rank 1 planes.

Replacing plane in starter pack would be instead a nice commercial choice to refresh sells creating "de facto" a new starter pack.

 

EDIT : I found another photo of Bf109 C-3

Edited December 10, 2020 by cfracas
Found another photo of Bf109 C-3

[cfracas 1,708]

 

Here is the possible skin for the Bf109C-3 to be put in the new starter pack, there are model kits on the market that always look at this specific werknummer plane : (W.Nr.1722)

 

EDIT :

And additional photos of Bf109C-3

Source : https://вфгумрф.рф/aviaciya/mister-shmidt.html

Source : https://www.aircon-miroslav.cz/2006/08/30/messerschmitt-bf-109-b-c-a-d/

Edited December 10, 2020 by cfracas

[Connacht 219]

On 14/11/2020 at 18:49, Medieval_Tanker said:

Does this help towards the individual tech trees of these nations?

 

Sorry, I didn't see your post previously. None of the He-112 would be purposeful premiums if one's goal is to grind the whole trees, because they are all tier I planes (and Germany has some premium bombers that are way more fitting for this). However, since the Italian tree is smaller than the German tree, they would allow to complete rank I & II a bit faster.

[Z3r0_ 4,128]

On 09/12/2020 at 10:35, cfracas said:

The only problem of D-3, according to info I have found so far, is that it was only a planned version so we should find a photo of it to demonstrate Gaijin it existed.

The reason I would prefer C-3 (photo provided) to D-3 (photo to be found) is also on following table:

Basically it shows C version has a slightly better engine than D version (20hp if I remember well).

Moreover, it shows C war less common than D, justifying premium status (and C-3 is even rarer than C-1).

I took it from this book:

 

Note :

If C-3 would be considered too weak for BR 2.3, we would be forced to identify another plane... and at this point I think we should look for prototypes.

 

There is also another aspect to be considered :

in every starter pack Gaijin put a Tier 2 plane, while He112 is a Tier 1 plane with lower rewards compared to other starter packs.

This is just to say that by keeping He112 in German pack, Gajin should promote it to Rank 2 creating the need for more Rank 1 planes.

Replacing plane in starter pack would be instead a nice commercial choice to refresh sells creating "de facto" a new starter pack.

 

EDIT : I found another photo of Bf109 C-3

 

From what I've read it did exist and was used in combat.

[cfracas 1,708]

9 hours ago, Z3r0_ said:

From what I've read it did exist and was used in combat.

Even if we find written proof or a photo to witness that, C-3 would still be a better candidate because C had better engine and low number production to better justify premium status than D.

Moreover, C-3 and D-3 have nearly identical appearance so visually it would not change so much.

[Connacht 219]

A possible suggestion for what plane add in place for the He-112 in the starter pack: the German C.202. It is already in game, although hidden, so it would require zero effort. It has a unique Luftwaffe skin, which could be made the sole skin for this plane, and which is not currently present for the Italian C.202, although I suggested here to add it back: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/533058-re-release-the-tricolor-luftwaffe-camouflage-of-the-previous-german-c202-now-hidden-for-the-current-italian-c202/

The only possible problem is that maybe new players want a true German plane, for this reason I still think that adding the Bf-109 C and Bf-109 D models would be better.

[Solarmod 1,204]

On 10/12/2020 at 10:32, cfracas said:

 

Here is the possible skin for the Bf109C-3 to be put in the new starter pack, there are model kits on the market that always look at this specific werknummer plane : (W.Nr.1722)

We could do the C-3, or we could do the V-21! 

BF-109 V-21 was a Radial Engined 109 theorized to have been designed so they could sell them to other nations and not dip into their engine supply for other countries. But either way, I'd love to see both of the He-112s I have in another tree, so I can have more DAKKA!

Edited September 12, 2021 by Solarmod

[Connacht 219]

Update: the Hungarian He-112 B-1/U2 is going to the Italian tree, being replaced by a premium Ju-87 in the German starter pack. I don't know news about the Romanian He-112 B-2/U2.

[leroyonly 4,311]

As the Romanian He-112 B-1/U2 has been re-implemented for Italy with update 2.17 Danger Zone,

 

Moved to Implemented Suggestions.