Sonderwagen M8

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

 

Very brief history-background:

 

In early 1950's Germany, the founding of a border-defence guard was considered and brought to allied attention. This force would act as military-police and border-guard, tasked with defending the west-German borders, as well as keeping the peace of the civil population.

 

With the increasingly perceived threat, coming from the Soviet union, Germany was eventually allowed to maintain a border-guard in form of the "Bundesgrenzschutz" (BGS), which was founded on the 16th March 1951. This was also seen as a good way to kickstart the future rearmament of west-Germany, which was eventually continued with the founding of the Bundeswehr in 1956.

 

Initially supposed to be 5.000 members strong, this number was later revised to be 10.000, and by 1955, the BGS was 17.000 men strong.

 

The BGS was armed with a lot of different equipment, ranging from both allied and axis WW2 equipment, as well as post-war gear.

The very first armoured and armed vehicles of the BGS were introduced in 1952, when Germany bough 60 M8 Greyhounds from America, which were promptly relieved of their 12,7mm M2 HMG and 37mm cannon, as well as the coaxial 7,62mm MG, the gun-sight and internal ammo-racks. The now renamed "Sonderwagen M8" (SW M8), meaning "Special Vehicle / Car M8", served first and foremost as a training vehicle, for the BGS. During these training-exercises, all SW M8's had their cannon-mount welded over with a steel-plate.

 

 

This was however not the final configuration of the SW M8, since in 1952 and 1953, plans were layed down and acted upon, to rearm the SW M8 with a single MG42, fitted into the original 37mm cannon position.

Most of the SW M8's stayed in this single MG42 configuration until their service ended in 1963.

 

 

In 1957, a rarer version of the SW M8 was introduced to the BGS, armed with the same MG42 in the turret, but, instead of the empty AA-MG ring, which was used to mount the 12,7mm M2HB, a semi-enclosed gun-shield with a 20mm HSS.804 cannon was fitted on top. Not many SW M8's were converted to have 20mm cannons, but they did exist and they did see service.

 

 

 

Specifications:

Weight: 7,89t

Length: 5m

Width: 2,54m

Crew: 4 (gunner, commander, driver, assisstant driver

Armament: 1x 20mm Hispano Suiza HSS.804 L/70 cannon, 1x MG42

 

Mechanically, the 20mm HS 804 seems to be only adjustable in elevation and depression, being otherwise fixed to the rotation of the main turret, which houses the MG42. I suspect this, as on every picture I have seen so far, the MG42 and HSS.804 are always pointing in the same direction, therefore it seems, that the turret rotates as one unit with the 20mm.

 

The ammo for the 20mm cannon used during service was armour-piercing incindiary and high-explosive tracer, overall, 25.000 API and 5.000 HE-T shells were bought between the 18th December 1952 and the 12th May 1953. (The BGS used the 20mm HS.804 before it was mounted on the SW M8).

 

 

Images:

 

 

http://www.bgs13-coburg1959.de/Kapp/media/HRUTH26.jpg

 

http://www.bgs13-coburg1959.de/Kapp/media/AmiSporth.jpg

 

http://www.bgs13-coburg1959.de/Kapp/media/hopf12.jpg

 

http://www.bgs13-coburg1959.de/Kapp/media/dag06.jpg

 

http://www.bgs13-coburg1959.de/Kapp/media/ellm14.jpg

 

 

 

http://www.bgs13-coburg1959.de/Kapp/media/M8Schreiegg.jpg

 

 

 

I personally think this little known vehicle could be a great addition to the German tech-tree as a rank 1 armoured car, perhaps under the Sd.Kfz 221, or even foldered with it. It would offer a very interesting post-war fighting-vehicle, with an arguably even more interesting history behind it, at least to me, since I am a huge fan of early post-WW2 Germany.

 

As a side-note, it was quite hard to find any concrete information regarding the mount that was made for the 20mm cannon, pictures are there, but details can often not be recognised very well, and I am not sure if a SW M8 with the 20mm mount still even exists somewhere, so if you have any additional informations, be it pictures or schematics, I would greatly appreciate it if you could DM them to me, or post them under this thread. Thanks!

 

Thanks for reading and have a good one

Sources:

WWII equipment of the Bundesgrenzschutz – wwiiafterwwii (wordpress.com)

11 BGS-Sonderwagen (beim-alten-bgs.de)

BGS-Fahrzeuge bei der Bundeswehr (panzerbaer.de)

Karl-Heinz-Kapp.de - Fahrzeuge-Hubschrb. (bgs13-coburg1959.de)

http://www.bgs13-coburg1959.de/Kapp/pages/bgs-memory/ausrFCstung/fahrzeuge-hubschrb..html

"under construction" (bundesgrenzschutz-online.de)

Der Bundesgrenzschutz in Braunschweig (grenzstreife.de)

Polizeimodell - die Modellbaugruppe des Deutschen Polizeimuseums - Panzer

VEKO Online - Geschichte - Hauptsache billig? (veko-online.de

Edited August 24, 2021 by Stuhlfleisch

[ItssLuBu 1,798]

Approved and open for discussion. 

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

On 12/01/2021 at 21:49, ItssLuBu said:

Approved and open for discussion. 

Oh wow, thanks a lot for the fast approval! 

Edited July 2, 2021 by Stuhlfleisch

[eleks12 1,079]

+1

[WayOfTheWolk 1,573]

The specific variant of the 20mm Oerlikon appears to be the postwar GAI-BO1.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by WayOfTheWolk

[Billygoatunicorn 178]

Yes for event vehicle if America gets their deserved M8 Greyhound in main Tech Tree. The event one has a funky weird MG pintle, so it'd be justified to put a typical one with the normal MG ring. Otherwise It'd just be yet another slap in the face for america after China gets it as reserve.

[Cpt_Jack_Irons 464]

-1 It's a Unique Vehicle but it is only Armed with a single 20mm Gun, idk where you could even put this in the German Ground Tree

Edited June 28, 2022 by Cpt_Jack_Irons

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

10 hours ago, Cpt_Jack_Irons said:

-1 It's a Very Strange Vehicle and it is only Armed with a single 20mm Gun, idk where you could even put this in the German Ground Tree

I believe an M8 with a 1000RPM 20mm and 42mm of pen would do quite well at 1.7 or 2.0. As for the position in the tech-tree, under the Sd.Kfz 221 would probably make the most sense, as a mid-point to the Sd.Kfz 234.

 

11 hours ago, WayOfTheWolk said:

The specific variant of the 20mm Oerlikon appears to be the postwar GAI-BO1.

 

Thanks for the clarification, I have updated the post!

Edited January 13, 2021 by Stuhlfleisch

[Solarmod 1,203]

+1, with the caviat of a tree version of the US M8 being added as well.

 

I'd love to see this as an event/premium.

[blockhaj 3,559]

The gun seems to be a 20 mm Hispano 404 variant in my eyes, considering the over barrel thing.

.

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

1 hour ago, blockhaj said:

The gun seems to be a 20 mm Hispano 404 variant in my eyes, considering the over barrel thing.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

I am unsure, so far I found one source stating, that it was armed with a HS.804, although both of them do look pretty similar.

[blockhaj 3,559]

1 hour ago, Stuhlfleisch said:

I am unsure, so far I found one source stating, that it was armed with a HS.804, although both of them do look pretty similar.

HS.804 was the export name for the british Hispano Mk.V so that would make sense. The barrel however is a new dedicated anti air barrel with a muzzle brake.

[blockhaj 3,559]

Another note of interest is that is has been reverted to using drum mags it seems. Default Mk.V's uses a belt feeder.

As for what magazines the Germans used post war is up for debate. Original french magazines had 60-90 rounds. Late war swiss mags had 130 rounds.

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

13 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

Another note of interest is that is has been reverted to using drum mags it seems. Default Mk.V's uses a belt feeder.

As for what magazines the Germans used post war is up for debate. Original french magazines had 60-90 rounds. Late war swiss mags had 130 rounds.

Huh, interesting. My guess would be that they used the Swiss 130 round magazines, judging by the size on the pictures and since Germany ordered the cannons from Switzerland.

[blockhaj 3,559]

Ok so i think i have found what model it is. Hispano-Suiza HSS-804 20 mm L / 70.

It was used in countries such as Yugoslavia under the name M55, although M55 specifically refers to the tripple config.

 

Looking at the mount here compared to the German one it seems the mount is an original Hispano design.

[blockhaj 3,559]

The tripple mount is called Hispano-Suiza HSS.630-3, meaning that the single mount probs has a similar name.

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

1 hour ago, blockhaj said:

Ok so i think i have found what model it is. Hispano-Suiza HSS-804 20 mm L / 70.

It was used in countries such as Yugoslavia under the name M55, although M55 specifically refers to the tripple config.

 

Looking at the mount here compared to the German one it seems the mount is an original Hispano design.

Thank you for your contribution, I'll specify the name!

[SturmWerwolf 793]

+1 Interesting low tier.

[Milocat 4,854]

+1 for me, this would be interesting as an event vehicle or similar, and it's acceptable to have it at tier I because even though it's a postwar vehicle it's based on a wartime chassis with wartime weaponry.

[Headnaught 502]

+1, this could be a good event or premium vehicle that would allow players who missed the "Flak Puma" to experience a similar sort of vehicle.