french fighter SNCASE SE.5000 Baroudeur

[CaID 8,996]

 

i would like to suggest an interesting plane light weight fighter/bomber, the SNCASE SE.5000 Baroudeur

 

the origin of the SE.5000 started in 1951 when the Air Ministry of France announced the requirement for a fighter/attacker capable of taking off and landing on small air-strip. to save money they didn't turn toward any aircraft builder in particular and at the same time, a standardization project from the NATO called NBMR-1 was seeking for a light weight strike fighter for a competition to become what would be the standard plane of this type in the NATO member of Europe. this competition came in the right time as it completely aligned with the air-ministry need. the Société Nationale de Construction Aéronautique du Sud-Est (SNCASE) decided to kills 2 bird with 1 stone and propose on both side the same plane. they decided to create a totally new plane who would meet the requirement of both at the same time. they them decided to built 2 prototype for the testing for both potential contract.

the design of the SE.5000 was been given to the engineer Stanislas Jakimiuzk. this engineer choose a rather risky but innovative uncommon design for this plane. this design was having for purpose to make this plane need as little take off and landing distance possible. for doing so, the engineer simply got rip of the landing gear completely and replace them by skids for landing a a rocket powered buggy for take-off. the skids was retractable and would only come out when the plane get near the ground. the buggy would be drop just after a few second fallowing the take off. this system give the plane excellent all terrain capacity and make it possible to safely land and take off on unprepared terrain (as long it was flat enough). aside the landing system, the plane was having interesting feature. the cockpit was small and had a Martin Baker ejectable sit who at that time was brand new. the sweep wing was high and had slip at the base for the air-intake. tail had high fin at almost the top of the stabilizer. but it was his all-terrain landing performance who earn him the nick-name of "Baroudeur" by the test pilot.

the first prototype was built in 1953. while the French air-force was very interested in the Baroudeur, the NATO requested to have a pre-series version for their test-flight. for this reason, the 2nd Baroudeur was rushed into modification to make it a a definitive version, from which study they could built a third plane to confirm the viability of the production and for satisfying the NATO request. the 2 first prototype was soon up-graded to the pre-series standard who received the designation of SE.5003. the test flight proven the plane could land as well on a sport field, than a farm crops, sandy beach, frozen lake or even rocky ground without damage. this plane seem to be a miracle answer for the military aircraft issue of requiring air-field. 4x hardpoints was installed under the wing for a capacity of 500 kg each. the planed suspended armament was to be mainly bombs but could eventually also carry rocket. the offensive armament was mounted on the plane and was including 2x 30mm cannon under the nose. while his flight performance seem comfortable, his high speed maneuverability was rather bad. the plane was also a step behind on the technological advance (which is natural as the NATO wanted a cheap plane). the French Air-force decided to order another plane which was the Dassault Super Mystere B.2, while the NATO decided to go for the Fiat G.91, Northrop N-156. at the end, despite of been a particularly innovative plane, this plane had no future. the program was cancelled officially in 1956 and the 3 pre-series plane was stored a few years in Villacoublay. then a few decades later they was used a target for the trainee pilot at Cazaux.

 

 

Armament

Spoiler

having 2x 30mm cannon under the nose is already a decent armament for a fighter of his time, but the SE.5000 and SE.5003 was also having suspended armament wich could reach a total of 2000 kg. the suspended armament was divided in 4 hardpoints under the wings with a maximum capacity of 500 kg. this suspended armament was to be mainly bombs, it is unknown if they ever planed to also carry rockets. with this armaments, the SE.5000 and SE.5003 would be a suitable plane for both air and ground battle.

 

Performence

Spoiler

the planes top speed could barely reach supersonic speed. with a different engine between the SE.5000 and SE.5003, the performance would be a bit different from the prototype and pre-series. while been comfortable in low speed, the plane was not suitable in high speed. it was reported to be slow to react and roll over in high speed.

 

Variants

SE.5000 - prototype of the plane, powered by a SNECMA Atar 101C turbojet, 27.6 kN (6,200 lbf) thrust. 2 built

SE.5003 - pre-series version, powered by a SNECMA Atar 101D turbojet, 29.4 kN (6,614 lbf) thrust. 1 new built, 2 conversion

 

General characteristics

• Crew: 1 (pilot)
• Length: 13.49 m (44 ft 3 in) ^[2]
• Wingspan: 10.00 m (32 ft 10 in)
• Height: 3.04 m (10 ft 0 in) on skids ^[2]
• Gross weight: 6,920 kg (15,256 lb)
• Powerplant: 1 × SNECMA Atar 101D turbojet, 29.4 kN (6,614 lbf) thrust

Performance

• Maximum speed: 1,140 km/h (709 mph, 616 kn)

Armament

• 2x 30mm cannon
• up of 2000 kg of suspended armament in 4 hardpoints.

 

source

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCASE_Baroudeur

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snecma_Atar

https://aviationsmilitaires.net/v3/kb/aircraft/show/1947/sud-est-se-5000-baroudeur

https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.php?aircraft_id=1406

https://www.avionslegendaires.net/avion-militaire/sud-est-se-5000-baroudeur/

http://www.airwar.ru/enc_e/fighter/se5000.html

https://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/BregeriePierre/10339.htm

Edited July 14, 2021 by CaID

[leroyonly 4,310]

Open for discussion. 

[Milocat 4,854]

+1 for sure, nice find and looks awesome.

[CaID 8,996]

42 minutes ago, Milocat said:

+1 for sure, nice find and looks awesome.

it was kinda in the preview of the amateur french air TT i draw a little while ago that you could have saw on discord

[DoxerWhite@psn 82]

+1

[Abaddon75 460]

The first time I saw this plane on internet I was kind of Meh about it, but now I'm all for it.

 

+2

 

Thx for this suggestion

Edited July 15, 2021 by Abaddon75

[AVROVULCANXH558 349]

This is quite a unique aircraft that definitely deserves a place in game. It reveals a design philosophy in the early-1950's that was thought to be the way forward, but that road was a dead end. 

 

The French have a lot of unique potential that has gone unnoticed, and this is probably the pinnacle of it. This would be a lovely jet-fighter, it's small size and low weight would make it a beauty to fly, and would make it similar to a Folland Gnat, another jet I adore.

 

Definitely a big +1 from me

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Very nice

Here are some more pictures with droptanks, bombs, T.10s and Matra 116 rocket pods :

Spoiler

Btw one is being restored IIRC

Edited December 31, 2021 by Cedjoe

[leCoucouDodu 114]

I would love an early jet to fill the gap in the French TT.

This seems the ideal candidate.

[Drasleon 226]

+1

[Warump 72]

What a crazy looking and interesting project, +1

[Drasleon 226]

Here the cokpit

This image (and the previous one) is taken from this document :https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5322636k/f26.item

Im not going to translate it: there are more of 10 pages.

However, there is an interesting detail on the story of this plane. Polish engineer John Jakimiuk worked on this plane. For those like me who didn't know it, it's the same engineer who led the program of PZL7,11,24 and 50 for Poland before the war. Like what, the world is small.

[Solarmod 1,203]

12 hours ago, Drasleon said:

Here the cokpit

This image (and the previous one) is taken from this document :https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5322636k/f26.item

Im not going to translate it: there are more of 10 pages.

However, there is an interesting detail on the story of this plane. Polish engineer John Jakimiuk worked on this plane. For those like me who didn't know it, it's the same engineer who led the program of PZL7,11,24 and 50 for Poland before the war. Like what, the world is small.

Ooh neat, I did not know that about the SE.5000. Thank you!

[Drasleon 226]

4 hours ago, Solarmod said:

Thank you!

You're welcome. After research, "John" is one nickname. This true name is Wsiewołod Jakimiuk .  

I would like to come back to this image:

16 hours ago, Drasleon said:

Here is my translation:

1 Valve Anti G

2 Depht position indicator

3 Reverser fresh air

4 Contact button

5 Direction position indicator

6 Reverser Cokpit

7 Warping position indicator

8 Buoy inflation control (or command)

9 Pressurization command

10 Defrost command

11 Gas command (throttle)

12 Telemetry command

13 Air-brakes command

14 Dropping command

15 Flaps command

16 Pressurized air inlet the cabin (entry point)

17 fuse box

18 Gyro gun sight

19 Rudder (or lifter) pedal

20 Rocket take off switch

21 Signaling inverter

22 « Pitot » heating switch

23 Dropping tank switch

24 High beam switch

25 Throttle control lockout

26 Landing gear command

27 Flaps command

28 Muscle sensation cylinders

29 Broom handle

30 Control unit I F F

31 Compass box «Gyrosin»

32 «Gyrosin»

33 Artificial Horizon

34 Anemometer

35 Flap D position indicator (D is probably for « Decollage » : Take-off in english)

36 Airbrakes position indicator

37 Variometer

38 Manometer

39 Cape selector

40 Speed loss indicator

41Accelerometer

42 Maximum speed indicator

43 Machmeter

44 Tachymeter

45 Altimeter

46 Galvanometer

47 Bend (or turn) indicator

48 Clinometer

49 Flowmeter

50 Fuel gauge

51 Receptor

52 Fuel indicator

53 Reverser « intercom » tanks

54 Security level indicator light

55 Tank indicator lights

56 cabin pressure warning light

57 B P Fuel indicator lights

58 trolley lock indicator

59 Speed control light

60 Pitch brakes warning light

61 Timepiece

62 Flap C position indicator (C is probably for «Combat»: Fight in english)

63 Landing gear signaling table

64 «Push button »

65 Landing gears indicator light

66 VHF control panel

67 Communication box

68 Battery switch

69 Generator switch

70 Disrupted generator indicator light

71 Voltmeter

72 Amperemeter

73 Starter security switch

74 Kerosene pump switch

75 Ventilation switch

76 Push starter

77 Fire indicator

78 « Spout » position indicator

79 Safety « spouts » indicator lights

80 Cabin pressure gauge (Manometer)

81 Altimeter

82 Cabin pressure warning light

83 Oxygen flow regulator

84 Emergency compass

85 Signaling manipulator

86 Canopy (or glass) control

87 Circuit breaker table

88 Night light contact rheostat (red, white, UV)

There are surely translation errors but i did my best. In any case, It could be of interest to simulation players and help developers to design the cockpit ( in the hypothesis or they would be interested in adding this plane in games).

[Drasleon 226]

Guys I don't believe it, while browsing the net, I found this

 

This plane had been under restoration for 14 years and I had never heard of it...WHY???????

Edited January 21, 2022 by Drasleon

[Arghail 1,220]

9 hours ago, Drasleon said:

Guys I don't believe it, while browsing the net, I found this

Well, it's certainly impressive work from those people to repair a unique prototype which was badly damage by training fire. It's not the only one in fact, I believe there is also a SNCASO 6020 Espadon that is being worked on in Toulouse as well. Not that we'll see anything new anytime soon, given how hard the pandemic has been overall on these kind of associations.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Arghail

[Drasleon 226]

9 minutes ago, Arghail said:

I believe there is also a SNCASO 6020 Espadon that is being worked on in Toulouse as well

...

Seriously?

 

That's a lot of information all at once. I'll have to take the emotional elevator back down. In any case respect to its associations.

[Abaddon75 460]

in terms of reproduction there is also an MB152 made by a groupe inside Dassault Aviation, plus a D550 in an association iirc, but that one was already late in its progression before covid hit, I hope te association still work on it would be amazing
 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Abaddon75

[Arghail 1,220]

1 hour ago, Abaddon75 said:

in terms of reproduction there is also an MB152 made by a groupe inside Dassault Aviation, plus a D550 in an association iirc, but that one was already late in its progression before covid hit, I hope te association still work on it would be amazing
 

 

You forgot the association recreating an Arsenal VG33 as well.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Arghail

[Abaddon75 460]

1 hour ago, Arghail said:

 

You forgot the association recreating an Arsenal VG33 as well.

oooohohoho I was not aware of that one! damn I would love to see a VG.33 flying

[Drasleon 226]

New sources of information here :

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k53266147/f1.item

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5326473d

 

Personally I have never seen a plane with so many funny anecdotes.

 

First, two interesting facts.:

-1: The aircraft suffered from Dutch roll: this was later corrected by John Jakimiuk who added a weight of 30 kg behind the driver's seat to modify the center of gravity.

 

-2: The plane could take off without the help of its trolley from the moment the runway was long enough. However, there was a problem when the plane was overloaded with weapons and gasoline.

 

At this point there are two solutions:

-The first was to hose down the runway with a garden hose to allow the skates to slide.

 

-The second solution is just hilarious: two mechanics were on both sides of the plane, each with one wing. There they alternately pressed the wings with all their weight (like on a seesaw) while the pilot applied the throttle. At that moment, "the plane, no doubt happy to be taken care of him , began to waddle on its skates like a duck and then took off".

.

 Then ,for those who are lucky enough to understand French, I invite you to read the testimonies of the test pilots.

For the others, here is my translation proposal:

 

For the testimony of Tito Malandi

 

Spoiler

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k53266147/f25.item

 

Flying a prototype always gives you a little flavor of adventure, although adventure seems to me a bad word in these circumstances . Even if over the years and technical progress the part of chance has diminished, the fact remains that it is necessary to put in the air this "for what" and make it this "for whom" .

In a way, giving life to what is no longer, today, "a frail assembly of wood and canvas".

That day, on the shoulders of a single individual weighs the heavy burden of not disappointing the impressive number of people known or unknown, very important or very modest, who have worked for years for the same purpose; see the S.E. 5000 fly.

 

And what was it this machine?

 

It would be relatively easy for me to tell you that it was a fighter single-seater, with a swept wing and an ATAR engine and that it weighed around 6 tons, but that is not my intention because it is technique and that you can still be found, perhaps, in specialized journals.

It was the result of the will of our CEO at the time, Mr. Georges Héreil, who was later named "the father of the Caravelle".

Starting from a very simple idea: the warplanes that we manufacture all over the world are dependent on cement runways and these runways are extremely vulnerable. So to what good to have aircraft if they are grounded for more or less long periods of time awaiting repairs. It is therefore necessary to have an aircraft which will be able to use summarily developed land.

This word, "briefly", will subsequently have interpretations which will not lack salt.

 

A good summary would be that it could use the 1939 runways which should have been at 1200 or 1300m. But these floors do not support the loads per cm 2 compatible with high pressure wheels and low pressure wheels are bulky and heavy, so you have to leave them on the ground, "White Bird" style, and land on skis, because skis, it's well known, slide on the slack.

 

From these ideas were born this plane and this trolley which were our concern and our reason for hoping.

If I had to qualify (and I will) this period, I would say that it was for all of us that of enthusiasm and good humor.

It took a good dose of both to wipe off the cold showers that wet all those who work "Off the beaten track". This is how Jacques Noetinger had titled a chapter of one of his books.

The enthusiasm came precisely from the feeling of freedom that we all felt, starting with me, that we weren't always surrounded by regulations, beacons, yellow lines that were white, on which you have to place your front wheel. Even if, inevitably, it was necessary to enter a shed, the path to get there could, sometimes, be strewn with wildflowers.

He could also hide formidable bumps under the tall grass that « led me the feeling to take serious kicks in the a.. » In my old age I tell myself that if I have trouble touching my feet with my hands, there is nothing surprising in that.

 

I had started in Istres with a test, with the "model", which my friends (those who are still alive) remember with emotion (and a strong desire to laugh).

Under the pretext of trying out the suspension of the trolley which, of course, had to be rustic, the Design Office had made a horrible "Thing" which was supposed to represent the characteristics of the final plane... and which was propelled by powder rockets.

My old friend Marchandeau had driven this assembly on the Persan-Beaumont field at a speed of 120 km/h and he had judged, rightly, that he could not continue on this promising path without obtaining a one-way ticket to visit « a granite pavilion ».

 

So this plane-buggy combination was taken to Istres and I brought it with an apocalyptic noise at 220 km/h which I found quite sufficient. But that was without counting on the Design Office, which had to ask itself the question of how the separation of the 2 aircraft and buggy would take place.

He was not the only one to wonder about this point which deserved all my attention but I was very far from suspecting what was going to follow.

 

"We're going to replace these wing stumps ridiculous by real plywood wings. There is already one depth and a direction and there will be ailerons and a retractable, or rather outgoing gear, and brakes and a badin, to summarize: all you need to take off, leave the trolley and land straight ahead because you will have a thrust of 1500 Kg for 4 seconds".

 

To tell the truth, I wasn't very motivated at idea on putting this device in the air, especially since my friends Littolff and Sarrail hadn't hidden from me that if I hurt myself and even more, they would be obliged to admit that it was normal.

But it was my first job as a constructor driver and it was hard for me to refuse.

I believe I was aware of the possible «waffle» because I remember asking to padded the cockpit and finding a LeO 45 tail wheel inner tube to insert between my buttocks and the seat cushion (there was, however, a cushion on seat).

 

All this can and must seem ridiculous today, but I remember that at the time we did not know simulators, electronic aids and that I had to perform maneuvers in a very short time, admittedly simple, but without prior training, in a painful sound environment and accelerations which were not negligible although without common with those supported today by our valiant successors.

 

It ended badly and I was lucky enough to think about getting the skids out (and they were out) because I crashed in a wagnerian sound... with the minister at the time looking on, for to crown it all, there was a minister... Absolute hapiness

Turcat, who knows me well, wrote in a most serious publication that I was completely bewildered next to the crushed monster.

I deny this information, because on the contrary I was upset and I remember having said to the minister "that for this type of job, it was Japanese pilots that had to be recruited"

For a few days I had the feeling that I had been beaten up and I told my wife (who did not believe me) that I had fallen from a stepladder.

 

I hasten to add that the plane behaved, by comparison, wonderfully well. It had flaws, but what plane didn't?

For example, he had "Dutch roll", that is to say that the badin pole at the end of his pointed nose described circles, small, but still awkward to adjust a shot. This will require a very important work to give it negative dihedral without convincing result.

It also had cable controls that could hold surprises.

We went through alternations of hope and disappointment but we kept, as I believe I said, good humor.

 

Our steps have taken us to new skies and beaches Atlantic, where the sea rises and downs, discovering at low tide the strip of sand where I put my courier. I don't think many pilots could read the test order:

Beginning of the track - across the Hôtel Morgane. End of runway - the diving board at the end of avenue du Général de Gaulle.

In this northern ocean it is well known that it is not often sunny like in Martigues and that the rising tide carries with it a kind of mist preventing departure to more aeronautical places.

And the wavelets come to lick the wheels of the trolley under the sorry eye of the head mechanic called "Tatave" who finds the situation intolerable and who suggests that I put the 01 to safety on the promenade by taking a judicious inclined plane. For this, it is imperative to gain momentum and I see myself pointing my Badin antenna in the dining room of the Hotel Morgane already mentioned above.Either way, it's going to be sporty. Saved by the gong, I see Mr. Nadot jump the perré like a young man, run towards me and inform me that a ray of light has appeared between here and St-Nazaire. God be praised. I take off in 3 or 4 decreasing headings and the trolley ends its course in the sea but my plane is safe and sound.

All this circus to meet the requirements of "various types of terrain".

I remember on this subject that I was asked to land on a motorway in Germany under the pretext that the Messers had used this cement tape.

I replied, naively, that if we compared the landing surface available on the motorways (even in Germany) and that of beet fields, the conclusion would be indisputable.

Because I could use the soft beet field where the landing was wonderfully short...but where the other planes got bogged down precisely because of the cm2 load.

 

Despite all these adventures, the tests continued and the defects were attenuating without disappearing completely and I managed to exceed Mach=1 (in a dive of course) and at the time there were not so many machines which made a bang-bang blow up on the ground; because it was the only way to be certain that the famous "sound barrier" was achieved.

That's what I was trying to do by aiming for the white and red checkerboard on the Istres runways without result and I admit that I was losing courage when I saw Turcat, his wife and children arriving one evening in a superb automobile and brandishing one of those big bottles of Champagne which are a pleasure to see.

One of his cousins who was in Fos in the afternoon, had heard the famous double bang and had telephoned André. The information taken that there was only me in the air. The conclusion was that I was aiming too high and the next time the target had to be Miramas.

Of course I was never one of those eagle-eyed hunters but I could do this "correction shooter" without too much difficulty expected if it was a few miles.

 

I have, again, a funny memory that relates to the famous "sound barrier". The English had made a film of it which, of course, I had not yet seen. We had joined Melun-Villaroche where we weren't bothering anyone and it was about joining Istres in flight.. This did not pose any particular problems but I had received the order never to lose sight of the ground from the altitude where the consumption allowed this raid.

So we came across one of those periods of rotten weather that characterizes the northern regions of our beautiful country for three weeks. It's a long time three weeks and even more for the people in charge of the buggy who were waiting for me at Istres.

It was, of course, on a Sunday afternoon that the clouds moved away from my route and that I landed on the pebbles of La Crau around 3 p.m. and it was quite naturally that no one was waiting for me there.

So I went on foot to find the people from the control tower who were kind enough to take me to the guard post (in a jeep). There was a working telephone there (this was surprising) and I was able to call a taxi (this was also surprising).

I was dressed in my anti-g suit of a pleasant spinach green color and that's how the taxi driver took me to the landlady of the buggy "chef".

Nowadays, when TV has broadcast Laverdure's adventures in space, everyone has seen young people dressed as cosmonauts, their eyes fixed on the blue sky, but that was not the case, far from it , at my era.

The chef and his assessors were at the cinema and guess what we saw at this cinema... precisely "The sound barrier".

I waited for the intermission and went up to the balcony passing a number of spectators who thought I was doing the animated commercial of the film to look for my guys.

I was amply repaid for my trouble by seeing their faces.

The addition of these small facts, each in itself rather funny, slowly opened my eyes and I, from then on, thought that this plane would never be accepted in our air force... and even in others.

It had been a long time since I knew that its performances were interesting and I had not waited for someone to demonstrate that you could gain altitude during a loop but I was doing this with a piece of stratus as a reference.

Why ? Cause I didn't feel right to risk it machine in a maneuver which could turn out to be dangerous and, moreover, unplanned.

The maneuverability was excellent but all this could not hide a certain instability making the sights delicate and then... it had no wheels.

Ah! If there had been wheels instead of skids, we could have considered sequels but if there were wheels, I wonder where we could have placed them.

 

Finally, if I remembered the war that I had fought and that I was

asked how I would view the use of these machines, I would inevitably end up pointing to a group of individuals, all patrol leaders, disreputable in discipline, able to disperse and regroup quickly from apple trees from Father Mathieu or pear trees from Madame Dugommier.

I can assure you that there are those famous pranksters out of which an outstanding chef can pull off great things. And in all this, where can the rules fit? That's just as well, because it's a war we're unlikely to see again. God be praised. The engines becoming more and more powerful, we had managed to do without the buggy for take-off and had acquired a certain autonomy in the evolutions on the ground. The buggy became an accessory that we could take in the air which did not fail to amaze the crowds.

We have to talk about the NATO competition where our machine was in outsider since it was understood that the winner would necessarily be the Fiat G 91. I remember this atmosphere and also that I broke down nervously because too much was being asked of me and I knew it was useless.

I would like to pay tribute to the whole wonderful team that used these machines and to mention the two flight mechanics who later died in air service: Pierre Crubillier and Marcel Hochet.

It seems to me worth remembering that these devices, five in number, did not kill anyone, and even never had serious breakdowns, which, for the era, deserves to be noted. It would be a way to pay tribute to the wonderful ground team that I loved, each of them, like a brother... and who returned it to me well.

Perhaps the reader will detect a tiny bit of bitterness?

No one is safe from it. Not even me whose epidermis was not yet armored to the test of criticisms not always justified and especially of the good words which were not, most often, of a refined taste.

The years have passed and I only have confused memories from which sometimes emerge (I wonder why) a very precise situation, a face or a sentence.

It is my little treasure and I thank the magazine Pégase for once again giving me access to it.

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Drasleon

[Cedjoe 5,482]

6 hours ago, Drasleon said:

New sources of information here :

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k53266147/f1.item

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5326473d

 

Personally I have never seen a plane with so many funny anecdotes.

 

First, two interesting facts.:

-1: The aircraft suffered from Dutch roll: this was later corrected by John Jakimiuk who added a weight of 30 kg behind the driver's seat to modify the center of gravity.

 

-2: The plane could take off without the help of its trolley from the moment the runway was long enough. However, there was a problem when the plane was overloaded with weapons and gasoline.

 

At this point there are two solutions:

-The first was to hose down the runway with a garden hose to allow the skates to slide.

 

-The second solution is just hilarious: two mechanics were on both sides of the plane, each with one wing. There they alternately pressed the wings with all their weight (like on a seesaw) while the pilot applied the throttle. At that moment, "the plane, no doubt happy to be taken care of him , began to waddle on its skates like a duck and then took off".

.

 Then ,for those who are lucky enough to understand French, I invite you to read the testimonies of the test pilots.

For the others, here is my translation proposal:

 

For the testimony of Tito Malandi

 

Hide contents

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k53266147/f25.item

 

Flying a prototype always gives you a little flavor of adventure, although adventure seems to me a bad word in these circumstances . Even if over the years and technical progress the part of chance has diminished, the fact remains that it is necessary to put in the air this "for what" and make it this "for whom" .

In a way, giving life to what is no longer, today, "a frail assembly of wood and canvas".

That day, on the shoulders of a single individual weighs the heavy burden of not disappointing the impressive number of people known or unknown, very important or very modest, who have worked for years for the same purpose; see the S.E. 5000 fly.

 

And what was it this machine?

 

It would be relatively easy for me to tell you that it was a fighter single-seater, with a swept wing and an ATAR engine and that it weighed around 6 tons, but that is not my intention because it is technique and that you can still be found, perhaps, in specialized journals.

It was the result of the will of our CEO at the time, Mr. Georges Héreil, who was later named "the father of the Caravelle".

Starting from a very simple idea: the warplanes that we manufacture all over the world are dependent on cement runways and these runways are extremely vulnerable. So to what good to have aircraft if they are grounded for more or less long periods of time awaiting repairs. It is therefore necessary to have an aircraft which will be able to use summarily developed land.

This word, "briefly", will subsequently have interpretations which will not lack salt.

 

A good summary would be that it could use the 1939 runways which should have been at 1200 or 1300m. But these floors do not support the loads per cm 2 compatible with high pressure wheels and low pressure wheels are bulky and heavy, so you have to leave them on the ground, "White Bird" style, and land on skis, because skis, it's well known, slide on the slack.

 

From these ideas were born this plane and this trolley which were our concern and our reason for hoping.

If I had to qualify (and I will) this period, I would say that it was for all of us that of enthusiasm and good humor.

It took a good dose of both to wipe off the cold showers that wet all those who work "Off the beaten track". This is how Jacques Noetinger had titled a chapter of one of his books.

The enthusiasm came precisely from the feeling of freedom that we all felt, starting with me, that we weren't always surrounded by regulations, beacons, yellow lines that were white, on which you have to place your front wheel. Even if, inevitably, it was necessary to enter a shed, the path to get there could, sometimes, be strewn with wildflowers.

He could also hide formidable bumps under the tall grass that « led me the feeling to take serious kicks in the a.. » In my old age I tell myself that if I have trouble touching my feet with my hands, there is nothing surprising in that.

 

I had started in Istres with a test, with the "model", which my friends (those who are still alive) remember with emotion (and a strong desire to laugh).

Under the pretext of trying out the suspension of the trolley which, of course, had to be rustic, the Design Office had made a horrible "Thing" which was supposed to represent the characteristics of the final plane... and which was propelled by powder rockets.

My old friend Marchandeau had driven this assembly on the Persan-Beaumont field at a speed of 120 km/h and he had judged, rightly, that he could not continue on this promising path without obtaining a one-way ticket to visit « a granite pavilion ».

 

So this plane-buggy combination was taken to Istres and I brought it with an apocalyptic noise at 220 km/h which I found quite sufficient. But that was without counting on the Design Office, which had to ask itself the question of how the separation of the 2 aircraft and buggy would take place.

He was not the only one to wonder about this point which deserved all my attention but I was very far from suspecting what was going to follow.

 

"We're going to replace these wing stumps ridiculous by real plywood wings. There is already one depth and a direction and there will be ailerons and a retractable, or rather outgoing gear, and brakes and a badin, to summarize: all you need to take off, leave the trolley and land straight ahead because you will have a thrust of 1500 Kg for 4 seconds".

 

To tell the truth, I wasn't very motivated at idea on putting this device in the air, especially since my friends Littolff and Sarrail hadn't hidden from me that if I hurt myself and even more, they would be obliged to admit that it was normal.

But it was my first job as a constructor driver and it was hard for me to refuse.

I believe I was aware of the possible «waffle» because I remember asking to padded the cockpit and finding a LeO 45 tail wheel inner tube to insert between my buttocks and the seat cushion (there was, however, a cushion on seat).

 

All this can and must seem ridiculous today, but I remember that at the time we did not know simulators, electronic aids and that I had to perform maneuvers in a very short time, admittedly simple, but without prior training, in a painful sound environment and accelerations which were not negligible although without common with those supported today by our valiant successors.

 

It ended badly and I was lucky enough to think about getting the skids out (and they were out) because I crashed in a wagnerian sound... with the minister at the time looking on, for to crown it all, there was a minister... Absolute hapiness

Turcat, who knows me well, wrote in a most serious publication that I was completely bewildered next to the crushed monster.

I deny this information, because on the contrary I was upset and I remember having said to the minister "that for this type of job, it was Japanese pilots that had to be recruited"

For a few days I had the feeling that I had been beaten up and I told my wife (who did not believe me) that I had fallen from a stepladder.

 

I hasten to add that the plane behaved, by comparison, wonderfully well. It had flaws, but what plane didn't?

For example, he had "Dutch roll", that is to say that the badin pole at the end of his pointed nose described circles, small, but still awkward to adjust a shot. This will require a very important work to give it negative dihedral without convincing result.

It also had cable controls that could hold surprises.

We went through alternations of hope and disappointment but we kept, as I believe I said, good humor.

 

Our steps have taken us to new skies and beaches Atlantic, where the sea rises and downs, discovering at low tide the strip of sand where I put my courier. I don't think many pilots could read the test order:

Beginning of the track - across the Hôtel Morgane. End of runway - the diving board at the end of avenue du Général de Gaulle.

In this northern ocean it is well known that it is not often sunny like in Martigues and that the rising tide carries with it a kind of mist preventing departure to more aeronautical places.

And the wavelets come to lick the wheels of the trolley under the sorry eye of the head mechanic called "Tatave" who finds the situation intolerable and who suggests that I put the 01 to safety on the promenade by taking a judicious inclined plane. For this, it is imperative to gain momentum and I see myself pointing my Badin antenna in the dining room of the Hotel Morgane already mentioned above.Either way, it's going to be sporty. Saved by the gong, I see Mr. Nadot jump the perré like a young man, run towards me and inform me that a ray of light has appeared between here and St-Nazaire. God be praised. I take off in 3 or 4 decreasing headings and the trolley ends its course in the sea but my plane is safe and sound.

All this circus to meet the requirements of "various types of terrain".

I remember on this subject that I was asked to land on a motorway in Germany under the pretext that the Messers had used this cement tape.

I replied, naively, that if we compared the landing surface available on the motorways (even in Germany) and that of beet fields, the conclusion would be indisputable.

Because I could use the soft beet field where the landing was wonderfully short...but where the other planes got bogged down precisely because of the cm2 load.

 

Despite all these adventures, the tests continued and the defects were attenuating without disappearing completely and I managed to exceed Mach=1 (in a dive of course) and at the time there were not so many machines which made a bang-bang blow up on the ground; because it was the only way to be certain that the famous "sound barrier" was achieved.

That's what I was trying to do by aiming for the white and red checkerboard on the Istres runways without result and I admit that I was losing courage when I saw Turcat, his wife and children arriving one evening in a superb automobile and brandishing one of those big bottles of Champagne which are a pleasure to see.

One of his cousins who was in Fos in the afternoon, had heard the famous double bang and had telephoned André. The information taken that there was only me in the air. The conclusion was that I was aiming too high and the next time the target had to be Miramas.

Of course I was never one of those eagle-eyed hunters but I could do this "correction shooter" without too much difficulty expected if it was a few miles.

 

I have, again, a funny memory that relates to the famous "sound barrier". The English had made a film of it which, of course, I had not yet seen. We had joined Melun-Villaroche where we weren't bothering anyone and it was about joining Istres in flight.. This did not pose any particular problems but I had received the order never to lose sight of the ground from the altitude where the consumption allowed this raid.

So we came across one of those periods of rotten weather that characterizes the northern regions of our beautiful country for three weeks. It's a long time three weeks and even more for the people in charge of the buggy who were waiting for me at Istres.

It was, of course, on a Sunday afternoon that the clouds moved away from my route and that I landed on the pebbles of La Crau around 3 p.m. and it was quite naturally that no one was waiting for me there.

So I went on foot to find the people from the control tower who were kind enough to take me to the guard post (in a jeep). There was a working telephone there (this was surprising) and I was able to call a taxi (this was also surprising).

I was dressed in my anti-g suit of a pleasant spinach green color and that's how the taxi driver took me to the landlady of the buggy "chef".

Nowadays, when TV has broadcast Laverdure's adventures in space, everyone has seen young people dressed as cosmonauts, their eyes fixed on the blue sky, but that was not the case, far from it , at my era.

The chef and his assessors were at the cinema and guess what we saw at this cinema... precisely "The sound barrier".

I waited for the intermission and went up to the balcony passing a number of spectators who thought I was doing the animated commercial of the film to look for my guys.

I was amply repaid for my trouble by seeing their faces.

The addition of these small facts, each in itself rather funny, slowly opened my eyes and I, from then on, thought that this plane would never be accepted in our air force... and even in others.

It had been a long time since I knew that its performances were interesting and I had not waited for someone to demonstrate that you could gain altitude during a loop but I was doing this with a piece of stratus as a reference.

Why ? Cause I didn't feel right to risk it machine in a maneuver which could turn out to be dangerous and, moreover, unplanned.

The maneuverability was excellent but all this could not hide a certain instability making the sights delicate and then... it had no wheels.

Ah! If there had been wheels instead of skids, we could have considered sequels but if there were wheels, I wonder where we could have placed them.

 

Finally, if I remembered the war that I had fought and that I was

asked how I would view the use of these machines, I would inevitably end up pointing to a group of individuals, all patrol leaders, disreputable in discipline, able to disperse and regroup quickly from apple trees from Father Mathieu or pear trees from Madame Dugommier.

I can assure you that there are those famous pranksters out of which an outstanding chef can pull off great things. And in all this, where can the rules fit? That's just as well, because it's a war we're unlikely to see again. God be praised. The engines becoming more and more powerful, we had managed to do without the buggy for take-off and had acquired a certain autonomy in the evolutions on the ground. The buggy became an accessory that we could take in the air which did not fail to amaze the crowds.

We have to talk about the NATO competition where our machine was in outsider since it was understood that the winner would necessarily be the Fiat G 91. I remember this atmosphere and also that I broke down nervously because too much was being asked of me and I knew it was useless.

I would like to pay tribute to the whole wonderful team that used these machines and to mention the two flight mechanics who later died in air service: Pierre Crubillier and Marcel Hochet.

It seems to me worth remembering that these devices, five in number, did not kill anyone, and even never had serious breakdowns, which, for the era, deserves to be noted. It would be a way to pay tribute to the wonderful ground team that I loved, each of them, like a brother... and who returned it to me well.

Perhaps the reader will detect a tiny bit of bitterness?

No one is safe from it. Not even me whose epidermis was not yet armored to the test of criticisms not always justified and especially of the good words which were not, most often, of a refined taste.

The years have passed and I only have confused memories from which sometimes emerge (I wonder why) a very precise situation, a face or a sentence.

It is my little treasure and I thank the magazine Pégase for once again giving me access to it.

 

 

 

Nice finds 

[Drasleon 226]

35 minutes ago, Cedjoe said:

Nice finds 

 Thanks and it's not over:

 

Here the testimony of Colonel Boillot

Spoiler

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5326473d/f21.item

In fact, it seems to me that the engineer Jakimiuk, in creating the Baroudeur, wanted to have a light single engine having the performance of the Vulture.

For this aircraft, he planned to dotake off fully loaded with full arming using a buggy with possibly Jato type rockets and to put it on simple small skids once the device is relieved of all its loads and fuel.

 

This is how the Baroudeur has started, in my opinion. We took off the plane with the buggy then we accelerated the buggy and finally we made the plane fly with its buggy, Tito being on board. It seems to me that he does not have an imperishable memory of it, this flight having been uncomfortable and for the planeand for him. After that, we realized quite quickly that the trolley-plane system had its limits

 

The buggy weighed, if I remember correctly, around 1,350 kg and we dropped him on the ground at a speed of 150 to 160 knots (270 / 290 km/h); that posed a lot of problems, we

we were indeed taking off a little early, but by the time the drop sequence was done, we were in the air and the plane had continued to accelerate, if although the truck touched the ground at very high speed. In fact, we were trying to trigger the buggy just when we felt the plane was going to take off, but I saw a number of pilots take off coldly, on their first flight, with the buggy, I even saw it drop a hundred meters high... Imagine the cavorts that the buggy made that day. We quickly realized that this system had constraints of use.

 

In Reims, for example, one of my comrades dropped the buggy a bit late; he had taken off from the grass runway, leaving the GCA hut on his left and the buggy, after bouncing, passed over this shack, to the great fear of the radar operators who saw this monster of more than a ton arriving straight at their shack at a frightful speed. Fortunately, the buggy had the good idea to miss it... So we realized that this device would have a hard time being operational.

 

So we tried to imagine something else. We noticed that the plane, after landing, remained very maneuverable on its skids in its versions with the most powerful Atar.

When you put the throttle on, you slid easily, hence the idea of taking off on pads.

We discovered, when we fully loaded the plane with its 1,500 liters of fuel, that there was a sticking phenomenon when stationary which was a direct function of the pressure of the contact of the skids on the ground.

The aircraft, with full throttle, stuck; it was then necessary to take off the skids in shaking the plane at the end of the wings; he then began to lighten up by waddling on his skids like a duck, then he took off; or we moistened the skates with a spear sprinklers and the pads came off easily... But admit that it was not a very operational system.

We had all the same deduced that on this airplane the weight-thrust ratio was of great importance; to solve this problem, once landed, although the skids were very hot, because of their friction on the ground, they slid very easily and you could maneuver the plane as you wanted to bring it back to the hangar. To brake the plane, we used a harrow made up of 20 cm sticks which came out under each skids and were hydraulically controlled; at first these sticks were very small, Jakimiuk thinking that they could tear off the skids during the slowing maneuver. In use, he realized that he could enlarge these sticks in order to allow the piloting of the plane on the ground. It was very accurate as I showed up at the front of the dolly several times with the nose of the plane exactly in the middle of the throat which acted as a guide to winch and get on the dolly.

The aircraft's rudder was very large as well as its control surface and it was very effective for ground control, even at very low speeds.

With this extremely maneuverable aircraft on the ground on its skids, we therefore carried out a whole experimental campaign in Toulouse, Reims and Cognac.

 

We deduced that the best solution to use the Baroudeur was to leave it on its skates. To find a solution for stationary sticking, Jakimiuk thought of many devices.

First, he installed a wheel in the nose of the plane. This wheel, lowered, relieved the skates which thus became less buoyant. Then he thought of injecting water under the skids.

He had skates made with holes, in fact like a steam iron, but he soon realized that the pressure of the air which ejected the water through the humidification holes was enough to take off the pads, a bit like on an air cushion machine.

There was no longer any need to carry water. The weight of the aircraft exerted a pressure of 1.5 kg/cm3 on the skids and the air taken from the compressor came out at 4.5 kg. The device was tested on the test bench, but lack of funds did not allow it to be mounted on the aircraft which would have been the first air-cushioned aircraft in the world.

 

We also thought in the official services to equip the Baroudeur with a landing gear with classic wheels.

General Bonte, then Director of the Industrial Technical Department of Aeronautics, would have said or declared to his collaborators: “Ah! This Baroudeur... If only it had wheels

like everyone".

Jakimiuk had made a study with a landing gear whose wheels retracted in fairings fixed on the sides of the fuselage, but this project was not followed up.

On the other hand, a preliminary draft, the SE. 5500, represented an aircraft very directly derived from the Baroudeur but equipped with a fixed undercarriage with skids, because after all, this undercarriage did not drag too much and had not Tito one day broken the sound barrier after forgetting to return ?

By profiling the skids of this lighter version a little, we should have had a very valid plane (5 tons loaded, 2 guns, 1,500 liters of fuel, a radio-compass and a VHF station) capable of carrying out missions light support with an English Bristol Saphir engine of 4,500 kg of thrust thus giving a weight-thrust ratio greater than 1, extremely rare for the time.

It was requested that on this plane the rear stand have two positions, a classic position for landing and a relaxed position raising the rear of the plane to allow it not to pick up large amounts of grass on takeoff.

The plane's wings would have been folded towards the rear of the fuselage much like those of the Hellcat.

In addition, Bo (auxiliary wheels - Editor's note) could have been installed under the skids in order to easily tow the aircraft on the road. This configuration did not please the official services and the general staff, it was too revolutionary and disturbed the doctrines firmly established until then on the use of an aircraft in the event of a conflict.

In terms of flight qualities, I remember perfectly the excellent qualities of the Baroudeur which was superior in air combat to planes of the time such as the "Mystère", thanks to its low wing loading, its lightness, thanks also to the good

efficiency of its fins (or ailerons).

The Baroudeur flew as fast as the "Mystère IV" but climbed better and turned better in the turns.

On the other hand, it had a defect which could have been eliminated, it was dutch roll, that is to say combined oscillations around the axes of yaw and pitch.

This Dutch roll even became very serious under high load factors, so the firing platform it could offer was very poor and the shots from the guns would have truly watered without concentrating their fire. Jakimiuk had partly remedied this defect by

raising the axis of inertia “to pitch down” and putting it to “nose up”, which had greatly improved the qualities of the plane.

This modification, quite temporary, had consisted in installing behind the pilot a mass of lead of some 30 kilos, which was not very orthodox. Pigs-irons had also been installed on either side of the nozzle at the rear of the fuselage.

 

In reality, it would obviously have been necessary to review the aircraft weight distribution.

In terms of stall, the Baroudeur was remarkable. It had automatic leading edge slats and stalled at 87 knots (about 163 km/h). I saw one day a comrade to really land on the back skids at a really amazing angle of incidence.

 

We had managed to land as short as possible over 280 meters. Barbier, one of our colleagues, was the champion of this distance, by means of which he had twisted the nozzle slightly by touching from behind. Normally, for a trained pilot, it was common to land at a maximum of 350 meters. Which is quite remarkable, even today; the Baroudeur also had a characteristic, it landed very well on plowed land, but it was necessary to take the furrows across, i.e. at 90°. There was then no sticking of the skids when stationary, the surface of the ground being discontinuous.

 

This was, in a few words, the Baroudeur, in my opinion an aircraft full of promise; the tragedy was that the official services did not believe in this too revolutionary formula which disturbed habits. As for the General Staff, he had followed with a good eye, but without really believing in it, the tests of the plane whose formula seemed to him amusing, but nothing more.

 

 

As for the foreign pilots who tried the plane, they found it to be remarkably efficient. Murray, the American Major had even made an excellent demonstration for the time. It had passed over the ground very low, not so fast, maybe 450 knots (800 km/h), it had made a loop and was back on its axis at 1,000 feet (300 m). It had therefore taken more than 900 feet of gain in altitude in its loop and as the atmosphere was saturated that day, we could at a certain moment distinguish the egrets of condensation at the ends of the wings which made a very accentuated angle with the axis of the plane, the aigrette generated by the nose of the plane passed over the cockpit, it is to say to you how much the plate was ”to pull up” with the beaks open.

Murray was on his first flight and he had done this loop knowingly. When it reached the end of its loop, it was at less than 200 knots (360 km/h).

This maneuver perfectly showed the possibilities of evolution of the Baroudeur. I also remember the good qualities of the plane's fins. The drive coupling was remarkable, as well as the very strong forward induced roll and forward induced yaw, so when you did an aileron roll you could speed up that roll if you went in the right direction or stop the roll and even start back in the opposite direction very quickly, which was important for a combat aircraft.

 

On the level of the defects, the Baroudeur, with a hyper stability of which I was one day the victim. I had just made a pass of fire, like a mock attack, at relatively low speed and, at the time, I had the very unpleasant sensation of pressing the handle without anything happening; indeed, I could not reduce the nose up attitude of the plane by pushing on the stick and I had to bank the plane and put it in a sliding turn. Following this flight, an aerodynamic mask effect was detected on the elevator due to the pitch-up attitude. This problem was remedied by limiting the elevator deflection “up” to avoid getting into this configuration.

Here, in bulk, are my impressions of a prototype that above all gave me a lot of pleasure."

 

[LordAgamemmon 19]

Both the SE5000 and 5003 seem like they'd be great additions to early French cold war jets in game- and useful for both CAS in Ground RB as well as multirole capabilities for Air RB. Perhaps one or both could fit before the F-84G-26-RE in the odd mixed attacker line? 
 

[Drasleon 226]

On 31/05/2022 at 21:06, LordAgamemmon said:

Perhaps one or both could fit before the F-84G-26-RE in the odd mixed attacker line?

Hum, For a attaker I'm not sure:

First , according to the test pilots, the greater the aircraft's load factor, the greater are the Dutch rolls. Which is not really practical, at the limit, it would be mostly an occasional attacker.

Moreover,the Colonel Boillot affirms that the plane "flew as fast as the "Mystère IV" but climbed better and turned better in the turns."

Also it would be more logical to put it after the Mystery IV in the line of hunters.