2S38 "Derivatsiya"

[jet_17_49 411]

 

Summary:

Essentially a BMP-3 armed with a fully stabilized 57mm autocannon.

 

Background:

The 2S38 is a variant of the BMP-3 equipped with a new turret developed primarily for anti aircraft use, unveiled in 2018 and currently being offered for sale by the Uralvangonzavod vehicle factory. The turret is unmanned, allowing the gunner and commander of the BMP-3 to be relocated to the hull next to the driver, and possesses all-round resistance to 30mm ammunition. The new turret does not compromise the amphibious capability of the BMP-3, and the vehicle is capable of firing both on land and in water.

 

Unlike many iconic Soviet and post-Soviet SPAAGs from the 60s onwards, the Baikal turret is not armed with multiple fast firing, small caliber autocannons, but rather a singular 2A90 57mm autocannon derived from the S-60 autocannon found on the ZSU-57-2. Like its predecessor, the 2A90 is capable of firing legacy Soviet 57mm shells (APHE(!), proxy HE, etc.) and has a similar cyclic rate of fire of 120rpm. Unlike the ZSU-57-2, however, the 2S38 is capable of firing continuously instead of in 5 round bursts (as it feeds from an autoloader instead of hand loaded clips), and is planned to have access to APFSD rounds as well as programmable fuse and laser guided shells (still in the experimental phase as of early 2021). The 2A90 is fully stabilized, allowing the 2S38 to fire on the move, and targeting is assisted by a fully automated FCS including a laser rangefinder and combined TV+thermal sights (fully stabilized), allowing the 2S38 to be much more accurate than the ZSU-57-2. The vehicle does not rely on a radar to detect and track air targets, doing so instead solely using "passive optoelectronic means" (primarily its thermal sights from what I can gather). For self defense, the 2S38 is armed with 12 smoke grenade launchers placed all over the turret.

Quote

The base variant of the 2S38 features only a single PKTM light machine gun as a secondary weapon, although apparently additional weapons can be mounted onto the vehicle upon request.

 

Specs:

Mass: 21.5 metric tons

Crew: 3 (commander, gunner, driver)

 

Mobility:

Engine: UTD-29 diesel (500 hp)
Maximum road speed: 70 km/h
Amphibious speed on water:10 km/h
Range: 600 km

 

Armor:

Hull same as BMP-3 (ignoring addon side armor I am currently clueless about)

Turret all round resistant to 30mm shells

 

Armament (base variant):

1x 2A90 57mm cannon (148 rounds, APHE, HE, proxy HE; planned to fire programmable fuse and laser guided shells, APFSDS)

1xPKTM 7.62mm light machine gun (750 rounds)

Stabilization: Both guns and sights, 2 plane, (360° free rotation, +75°/-5° elevation range)

Defensive: 12x smoke grenades

FCS: combined TV+thermal sights, laser rangefinder

 

Potential role in game:

-Soviet tree Bagel 57 analogue

-Better interceptor of small projectiles like missiles and rockets than the ZSU-23-4 and 2S6 courtesy of proxy shells

-SPAAG option for the Soviets which prioritizes the ability to pop tanks over sheer volume of fire (unlike with the ZSU-23-4 and 2S6, which can spit a wall of shells at planes but can only tickle MBTs except from very specific angles)

 

Sources:

https://www.burevestnik.com/products_engl/au220m.html

http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/au-220-m/

https://twitter.com/MihajlovicMike/status/1272858934504718336/photo/2

https://en.topwar.ru/179661-zenitnyj-kompleks-derivacija-pvo-vopros-boepripasov.html

http://www.burevestnik.com/products/2s38.html

http://www.military-today.com/artillery/2s38_derivaciya_pvo.htm

 

OP's question:

Just what is the Baikal BMP-3's relationship to the 2S38?

Edited April 2, 2022 by jet_17_49

[leroyonly 4,310]

Open for discussion. 

[WreckingAres283 4,262]

+1 I havnt seen this vehicle before, dont ask me why lol, anyway, are u shure it only has APHE as armor piercing shell, no APDS or something ?

[Yontzee 1,673]

Interesting concept, hope to see +1

[Milocat 4,848]

Would like to see this at some point, +1.

[jet_17_49 411]

6 hours ago, WreckingAres283 said:

+1 I havnt seen this vehicle before, dont ask me why lol, anyway, are u shure it only has APHE as armor piercing shell, no APDS or something ?

Oops

With the amount of pen the 57mm has by autocannon standards I think APHE alone would more than suffice tbh

 

Not opposed to it receiving darts though

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by jet_17_49
Grammar

[Mr_Pokemon26295 358]

46 minutes ago, jet_17_49 said:

Oops

With how the amount of pen the 57mm has by autocannon standards I think APHE alone would more than suffice tbh

 

Not opposed to it receiving darts though

 

I think it should receive darts and its other ammo, allowing it to be at a BR of 9.3 after a folder of the (BMP-3 start of folder and Object 685 end) or 9.7 after the Sprut-S(more likely judging from the BR of the Switch 40mm apfsds slingers), either way it should be a great vehicle. +1;)

Edit: actually after seeing the add on armor I think 10.0 would be much more appropriate when fully kitted out 

Spoiler

https://twitter.com/dressler_w/status/1274022250585432064/photo/3

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Mr_Pokemon26295

[idiot400 664]

+1, with APFSDS it would be a counterpart to the Swedish 40mm IFVs

[hom3er 154]

would be cool to see at some point. Though I would like to see the PT-76-57 or what ever it's called first. (as it's a little older than this)

[WulfPack 1,693]

Sure as an 10.0-11.0 

[jet_17_49 411]

2 hours ago, hom3er said:

would be cool to see at some point. Though I would like to see the PT-76-57 or what ever it's called first. (as it's a little older than this)

The PT-76E? Would be nice to see that too.

[hom3er 154]

17 hours ago, jet_17_49 said:

The PT-76E?

yup, that's the one - I know it's called the PT-76E but there was some discussion about that suffix at some point... and it having a 57mm gun and not a 76mm is trowing up some questions regarding the name as well.

 

anyway... I want it, just like this thing.

[whosmans 70]

+1 

I found some more information: 2S38 Derivatsiya PVO | New Russian SPAAG vs 2K22M Tunguska - YouTube

57-mm automatic artillery installation AU-220M "Baikal" - photodetasis « Military-patriotic site "Courage" Military-patriotic site "Courage" (otvaga2004.ru)

Self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery complex 2S38 "Derivation-air defense" - MIC.name (vpk.name)

Tests of a unique Russian self-propelled complex - YouTube

 

[YUi_Takamura 662]

Does it has the missle? like bmp2m?

[eleks12 1,079]

+1 

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

On 01/11/2021 at 12:00, KaKaParkChunghee said:

Does it has the missle? like bmp2m?

nope it's a specialised AA version of the BMP3 with still some anti-ground capability

+1

Edited November 11, 2021 by MonkeyBussiness

[Kingtiez@live 606]

+1 With its laser guided shells and APFSDS, I suppose it would be similar to what we saw in Warfare 2077 from April Fools event on the Harpy.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Kingtiez@live

[SrNowel59917 656]

well an scale down otomatic +1

[Steppe Ghost 4]

On 03/10/2021 at 19:05, jet_17_49 said:

OP's question:

Just what is the Baikal BMP-3's relationship to the 2S38?

I think it was a prototype of 2S38 when it was just presented. In the articles: https://topwar.ru/96014-novosti-proekta-au-220m-baykal.html, https://topwar.ru/82283-pervyy-pokaz-bmp-3-derivaciya-s-boevym-modulem-au-220m.html its referred to as the same name "Derivatsiya". From what I see it uses the "light serie" (top picture in the spoiler) variant of AU-220M instead of "heavy serie" (bottom), like on the newer 2S38. The "light serie" variant is for IFVs, "heavy" is for specialised anti-air fighting vehicles (like 2S38), firing support vehicles (BMPT???), stationary defence turrets and ships.
 

Spoiler

From this link, here are some differences between the two:
 

Spoiler

Light / Heavy

RPM - 80 / 120

Firing range, km:
vertical - up to 7,5 / up to 9
horizontal - up to 14,5 / up to 14,5

Ammo:
57mm automatic cannon - 80 (2A91 cannon) / 148 (2A90, heavier cannon)
6P7K 7,62mm machinegun - 1000 / 1000

Aiming angles, degrees:
vertical - -5...+60 / -7...+75 (although on 2S38 it is said to be also -5 vertical)
horizontal - 360

Mass (counting ammo and chassis equipment), kg: 3600 / 5000 

A lot of extra links, sources (in red color at the bottom) and photos here

Also, here is a picture of the same shells but from the other side
 

Spoiler

Can't find much on this, one source says they are armored floats

On 03/10/2021 at 19:05, jet_17_49 said:

Armor:

Hull same as BMP-3 (ignoring addon side armor I am currently clueless about)

Edited December 12, 2021 by Ghost2552
add

[Steppe Ghost 4]

Anyways, looks like the gun and turret performance/characteristics in general are still more of a mystery and new shells (multi purpose, APFSDS, guided) are still in development. Possibly will be finished in 2022 with some new details uncovered.

[Steppe Ghost 4]

2S38 "Derivatsiya-PVO" Walkaround

ARMY-2020:
 

Spoiler

 

ARMY-2019:
 

Spoiler

 

ARMY-2018:
 

Spoiler

 

 

[Alan_Tovarishch 860]

Hi, im just gonna drop more sources on the 2S34 and its weapon systems.

MV of APFSDS is 1500 m/s. With the estimated dimension of the penetrator, it should pen about 250mm at combat ranges. 2S38 should come after Tunguska since within the 8km radius is bettter in every respect, it not using radars not only make it more survivable but also should have much better tracking vs low flying helicopters. And against ground units, 2S38 should play pretty much like the Otomatic, but better. So, a 10.3/7 worthy little bugger.

[Mr_Pokemon26295 358]

48 minutes ago, Alan_Tovarishch said:

Hi, im just gonna drop more sources on the 2S34 and its weapon systems.

MV of APFSDS is 1500 m/s. With the estimated dimension of the penetrator, it should pen about 250mm at combat ranges. 2S38 should come after Tunguska since within the 8km radius is bettter in every respect, it not using radars not only make it more survivable but also should have much better tracking vs low flying helicopters. And against ground units, 2S38 should play pretty much like the Otomatic, but better. So, a 10.3/7 worthy little bugger.

 

Thanks its a really cool vehicle (between this and some of the surface to air systems Russia has their anti aircraft gap potentially covered.

While yes I think it will play like an Otomatic  as more and more aircraft gain guided munition don't you think these gunned systems will have an increasingly harder time at doing their job (I mean vs helicopter of course it'll be good but vs planes in particular it'll be rough, so I think 10.3 might be more in the cards

[Alan_Tovarishch 860]

7 minutes ago, Mr_Pokemon26295 said:

Thanks its a really cool vehicle (between this and some of the surface to air systems Russia has their anti aircraft gap potentially covered.

While yes I think it will play like an Otomatic  as more and more aircraft gain guided munition don't you think these gunned systems will have an increasingly harder time at doing their job (I mean vs helicopter of course it'll be good but vs planes in particular it'll be rough, so I think 10.3 might be more in the cards

Vs planes it won´t be as good as propper SAM vehicles but having fully passive sensors means that jets can´t spot you as easy as they can spot stuff as tunguska, so its a trade off. Its an AA vehicle that can be very effective at ground combat on WT, sort of like the HSTVL but with the added advantage that the turret is fully unmanned and can be very dangerous against helos.

[POLYDEUCES 293]

Very interesting vehicle. In War Thunder perhaps at 9.3. 9.7 or 10.0?