DDR MiG-23MLA "The Most Powerful MiG-23 in East Germany"

[Mako_Reizei1 275]

 

                                                                                                                                                           GDR MiG-23MLA

                                         

                                                                                                                                               MiG-23MLA with number 339/569

 

MiG-23MLA entered service 2 years after the ML variant in 1975 which it was based on. The ML(1975) variant already had many improvements over the MF variant including weight reduction of 1250kg allowing for better acceleration,refined aerodynamic,wing mechanism were strengthen to allow 8.5g from previous 7.5g,new R-35F-300 engine and radar which include Sapfir-23ML.Differences between ML(1975) and MLA(1977) are only the radar and the missile it could fire. East Germany MLA were equipped with Sapfir-23MLAE(izd.N-003E) Radar a version that come with (23-12A) coupled with ASP-17ML sight,this new radar unlocked the availability to fire R-24T/R missile.From some source it appear that Czech and Bulgaria also had their MiG-23ML equipped with N-003E radar and ASP-17ML sight.

 

I'm just gonna say that the term ML and MLA were used wildly everywhere, it seem that the original 1975 ML were equipped with much weaker radar but later ML that was delivered to Warsaw pact countries has upgraded Sapfir-23-MLAE which meant they could fire R-24R/T with APU-23-M rails. Some call them MLA most of them does not just MiG-23ML but it has factory designation of (23-12A)

 

This Aircraft would not be better than the already implemented Soviet MiG-23MLD,it lack the maneuverability,radar,stronger airframe and larger caliber countermeasures that MLD has. That why I think it would be a nice addition, as GDR aircraft always lacks behind Russia like MiG-19S/19PT , MiG-21SMT/MF.

 

Specification for MiG-23MLA (idz. 23-12A)

Spoiler

Dimensions:

Wingspan : 13.965m

Length : 16.7m

Height : 4.82m

Wing Area : 37.65m2- fully spread

                    34.16m2-fully swept

 

Weight:

Empty : 10.2 Ton

Gross Weight : 14.8 Ton

Maximum Take-off weight : 17.8 Ton

Fuel full : 4,278L

 

Powerplant

Khatchaturov R-35-300

Thrust Dry: 83.34 KN / Afterburner : 127.49 KN

Max Speed : 2500km/h at high ALT/ 1350km/h at sea level

Climb Speed : 228 m/s

Max Height : 18000m

Take-off/Landing Dist. : 500m/750m

 

Armaments and Avionics

(same as soviet MiG-23MLD with the exception of R-73)

23mm Gryazev-Shipunov GSH-23L with 260 rpg

6x total Hardpoint

R-24R/T

R-23R/T

R-60

R-60M

R-13M

R-3S

 

Sapfir-23MLAE/N-003E/Ametist

55KM maximum detection range

20KM in Look down mode

Azimuth/Elevation : 60/6 degree

Beam width : 2.4 degree +-

RWR : SPO-15

Sight : ASP-17ML

IRST :TP-23ML

 

 

 

 

Debate

Spoiler

There some debate regarding whether LSK/GDR ever had this Aircraft but I stand by my decision that it did exist and GDR did received it mostly in 1982, theres so many sources and different people talking about GDR receiving MiG-23MLA that it couldnt be a typo,misunderstood or misinformation anymore.

 

Here a picture taken in may 2008 by a guy named Marcin Chandy on Flickr, He put the title of this picture MiG-23 MLA

NOTICE THE NUMBER 332. On a Russian Forum in 2012 somebody posted all the MiG-23 serial numbers that has been built.

 

 

This serial number matched with the aircraft above ↑↑↑ and as you can see it was assign to JG9 and was indeed MiG-23MLA, here another example, the author also put the title MiG-23MLA

 

the number 339 also matched ↓↓↓

 

 

here last ones, there were some listing on Ebay on some random picture of mig-23MLA

MiG-23-576

MiG-23-601

 

not only the number matched,the serial and date also matched.

 

New Proof below  ↓↓↓↓

 

More Proof(Document,Secondary sources,Pictures)

Spoiler

Again,It appear that from multiple sources, MiG-23MLA was simply written as MIG-23ML but had the designation of (23-12A) this was the case with Czech,Bulgaria and East Germany. MLA is simply an unofficial name given to ML to show it had a upgraded Radar.

 

1. Sapfir-23 MLAE/N-003E that were equipped in MLA/ML was able to fire R-24, I have the document below as PDF if you want them.

 

 

 

 

2. Aircraft equipped with N-003E Radar has ASP-17ML sight coupled together as an upgrade.

 

from a book

 

  from a book

 

from a website

 

 

3. Proof of East Germany MiG-23ML with ASP-17ML sight

The number 329 and 20+10 matches this serial, that was listed on the russian forum of all mig-23 serial number

 

 

 

 

above you can see the ASP-17ML sight and below of what it looks like unmounted.

 

ASP-17ML sight, from a website

 

 

 

4. Germany did receive the R-24R/T launcher (APU-23M1) for their MiG-23ML/MLA(1977^)

 

well after searching for more clue it turned out to be a difference between APU-23M1(R-24) and APU-23M1-E(R-23)

 

 

 

The left ones is the APU-23M1-E(R-23) and the right ones APU-23M1(R-24) which has tiny difference, you can see the two square prism looking thing, thats actually the wave guide(contain a bolometer).

 

Below is the picture close-up of GDR MiG-23MLA "331"

 

above, you can see the same light colored metal looking thingy which mean it is the APU-23M1 launcher. If that's not enough the Russian forum also proved this was indeed an MLA

 

 

Sources

Spoiler

 

Here are the source mentioning GDR MLA.

http://forums.airforce.ru/matchast/4178-reestr-mig-23-sozdadim-vmeste/ (1sr page,1st reply)

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/phazotron-sapfir-23-and-sapfir-25-radar.25/page-3 (page 3,2nd reply)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MiG-23MLA-2008-Peenemunde.jpg (picture of MLA)

https://books.google.com.my/books?id=ff-zDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT268&lpg=PT268&dq=mig-23mla&source=bl&ots=5CzUXyb4Pq&sig=ACfU3U01lnoowlo_Mb4prtRZFKYzr6JusQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjCwfDxxtvzAhV1ILcAHcHgCOg4MhDoAXoECCYQAw#v=onepage&q&f=false (last free page,paid book)

https://www.key.aero/forum/modern-military-aviation/21880-mig-23mla (2nd page,2nd reply)

https://www.sgvavia.ru/forum/931-467-6 (page 6-7)

https://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/mig-23ml-mla-usw.45515/page-2(1st page,1st reply, with some scattered in every page.)

https://www.markstyling.com/mig23.01.htm(last picture)

http://forums.airforce.ru/matchast/2581-pomogite-identificirovat-modifikaciyu-mig-23-a-10/#post53837(page 10)

 

https://m.blog.naver.com/PostView.naver?isHttpsRedirect=true&blogId=ljc424&logNo=80198818201 (check MLA desc)

https://books.google.com.my/books?id=LyBQBwAAQBAJ&pg=RA5-SA2-PA25&lpg=RA5-SA2-PA25&dq=ASP-17ML+sight&source=bl&ots=5U_A49K1KF&sig=ACfU3U2M17jp5Ti2VqBkw3n4xOXkI-FxPQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsh8iX3d3zAhV1gtgFHVUKBP4Q6AF6BAgUEAM#v=onepage&q=ASP-17ML sight&f=false (check the first free page,paid book)

https://www.ivln.de/newpageaabb8344#&gid=1682195380&pid=15

https://sites.google.com/site/sovietaircrafttech/mig-23/asp-17mlc

https://tahobaza.ru/en/remont-televizora-sapfir-istoriya-sozdaniya-otechestvennyh-radiolokacionnyh-sistem-rls-sapfir/(quarter way down)

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Germany-Air-Force/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-23ML/2373658/L(picture of MiG-23 with APU-23M1 launcher)

 

serial number for all GDR MiG-23MLA

https://www.biancahoegel.de/flug/typen/ru/mig/mig-23ml-ddr.html

 

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Mako_Reizei1

[leroyonly 4,310]

Open for discussion. 

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

Yes please, now with the introduction of the MiG-23MLD for the USSR. and the MiG-21Bis coming for Germany, this plane is basically already confirmed, since Germany doesn't have much else which can rival other MiG-23's ingame!

 

Eitherway, for the case in which this plane, for some reason, won't be added in the next 2 updates, I will give it my full support! +1

Edited October 25, 2021 by Stuhlfleisch

[Mako_Reizei1 275]

3 hours ago, leroyonly said:

Open for discussion. 

thank you, really grateful its finally approved. 

 

 

[Mako_Reizei1 275]

2 hours ago, Stuhlfleisch said:

Yes please, now with the introduction of the MiG-23MLD for the USSR. and the MiG-21Bis coming for Germany, this plane is basically already confirmed, since Germany doesn't have much else which can rival other MiG-23's ingame!

 

Eitherway, for the case in which this plane, for some reason, won't be added in the next 2 updates, I will give it my full support! +1

this plane was actually harder to research without this suggestion gaijin might give the less powerful MiG-23ML with only R-23 but research prove DDR did actually got and used this plane. 

 

Thank you for giving full support 

[Milocat 4,854]

+1 for sure, always up for more variants of important models.

[ЧВК Вагнер 13]

+1 

[HerrSektor 3,840]

This plane is a Must... +1

[Ein79 5,749]

On 25/10/2021 at 12:52, Mako_Reizei1 said:

without this suggestion gaijin might give the less powerful MiG-23ML with only R-23 but research prove DDR did actually got and used this plane. 

 

 

+1, strongly support.

Just hope it will not be the repetition of pathetic situation we currently have with the Mig-23MLD which has been deprived of R-60M missiles.

East German Mig-23MLA with nothing but R-23 and regular, old R-60...no, thx.

 

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

never heard of germany getting MLA but if it's true , it's def needed as a last step before gen 4 

[Godvana 533]

A must have to cap off Germany's gen 3 jets (along with the F4F ICE when it's appropriate)

 

+1

[Mako_Reizei1 275]

22 hours ago, Ein79 said:

 

+1, strongly support.

Just hope it will not be the repetition of pathetic situation we currently have with the Mig-23MLD which has been deprived of R-60M missiles.

East German Mig-23MLA with nothing but R-23 and regular, old R-60...no, thx.

 

 

yea, i dont understand why they wouldnt give r60m to MLD, r60m are not OP especially after flare buff, 1 flare is enough to distract r60m.

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

On 30/10/2021 at 16:24, Mako_Reizei1 said:

 

yea, i dont understand why they wouldnt give r60m to MLD, r60m are not OP especially after flare buff, 1 flare is enough to distract r60m.

seeing the perf of the MLD it's not needed right now and they hold it "in case" it's doing worse for some reason

[Ein79 5,749]

On 30/10/2021 at 16:24, Mako_Reizei1 said:

 

yea, i dont understand why they wouldnt give r60m to MLD, r60m are not OP especially after flare buff, 1 flare is enough to distract r60m.

Along with flares buff there is also all aspect capabilities nerf due to the more elaborate thermal model.

All the more there is no reason to leave Mig-23MLD with old, regular R-60 which is terrible missile as for current top tier meta.

 

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

1 hour ago, Ein79 said:

Along with flares buff there is also all aspect capabilities nerf due to the more elaborate thermal model.

All the more there is no reason to leave Mig-23MLD with old, regular R-60 which is terrible missile as for current top tier meta.

 

now that all IR missile got nerf , R-60 is average lol

[Ein79 5,749]

4 minutes ago, MonkeyBussiness said:

now that all IR missile got nerf , R-60 is average lol

 

Flare detection is increased across the board, but the impact of seeker FoV is still there. The R-60/60M has 2x wider FoV than Aim-9J or Magic, seeing more flares and other, random heat sources for a longer time, what significantly affects the probability of missile being distracted.

If you want to discuss it further, you can do it in dedicated thread:

 

[Mako_Reizei1 275]

1 hour ago, Ein79 said:

Along with flares buff there is also all aspect capabilities nerf due to the more elaborate thermal model.

All the more there is no reason to leave Mig-23MLD with old, regular R-60 which is terrible missile as for current top tier meta.

 

so higher attitude mean worse thermal detection? how does that work?

[Ein79 5,749]

4 minutes ago, Mako_Reizei1 said:

so higher attitude mean worse thermal detection? how does that work?

Yes, thin air at high altitude gives lower friction vs aircraft skin, so the thermal signature in full frontal headon, when engine/afterburner plume is not visible, may be lower.
Same way the lower the speed, the lower the friction...so even at low altitude when the target is slowed down, the IR lock in straight headon may be problematic.

But again, maybe better take it to the: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/526896-flares-missiles-balance-issues-feedback/&do=findComment&comment=9157190

 

 

[Onovo 2,100]

 yes, they used it (like all warsaw pack), but in this MM system- mig vs mig, f4 vs f4 is terrible idea to add this ( and other planes/tanks) to one tech tree.It need to solve MM (warsaw pack vs nato) and "fair" grind - for what i will grind USSR and after that  USA tech tree to get mig/phantom, when i can grind one nation with shorter way( no F-80/84 or MIG9) and get maybe better vehicles? 

[ЧВК Вагнер 13]

Mako_Reizei1 I took your topic for the Russian War Thunder forum to get more feedback from the Russian segment of players and more attention from developers https://forum.warthunder.ru/index.php?/topic/316308-gdr-mig-23mla-samyi-moshchnyi-mig-23-v-vostochnoi-germanii/ 

[WreckingAres283 4,262]

so, now that the MF ended up as an event vehicle, the chances to see the MLA as TT vehicle got higher

[ЧВК Вагнер 13]

3 часа назад, вредительство 283 сказал:

итак, теперь, когда MF превратился в транспортное средство для проведения мероприятий, шансы увидеть MLA в качестве транспортного средства TT возросли

[ЧВК Вагнер 13]

 

[Mako_Reizei1 275]

On 11/12/2021 at 01:46, Onovo said:

 yes, they used it (like all warsaw pack), but in this MM system- mig vs mig, f4 vs f4 is terrible idea to add this ( and other planes/tanks) to one tech tree.It need to solve MM (warsaw pack vs nato) and "fair" grind - for what i will grind USSR and after that  USA tech tree to get mig/phantom, when i can grind one nation with shorter way( no F-80/84 or MIG9) and get maybe better vehicles? 

 

the last soviet plane given to GDR is MiG-29A, this would mean later variant such as MiG-29S and MiG-35 will only be added to russia, people would want to grind russia if they want these vehicle.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Mako_Reizei1

[Borotovas 4,500]

+1