F-4J(UK) Phantom F.3

[warhead_beast 352]

 

 

 

 

History:

After the UK deployed a Squadrom of F4s to the Falklands in 1983, the UK needed to fill the empty space in its home air defence with new aircraft. Because of the delay of the new Tornado ADV they eventually desided to buy Ex-USN F4Js. With the US Navy recently adopting the F14 there were many F4Js and even F4S in reserve or storage. The US was very hesitand to sell its F4S so the UK decided to buy F4Js instead. The choice fell on 15 airfraimes wich were then completly rebuild in the US and brought almost the F4S standart ( without the leading edge slats and the helmet mounted gun sight). The F4J was used as the basis for the heavily modefied FGR.2 and FG.1 but this time the UK desides against a heavy modification and so the new and probably best british phantoms are farly stock F4Js. Instead of the Rolls Royce Spey engines they retained the General Electric J79-10B engines which had less power on low altitudes but could provide way more performance at high altitude. They also had better engine response and afterburner ignition time. They also requierd smaller air intakes which made the aircraft overall more aerodynamic. Most of the american tech were also retained with only minor modifications done to make the compatible with the Skyflash missle, the SUU-23A gun pod and the rest of the british phantoms. The Westinghouse AWG-10 Radar which was a big improvement over the old AWG 11A/12A was also kept even if it meant a lot of work to make the Skyflash compatible with it. The Crew also had to use US flight helmets because the avionics and electronics weren't modified to fit the british helmets. 

In 1984 the 15 planes were moved to great britain and were assinged to the 74th "Tiger" Squadron of the RAF which was espcially revived for that purpose. In 1987 the Tornado entered service which ment that most of the british phantoms were retired. And eventually in 1991 the F4J(UK) Phantom took to the sky for the last time. Most of the 15 Aircraft were sadly scraped while 1 was lost in an accident which sadly killed both pilot and navigator. 

 

Diffrences to the british Phantoms:

The major diffrences were the use of General Electric J79-10B engines instead of the Rolls Royce Spey. Although they had less power at low altitude they had way better performance at higher Altitude and better throttle response. They also used the Westinghouse AWG-10 Radar which was supperior to the AWG-11A/12A and had an digital computer compared to the latters manual computers. F4J(UK) was both lighter, more manourvable and faster than the FGR.2/FG.1 because of more modern system and better avionics.

Why should it be in game:

Because they are the last supoersonic interceptors/fighters that britian can get before the Tornados. They would be a better more powerful Version than the FGR.2/FG.1 with espacially the new Radar and the flight performance making a big diffrence. They would be almost equal to the EJ Kai so they would be a good counter to them.

 

Stats:

Armament: same as FGR.2/FG.1 (it also could carry 9Ls )  (the F4J could carry 2 more Fox 1 Missiles on the outer wing pilons so it could also be possible on the F4J (UK), the question is if it was ever used)

Powerplant: Two 17,900 lb J-79-GE-10Bs

Max Speed: 1,434 mph at 40,000 ft / 2.1 mach at altitude 

Service ceiling: 61,900 ft

Empty weight: 29,900 lb (1.100lb lighter than the FGR/FG1)

Length: 58 ft 3 in

Height: 16 ft 6 in

 

Pictures: 

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Sources: 

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_Phantom_in_UK_service#F-4J(UK)_Phantom_F.3

-https://www.key.aero/article/f-4juk-phantoms-vietnam-vets-raf-service

-https://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/phantom/history.php

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._74_Squadron_RAF

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK1KnmY08xw

 

 

Picture Sources: 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/McDonnell_Douglas_F-4J_Phantom_F3%2C_UK_-_Air_Force_AN1445792.jpg

-https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/F-4J(UK)_Phantom_of_74_Squadron_in_flight_1984.jpg/1280px-F-4J(UK)_Phantom_of_74_Squadron_in_flight_1984.jpg

-https://cdn.jetphotos.com/full/1/64768_1259032226.jpg

-https://live.staticflickr.com/4176/34499767676_9bdd4176a8_b.jpg

-https://fullfatthings-keyaero.b-cdn.net/sites/keyaero/files/imported/2020-06-12/img_43_2.jpg

Edited May 19, 2022 by warhead_beast

[Miki_Hoshii 2,449]

Open for discussion.

[warhead_beast 352]

40 minutes ago, Miki_Hoshii said:

Open for discussion.

thanks a lot 

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

+1 and i hope USA receive their equivalent at the same time but i've never seen a 6 sparrow configuration

[Milocat 4,854]

+1, would be a great addition.

[Flame2512 3,384]

Another difference between it and the other British Phantoms is that it didn't have the AN/ALE-40 flare dispensers. It instead had fuselage mounted AN/ALE-29As which fired upwards. The AN/ALE-29 had room for 60 countermeasures, so depending on if the Phantoms get their flare count fixed that could be better or worse than the FG.1 / FGR.2.

 

Regarding radars the AN/AWG-11 and AN/AWG-12 were improved versions of the original AN/AWG-10. The radar on the F-4J(UK)s was upgraded by Ferranti to AN/AWG-10B standard, and the general consensus among what I've read appears to be that AWG-10B was better than the 11 or 12, but I don't think it was a massive improvement. Also I doubt that Gaijin will model any sort of difference (both the Phantom FG.1 & FGR.2 are currently modelled with AN/APG-59 radars instead of their APG-60 & 61 radars respectively).

 

Also if anyone is interested here is an interview with an F-4J(UK) pilot, personally I found it quite interesting. He compares it to the FGR.2 at the 19:00; apparently the main reason the F-4J had an advantage over the FGR.2 in dogfights was because the FGR.2 usually carried two drop tanks while the F-4J(UK) usually only carried one. Apparently when clean they both pull about the same Gs and altitude is what decides the fight (due to engine performance).

I'd like to see the F-4J(UK) in the game for completion's stake but I feel at most it will be a side-grade over the FGR.2, at the altitudes combat seems to happen at in WT I doubt we would see the benefits of the F-4J's engines.

 

Another thought is where to put it in the tree. After the Lightning would be a logical place, seeing as it was used solely for air defence, or it could be in a folder with the Phantom FGR.2 to reduce the grind. Or Gaijin could pull curveball and make it an event / squadron vehicle (though that would devalue the F-4F Early).

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

41 minutes ago, Flame2512 said:

Another difference between it and the other British Phantoms is that it didn't have the AN/ALE-40 flare dispensers. It instead had fuselage mounted AN/ALE-29As which fired upwards. The AN/ALE-29 had room for 60 countermeasures, so depending on if the Phantoms get their flare count fixed that could be better or worse than the FG.1 / FGR.2.

 

Regarding radars the AN/AWG-11 and AN/AWG-12 were improved versions of the original AN/AWG-10. The radar on the F-4J(UK)s was upgraded by Ferranti to AN/AWG-10B standard, and the general consensus among what I've read appears to be that AWG-10B was better than the 11 or 12, but I don't think it was a massive improvement. Also I doubt that Gaijin will model any sort of difference (both the Phantom FG.1 & FGR.2 are currently modelled with AN/APG-59 radars instead of their APG-60 & 61 radars respectively).

 

Also if anyone is interested here is an interview with an F-4J(UK) pilot, personally I found it quite interesting. He compares it to the FGR.2 at the 19:00; apparently the main reason the F-4J had an advantage over the FGR.2 in dogfights was because the FGR.2 usually carried two drop tanks while the F-4J(UK) usually only carried one. Apparently when clean they both pull about the same Gs and altitude is what decides the fight (due to engine performance).

I'd like to see the F-4J(UK) in the game for completion's stake but I feel at most it will be a side-grade over the FGR.2, at the altitudes combat seems to happen at in WT I doubt we would see the benefits of the F-4J's engines.

 

Another thought is where to put it in the tree. After the Lightning would be a logical place, seeing as it was used solely for air defence, or it could be in a folder with the Phantom FGR.2 to reduce the grind. Or Gaijin could pull curveball and make it an event / squadron vehicle (though that would devalue the F-4F Early).

i would personnaly put it after the lightning just to have an "end of the line top tier jet"

Edited November 7, 2021 by MonkeyBussiness

[oom1992 649]

I think F-4J(UK) Phantom F.3 have something better F-4J(USN) & FG.1/FGR.2 that engine and radar same as F-4S, guess F-4J(UK) come together with F-4J(USN) but don't know is research or premium tree depends on developer.

Edited November 8, 2021 by oom1992

[AVROVULCANXH558 349]

+1 for sure, it's definitely needed. It will fit in well after the Lightning F.6.

[stevehappy321 89]

Given how well Britain does in top tier now, I can't say we need another Phantom, let alone one that could** carry 6 Skyflashes. Besides, the 15 F-4Js were only a small fraction compared to the total number of Phantoms the British had, and only served to temporarily fill a gap in air defences during the Falklands War. All surviving F-4Js were scrapped too.

 

Unless Gaijin decides to give this F-4J 6 Skyflashes (which they probably won't for balance), it would be inferior to the FG1 and FGR2 we already have considering nobody fights at 30000ft+, aside from veteran top tier players who know that SARHMs are most effective at high altitude.

 

If anything, this F-4J should be given the Agile Eagle slats and added to the US tree (effectively making it the F-4S, as the only difference between that and the F-4J(UK) were the slats). Even if the flight performance is inferior to the British Phantoms, the PD radar would at least give US Phantom players a reason to climb and joust with sparrows instead of get dunked on by SARHMs and other missiles from above.

 

Sorry, but I think the current British Phantoms will be fine for quite a while and there is no need for another one.

Edited November 15, 2021 by stevehappy321

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

On 15/11/2021 at 12:37, stevehappy321 said:

Given how well Britain does in top tier now, I can't say we need another Phantom, let alone one that could** carry 6 Skyflashes. Besides, the 15 F-4Js were only a small fraction compared to the total number of Phantoms the British had, and only served to temporarily fill a gap in air defences during the Falklands War. All surviving F-4Js were scrapped too.

 

Unless Gaijin decides to give this F-4J 6 Skyflashes (which they probably won't for balance), it would be inferior to the FG1 and FGR2 we already have considering nobody fights at 30000ft+, aside from veteran top tier players who know that SARHMs are most effective at high altitude.

 

If anything, this F-4J should be given the Agile Eagle slats and added to the US tree (effectively making it the F-4S, as the only difference between that and the F-4J(UK) were the slats). Even if the flight performance is inferior to the British Phantoms, the PD radar would at least give US Phantom players a reason to climb and joust with sparrows instead of get dunked on by SARHMs and other missiles from above.

 

Sorry, but I think the current British Phantoms will be fine for quite a while and there is no need for another one.

it's not a suggestion "because it's needed" but rather a suggestion because brits already got 2 and a third one was historicaly used and wouldn't break anything if added right now , so why not

[SniperSVD 15]

+1, i think it can be added after the EE Lightning. Though, since USSR got their MiG-23MLD, and US is patiently waiting for their F-15's, F-16's and Tomcats, i doubt Britain will ever regain its air superiority. This Phantom probably won't change much, but it still would be cool to have.

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

10 minutes ago, SniperSVD said:

+1, i think it can be added after the EE Lightning. Though, since USSR got their MiG-23MLD, and US is patiently waiting for their F-15's, F-16's and Tomcats navy phantom with doppler radar, i doubt Britain will ever regain its air superiority. This Phantom probably won't change much, but it still would be cool to have.

btw UK is already one of the top dog atm because 4 skyflash + doppler radar and really good engines for the meta (low alt) is all they need to kick some a**

[warhead_beast 352]

3 hours ago, MonkeyBussiness said:

btw UK is already one of the top dog atm because 4 skyflash + doppler radar and really good engines for the meta (low alt) is all they need to kick some a**

Yes that is true, it would be a bit more "future proofing" because we probably wont get a Tornado F3 for a while. 

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

17 minutes ago, warhead_beast said:

Yes that is true, it would be a bit more "future proofing" because we probably wont get a Tornado F3 for a while. 

if we get any because panavia won't give the license

[warhead_beast 352]

On 20/11/2021 at 18:47, MonkeyBussiness said:

if we get any because panavia won't give the license

yes thats what i meant. Worse case scenario is we dont get a supersonic fighter till the Typhoon which is well lets say more than a year out. Gajin could add a CF-18 but i highly doubt it. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by warhead_beast

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

8 minutes ago, warhead_beast said:

yes thats what i meant. Worse case cenario is we dont get a supersonic fighter till the Typhoon which is well lets say more than a year out. Gajin could add a CF-18 but i highly doubt it. 

even with early gen4 british phantom will still be good and IMO it's better to have an early prototype of the typhoon than a US plane

[warhead_beast 352]

2 hours ago, MonkeyBussiness said:

even with early gen4 british phantom will still be good and IMO it's better to have an early prototype of the typhoon than a US plane

Well i dont see an british phantom having a chance against a Mig29, F14, Su 27 and even an early F15 anytime soon (because those planes will be before any typhoon prototype)

Edited November 20, 2021 by warhead_beast

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

19 minutes ago, warhead_beast said:

Well i dont see an british phantom having a chance against a Mig29, F14, Su 27 and even an early F15 anytime soon (because those planes will be before any typhoon prototype)

Su-27 and F-15 are another league but facing F-16A with 6 AIM-9J/L or Mig-29A with 6 x R-60/M is still possible

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

now that USA got  their model i hope we get both F-4S for USA and F-4J(UK) next patch

[Borotovas 4,500]

+1

[Headnaught 502]

Having another Phantom with substandard performance compared to the FG.1 and FGR.2 owing to the GE engines instead of the Speys doesn't really interest me, despite the 2 extra Skyflashes, I personally don't agree with UK top tier being a Phantom Flotilla. I would like to see indigenous designs or Eurofighters instead.

[warhead_beast 352]

3 hours ago, Headnaught said:

Having another Phantom with substandard performance compared to the FG.1 and FGR.2 owing to the GE engines instead of the Speys doesn't really interest me, despite the 2 extra Skyflashes, I personally don't agree with UK top tier being a Phantom Flotilla. I would like to see indigenous designs or Eurofighters instead.

Of course we would all rather like indigenous designs but reality is that the Tornado and Eurofighter are at least 1 year out (that is if the Tornado even comes)... thats why another phantom as a main air superiority fighter would be needed. 

[MonkeyBussiness 1,228]

On 30/01/2022 at 18:25, Headnaught said:

Having another Phantom with substandard performance compared to the FG.1 and FGR.2 owing to the GE engines instead of the Speys doesn't really interest me, despite the 2 extra Skyflashes, I personally don't agree with UK top tier being a Phantom Flotilla. I would like to see indigenous designs or Eurofighters instead.

not the same generation so hardly comparable atm and i don't think a sea harrier with AIM-9L would do the trick

[Headnaught 502]

On 30/01/2022 at 15:40, warhead_beast said:

Of course we would all rather like indigenous designs but reality is that the Tornado and Eurofighter are at least 1 year out (that is if the Tornado even comes)... thats why another phantom as a main air superiority fighter would be needed. 

Fair enough. Also I'm aware the GE engines are better at altitude so it's kind of an apples and oranges deal with the F.3.