The Merkava Topic

[CyrusJackson 1,823]

22 hours ago, TheBlazero said:

Shouldn't be an issue for me when it comes to Hebrew (Being Israeli after all) I can translate / search for any of those documents. Cousin was an engineer for the Merkava's during his service time, maybe he could assist me in getting some unclassified documents. No promises though 

Amazing! Can't wait to see what you managed to dig up!

 

7 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Since firepower advanced beyond armor, at least when it comes to APFSDS versus composites, I find it difficult to believe a Namer would be able to soak up hits from tanks. Even modern tanks won't really be able to withstand their own APFSDS in typical engagement ranges. And with its subpar mobility (a new variant with 1500hp engine was supposed to come out but no word on it yet), I don't think it will be comfortable for most players to use. Mobility is king - Merkava excells at that IRL, but the Namer would compete with much more nimble IFVs.

 

The KE protection of the namer is probably around/above 600mm KE which put it at a protection level above the best APFSDS fired by Russia. As far as I know, part of the Merkava turret protection was moved to the Namer hull putting it at a crazy 60 metric tonnes of weight. The Namer has the same weight as a Leopard 2A6 yet doesn't have a turret. All that weight has to come from somewhere. We can already assume it has more than 1'000m of HEAT protection since it survived multiple Kornet hit without penetration.(Insane for an IFV)

 

Mobility wise, it would have slightly more mobility than the Bradley at 20hp/t versus the M3A3 19hp/t. It's not going to be a racing around but it should have enough mobility to move around decently.

Edited December 17, 2021 by CyrusJackson

[Zucc_Boi 656]

31 minutes ago, CyrusJackson said:

Amazing! Can't wait to see what you managed to dig up!

 

 

The KE protection of the namer is probably around/above 600mm KE which put it at a protection level above the best APFSDS fired by Russia. As far as I know, part of the Merkava turret protection was moved to the Namer hull putting it at a crazy 60 metric tonnes of weight. The Namer has the same weight as a Leopard 2A6 yet doesn't have a turret. All that weight has to come from somewhere. We can already assume it has more than 1'000m of HEAT protection since it survived multiple Kornet hit without protection.(Insane for an IFV)

 

Mobility wise, it would have slightly more mobility than the Bradley at 20hp/t versus the M3A3 19hp/t. It's not going to be a racing around but it should have enough mobility to move around decently.

Most of that weight went into beefing up the sides and making the vehicle taller to accommodate troops. And if a CEV variant weighs 63.5 tons, rest assured an IFV variant will weigh at least 65 tons, putting it at 18.4 hp/ton. If only the IDF can accept a 1500hp powered Namer in time...

Protection versus HEAT should be over 1,200mm, at least, not 1,000, as that's what the Kornet penetrates, but we can't tell if the armor is optimized for a balance or HEAT. Gaijin will just have to put whatever makes it most balanced. I remember hearing somewhere it was claimed to be resistant to 125mm APFSDS that existed when it entered service, but I cannot find it anywhere so...

Edited December 17, 2021 by Mighty_Zuk

[Cairn_67 537]

15 hours ago, yoyolast said:

The Namer would be utterly insane in terms of protection with likely no equivilent in any other nation to speak of. The IFV variation of it would likely not play like a light vehicle but moreso a heavy tank  it would present an interesting gameplay element for top tier though being so well protected but likely lacking mobility.

The normal Namer (no turrets) is almost the same height as the Merkava Mk4, and the Mk4's outer dimensions are about 10% larger than the Mk3...

Spoiler

http://israeli-weapons.com/weapons/vehicles/armored_personnel_carriers/namera/P1010197_1.jpg

 

...The Mk3 isn't a small tank either...

Spoiler

^Some Abrams were sent to Israel for comparison trials with the Mk3. The Abrams won most of the competitions on the open plains, but the Merkava was undefeated in the Golan Heights.

^Might be a Mk2 in the background

If I ever get back into plastic models, or tumble down the rabbit hole of 3D printing, the Mk3 (Baz), Mk4 and Namer will be among my first projects.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Cairn_67

[Zucc_Boi 656]

The photo showing a Merkava 3 alongside an M1A1 AIM is misleading. The Merkava is much closer to the camera, and the Abrams' front is almost at the rear end of the Merkava, making it appear bigger.

 

I've seen Merkavas a lot during my service. Even the largest Mark 4 is not nearly as big as people make it to be, with or without its exceptional ground clearance. At 1.74m the tallest part of the hull is below eye level, and yes I'm including its armor extensions on the sides.

[PARDUS IX@live 263]

Can someone make a development suggestion for the Droid IR-Laser Dazzler aps, that is present on current reserve MK-2B's, MK-2D's, MK-3's, and most Mk-4's.

the droid is the can shaped object on the roof mast, its is an missile guidance dazzler that works on laser's and mclos atgms. the unit also has 360 degree coverage.

images below:

 

mk 3-4 with unit.

mk 2D with unit:

Mk-2B with unit:

[Cairn_67 537]

On 18/12/2021 at 09:41, Zucc_Boi said:

The photo showing a Merkava 3 alongside an M1A1 AIM is misleading. The Merkava is much closer to the camera, and the Abrams' front is almost at the rear end of the Merkava, making it appear bigger.

 

I've seen Merkavas a lot during my service. Even the largest Mark 4 is not nearly as big as people make it to be, with or without its exceptional ground clearance. At 1.74m the tallest part of the hull is below eye level, and yes I'm including its armor extensions on the sides.

I don't believe the Merkava Mk4's hull is that small. 1.74 is almost shoulder height on me (1.94 when I last measured). One more goal for my second trip to Israel; stand beside a Mk4 with a ruler and pencil (while avoiding the grandmothers with their APDS knitting needles).

 

Some more Merkava pics I've found...

Spoiler

Mk2s in Lebanon (1982)

http://www.voodoo-world.cz/merkava/images/mk3/mk3_7.jpg

(uncertain of accuracy, scale is in feet)

A Mk2 escorting an M113

 

Mk3 parked beside a Ford Ranger (or an F-series, confused by the roof lights)

 

A Mk4 on exercise

 

Some Mk4s lined up outside Gaza

 

The Mk4's ammo

 

And for something different, an Abrams nestled among some AFVs.

...more pics to follow.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PARDUS IX@live 263]

On 20/12/2021 at 23:07, PARDUS IX@live said:

Can someone make a development suggestion for the Droid IR-Laser Dazzler aps, that is present on current reserve MK-2B's, MK-2D's, MK-3's, and most Mk-4's.

the droid is the can shaped object on the roof mast, its is an missile guidance dazzler that works on laser's and mclos atgms. the unit also has 360 degree coverage.

images below:

 

mk 3-4 with unit.

mk 2D with unit:

Mk-2B with unit:

Another mk2 with the "Droid" dazzler aps:

[Zucc_Boi 656]

5 hours ago, Cairn_67 said:

I don't believe the Merkava Mk4's hull is that small. 1.74 is almost shoulder height on me (1.94 when I last measured). One more goal for my second trip to Israel; stand beside a Mk4 with a ruler and pencil (while avoiding the grandmothers with their APDS knitting needles).

 

Some more Merkava pics I've found...

Reveal hidden contents

Mk2s in Lebanon (1982)

http://www.voodoo-world.cz/merkava/images/mk3/mk3_7.jpg

(uncertain of accuracy, scale is in feet)

A Mk2 escorting an M113

 

Mk3 parked beside a Ford Ranger (or an F-series, confused by the roof lights)

 

A Mk4 on exercise

 

Some Mk4s lined up outside Gaza

 

The Mk4's ammo

 

And for something different, an Abrams nestled among some AFVs.

...more pics to follow.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

The scale on the model is off. The hull is about 30 feet in length entirely, not just partially.

All the other photos are terrible for comparisons because it's never two objects really side by side.

Not sure what's the one with the Abrams supposed to show - it's literally right next to two of the world's largest AFVs. Wheeled AFVs are notoriously tall.

 

The Merkava, if we exclude ground clearance, has the 2nd smallest hull in the west, behind the Abrams. The T-14 is the world's tallest tank. If we include armor, the Merkava 4 has the world's tallest turret.

 

https://topwar.ru/172424-pokazano-shematicheskoe-sravnenie-tanka-t-14-armata-s-merkavoj-abramsom-i-drugimi-tankami.html

[SoupMcT@psn 344]

Don’t forget the elusive Merkava Mk.3M

(Merkava Mk.3 with APS)

 

 

[Zucc_Boi 656]

6 hours ago, SoupMcT@psn said:

Don’t forget the elusive Merkava Mk.3M

(Merkava Mk.3 with APS)

 

 

That one's still premium material. Revealed a while ago but doesn't seem like the IDF has made any progress since.

[SoupMcT@psn 344]

9 hours ago, Zucc_Boi said:

That one's still premium material. Revealed a while ago but doesn't seem like the IDF has made any progress since.

I doubt gaijin will put it as a premium since it could be used as a substitute for the regular Mk.3D in the Israeli tree.

[Zucc_Boi 656]

54 minutes ago, SoupMcT@psn said:

I doubt gaijin will put it as a premium since it could be used as a substitute for the regular Mk.3D in the Israeli tree.

It wasn't and still isn't used regularly though. Despite it being a good addition, basically a must for the game, it would be unbalanced with 95% certainty. Its APS would make it nay invulnerable to ATGMs and HEAT shells, making it OP versus most IFVs and many non-spaded tanks (since many start with HEAT). 

But if uptiered to compensate, it would be easily outmaneuvered, will have poor armor for its era, and very mediocre, perhaps poor APFSDS against its peers (M322).

Edited December 24, 2021 by Zucc_Boi

[SoupMcT@psn 344]

12 minutes ago, Zucc_Boi said:

It wasn't and still isn't used regularly though. Despite it being a good addition, basically a must for the game, it would be unbalanced with 95% certainty. Its APS would make it nay invulnerable to ATGMs and HEAT shells, making it OP versus most IFVs and many non-spaded tanks (since many start with HEAT). 

But if uptiered to compensate, it would be easily outmaneuvered, will have poor armor for its era, and very mediocre, perhaps poor APFSDS against its peers (M322).

It’s fire power is the replacement for the M322 which I believe is M711 and be brought upon BR. Despite is not being used regularly it’s still used by them and therefor won’t be a premium. The Merkava Mk.2D is far more used by the IDF and it was made a premium. The Mk.3M will make it into the game one way or another.

[Zucc_Boi 656]

33 minutes ago, SoupMcT@psn said:

It’s fire power is the replacement for the M322 which I believe is M711 and be brought upon BR. Despite is not being used regularly it’s still used by them and therefor won’t be a premium. The Merkava Mk.2D is far more used by the IDF and it was made a premium. The Mk.3M will make it into the game one way or another.

The M711 is a 125mm APFSDS made for export. Israel doesn't use 125mm guns...

The Merkava 3M isn't used operationally. There was an exercise that included one such tank, the news published a story the IDF will upgrade Merkava 3 tanks with APS, but in the meantime the IDF isn't actually doing it yet and the reason is that all ground modernization programs at least involving AFVs were delayed by 2 years due to a political crisis that prevented the state budget from passing. Only existing programs of manufacturing existing items were kept alive. The budget has since been restored but it means we won't hear about the status of a Merkava 3M anytime soon.

 

There are many reasons to make the Mark 2D a premium. For example, to get people to buy it when there is no other tank in the tree so far. Its premium status does not prevent it from also being a free tank. 

[SoupMcT@psn 344]

40 minutes ago, Zucc_Boi said:

The M711 is a 125mm APFSDS made for export. Israel doesn't use 125mm guns...

The Merkava 3M isn't used operationally. There was an exercise that included one such tank, the news published a story the IDF will upgrade Merkava 3 tanks with APS, but in the meantime the IDF isn't actually doing it yet and the reason is that all ground modernization programs at least involving AFVs were delayed by 2 years due to a political crisis that prevented the state budget from passing. Only existing programs of manufacturing existing items were kept alive. The budget has since been restored but it means we won't hear about the status of a Merkava 3M anytime soon.

 

There are many reasons to make the Mark 2D a premium. For example, to get people to buy it when there is no other tank in the tree so far. Its premium status does not prevent it from also being a free tank. 

If it becomes a premium it will be once tier 8-9 come because the 3M is capable of firing modern APFSDS.

[Zucc_Boi 656]

1 hour ago, SoupMcT@psn said:

If it becomes a premium it will be once tier 8-9 come because the 3M is capable of firing modern APFSDS.

When disregarding the Trophy, which I don't know how they'll balance, it should really just be in the same BR as Type 90 and M1A1. It doesn't use the same modern APFSDS as the Merkava 4 does.

[SoupMcT@psn 344]

36 minutes ago, Zucc_Boi said:

When disregarding the Trophy, which I don't know how they'll balance, it should really just be in the same BR as Type 90 and M1A1. It doesn't use the same modern APFSDS as the Merkava 4 does.

I’m pretty sure the Merkava Mk.3 is capable of firing the same ammo given it uses the same gun.

[Zucc_Boi 656]

47 minutes ago, SoupMcT@psn said:

I’m pretty sure the Merkava Mk.3 is capable of firing the same ammo given it uses the same gun.

Except it doesn't. 

https://elbitsystems.com/media/Tank-Ammunition-Portfolio-2021.pdf

Merkava 3 uses the MG251 gun, and Merkava 4 uses the MG251-LR gun. The difference is in recoil length, with the Merkava 4 being able to sustain higher pressures and thus allowing it to fire more powerful munitions. The M338 is this higher energy munition that only the Merkava 4 can fire.  

[Omeroses 13]

1 hour ago, Zucc_Boi said:

Except it doesn't. 

https://elbitsystems.com/media/Tank-Ammunition-Portfolio-2021.pdf

Merkava 3 uses the MG251 gun, and Merkava 4 uses the MG251-LR gun. The difference is in recoil length, with the Merkava 4 being able to sustain higher pressures and thus allowing it to fire more powerful munitions. The M338 is this higher energy munition that only the Merkava 4 can fire.  

do you know if the merkava mk1/2 ever used the M426,M428,M413 or the CL3108? (from a quick google i didnt find much info on that subject)

interesting that the 105mm dm23 dm33 and dm63 are actually israeli shells Produced under licence in germany (according to wiki at least :P )

[Zucc_Boi 656]

36 minutes ago, Omeroses said:

do you know if the merkava mk1/2 ever used the M426,M428,M413 or the CL3108? (from a quick google i didnt find much info on that subject)

interesting that the 105mm dm23 dm33 and dm63 are actually israeli shells Produced under licence in germany (according to wiki at least :P )

That is not public info. 

CL-3108 appears to be Spanish designation IIRC. M413 is dubbed Hetz - 7 which I know was in service. As for M426 and M428 I do not know, there is no telling whether they were for export or not. IMI rarely embarked on private ventures, and it's likely they developed that munition by request of the IDF. That does not mean it bought meaningful quantities though...

Either way, these rounds exist in some capacity for potential use in an emergency, and Merkava 2 tanks are stored and occasionally drawn out for renewed service as utility vehicles. So it would not be un-historical to give them these rounds if it would help to balance them.

[SoupMcT@psn 344]

I’m pretty sure that Israel has 105mm ammunition that have figures close to M900 so later variants of the 105mm Merkava and Magachs could engage modern armor. 

[Zucc_Boi 656]

6 hours ago, SoupMcT@psn said:

I’m pretty sure that Israel has 105mm ammunition that have figures close to M900 so later variants of the 105mm Merkava and Magachs could engage modern armor. 

They can, but not sure why. Even with the M111 the Merkava 2D absolutely shreds anything in its path. Even T-72s. With just an upgrade to M413, nothing could really stop it even at long ranges. So no real reason to add M426 and M428.

If anything, a Lahat could be a better candidate. It would be a much more niche weapon, but it has top attack which would make it solid for taking shots at semi concealed targets.

The Lahat existed in 2 main versions - 105mm and 120mm. There is, however, no evidence it entered service in any meaningful quantity.

[SoupMcT@psn 344]

1 hour ago, Zucc_Boi said:

They can, but not sure why. Even with the M111 the Merkava 2D absolutely shreds anything in its path. Even T-72s. With just an upgrade to M413, nothing could really stop it even at long ranges. So no real reason to add M426 and M428.

If anything, a Lahat could be a better candidate. It would be a much more niche weapon, but it has top attack which would make it solid for taking shots at semi concealed targets.

The Lahat existed in 2 main versions - 105mm and 120mm. There is, however, no evidence it entered service in any meaningful quantity.

The Merkava Mk.2D once it’s fixed will definitely go up in BR to 9.3 at best but 9.7 most likely so that could justify M413 (DM63?) on it.

 

I envision the Merkava line something like this: 

 

Mk.1

Mk.2C

Mk.3

Mk.3 Baz

Mk.3D Dor Dalet

Mk.3 LIC or Mk.3M

Mk.4

Mk.4M

Edited December 25, 2021 by SoupMcT@psn

[GomesPT 309]

 https://youtu.be/2HDDFLEbL_M

[PARDUS IX@live 263]

argument for Tam 2C and IP for the israeli tree since eibit did the upgrades for argentina "Not Germany" seems like a similar situation to how france and germany got the sk105's.