ZTZ59D1 should be 8.3 in its current state.

[SneedSellsFeed 110]

There is absolutely no reason for this vehicle being the BR that it is.

The T-55AM-1 in the Russian tree at 8.3 has better armor spanning essentially the entire hull front and more of the turret with a much higher effectiveness. Otherwise, while they do fire the same APFSDS shell - the T-55AM-1 has a very powerful ATGM. The only advantage the ZTZ has are better thermals. While being a higher BR. Not even mentioning that its armor is bolstered by ERA, and not composite, unlike the T-55.

 

The T-62M-1 in the Russian tree at 8.7 (the same BR), has:

- A much faster turret traverse (8.9 deg/s - roughly 30% faster), which is one of the worst aspects of the ZTZ. (Edit: 8.9 deg/s stock, while the ZTZ is 5.9 deg/s stock. since the horizontal drive upgrade works in percetanges, this difference is even greater when spaded.)

- Even better armor than the T-55AM-1 which already has much better armor than the ZTZ (that isn't ERA and therefore destructible). It can reliably tank shells to its turret, even in uptiers - which is an incredible advanatage compared to the ZTZ59D1's, by comparison, one-time use ERA with no kinetic coverage on the turret and no full coverage around the hull, or side skirts that weaken HEATFS by a considerable margin that the T-62M-1 has as an unlockable modification.

- Much better ammunition roster, firing APFSDS of higher caliber and with more penetration with a similar reload. Along with a 600mm ATGM. Also, a very powerful HE shell.

- Higher top speed, both forward and reverse. With a similar hp/t. 

 

The only thing the ZTZ59D1 has over its Russian contemporaries that fire better ammunition, have better gun handling, higher mobility and most importantly - have incredibly meta armor protection, is the thermal system. (Only for the gunner). I honestly cannot comprehend that someone at Gaijin has looked at this and has let it stay like this SINCE SEPTEMBER 2019. It perplexes me. The M60 TTS in the same tech tree and the same BR is a far better vehicle by itself. This is simply a product of a complete lack of care.

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by Renamed82737

[jet_17_49 411]

I would go so far as to say that everything Chinese above 7.3 is overtiered by at least 0.3 BR with the exception of the PTL-02 and the ZTZ96.

[DoneDirtCheap 370]

100% agreed! 

The argument that it has thermals which warrant that BR compared to Soviets counterparts doesn't hold water!

 

1 hour ago, jet_17_49 said:

I would go so far as to say that everything Chinese above 7.3 is overtiered by at least 0.3 BR with the exception of the PTL-02 and the ZTZ96.

100% agreed on this as well, but would also add ZTZ96A too. I think it's fine at 9.7.

Edited January 15, 2022 by DoneDirtCheap

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

Some said it's the veteran players that caused the major clusterf of PLAGF vehicles being at least 0.3 higher than they really should; yes, it's fine for players to do too well on PLAGF vehicles, but good'ol statistic based BR BS make most CN vehicles stayed at higher BR.

 

I think we can list some CN vehicles that could lower their BR (like letting ZTZ59 back to 7.7 and M41D goes 7.7 or even 7.3 due to its underperformance, something like that); in ZTZ59D1's case...actually what they need is filling the 8.0-9.3 huge vehicle gap against the other UN Big 5s (PLAGF has the least vehicle at this range)
 

[NAYEONnaise 1,936]

3 hours ago, jet_17_49 said:

I would go so far as to say that everything Chinese above 7.3 is overtiered by at least 0.3 BR with the exception of the PTL-02 and the ZTZ96.

for me, all the chinese overtiered vehicles:

ZTZ59D1: must be 8.3, as stated here

ZTZ96: it's a worse T-72A. turret can be penetrated so easily, unlike that on the T-72A. must be 9.0

M41D: TRASH at 8.0, no stabilizer, sluggish, terrible postpen of top round. It's an AUBL HVG that is worse in everything else except optics and rough terrain mobility.

Type 59: no rangefinder, stabilizer disengages at >40kph. must be 7.7. Though it doesn't really suck at its BR, 8.7-9.0 uptiers are hell for this vehicle. You wouldn't be able to use that APHE when first off, you can't even line your sights up with an XM-803 or Leo L44 at cruise speed.

PGZ-04A: trash SAMs, guns can't penetrate sides of most MBTs at its tier even point-blank. must be 9.0 max!

ZTZ99-II: a T-90A with almost no armor. why is this still lingering at 10.7 when everything there, even Arietes/Type 90s outperform this thing by a lot of criteria? This type of MBT with no backward mobility should have armor as its saving grace, right? but why still at a BR where its armor is just laughable?

ZLT-11: This thing is considered overtiered until its reverse speed gets buffed! (and that reverse speed disappoints me so much because it's just too conservative)  must be 9.0. No contest for the Stryker because despite its powerful round, at least the Stryker has decent reverse speed, which is a vital factor in every MGS-type vehicle.

 

if someone disagrees, please prove why i'm wrong. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by NAYEONnaise

[DoneDirtCheap 370]

2 hours ago, NAYEONnaise said:

for me, all the chinese overtiered vehicles:

ZTZ59D1: must be 8.3, as stated here

ZTZ96: it's a worse T-72A. turret can be penetrated so easily, unlike that on the T-72A. must be 9.0

M41D: TRASH at 8.0, no stabilizer, sluggish, terrible postpen of top round. It's an AUBL HVG that is worse in everything else except optics and rough terrain mobility.

Type 59: no rangefinder, stabilizer disengages at >40kph. must be 7.7. Though it doesn't really suck at its BR, 8.7-9.0 uptiers are hell for this vehicle. You wouldn't be able to use that APHE when first off, you can't even line your sights up with an XM-803 or Leo L44 at cruise speed.

PGZ-04A: trash SAMs, guns can't penetrate sides of most MBTs at its tier even point-blank. must be 9.0 max!

ZTZ99-II: a T-90A with almost no armor. why is this still lingering at 10.7 when everything there, even Arietes/Type 90s outperform this thing by a lot of criteria? This type of MBT with no backward mobility should have armor as its saving grace, right? but why still at a BR where its armor is just laughable?

ZLT-11: This thing is considered overtiered until its reverse speed gets buffed! (and that reverse speed disappoints me so much because it's just too conservative)  must be 9.0. No contest for the Stryker because despite its powerful round, at least the Stryker has decent reverse speed, which is a vital factor in every MGS-type vehicle.

 

if someone disagrees, please prove why i'm wrong. 

Clearly someone doesn't play much China, if at all, and is confused by all posts in this thread....

Add PTZ-89 to your list as well!

It seems that many of these vehicles are overtiered because of good ammo, it's the only explanation I can think of!

[MO_Smart_Sharkon 882]

4 hours ago, DoneDirtCheap said:

Clearly someone doesn't play much China, if at all, and is confused by all posts in this thread....

Add PTZ-89 to your list as well!

It seems that many of these vehicles are overtiered because of good ammo, it's the only explanation I can think of!

There's a saying within the Chinese community that ”中国人处理钨的方式(How Chinese handle all the tungsten they have)", the country with most abundent W you see.

You can always find alot W in Chinese ammunitions ranging from 12G shotgun to 125 darts

[Wilhuff_Tarkin_ 467]

Not a China main myself but i like it's addition to the game and I'm currently at  9.7. I think it's a Tech Tree with great potential especially after Chinese rapid post 2000s modernisation with new tanks, IFV, planes and helicopters. I see it as a great alternative to USSR Tech Tree, with vehicles of a similar design philosophy and influences but also a domestic twist. But currently as it stands it has many, many problems.

 

1.NOT ENOUGH VEHICLES

It's more like a skeleton than actual finished tech tree. It has way too many gaps between BRs makeing a grind more punishing than necessary. There are many BR where makeing a decent lineup is almost impossible. There's planty of variants of Type 59, 69, 80, 88, 98 and so on to fill BR 8.0 and above with little to no difference in external appearance of a vehicle thus reducing development time.

 

2.NOT UNIQUE ENOUGH

China being a communist state during cold war was obviously strongly influenced by USSR and borrowed a lot of their machines and design philosophy in a process> But being a country with much different geagraphy than Russia it had to adapt their designs to their own needs. China has a number of interesting light tank designs like Type 62Gai  and amfibious Type 63A as well as more modern family of amfibious tanks  ZTD-05 and  ZBD-05. China not only has a lot of vehicles to fill TT but a lot of unique vehilces providing new experiences.

 

3.NOT ENOUGH PLAYERS

Playing at 9.7 I'm most of the time one of two or three only China TT players in a geme. Low player count means low priority for Gaijin as they can't sell too many premium vehicles and match making system isn't being fed enough information to properly blance vehicles, France has similar problem with some of its tanks being overtiered despite low performance.

 

4.TOO LITTLE TOO LATE

At current rate of 2-3 vehicles per patch and aprox 4-5 patches per year I do not expect this tech tree to be fully functional until 2024 and that is a generous prediction.

 

5.PLA AIR FORCE

J-7E is cool and all but pales in comparison with MiG23MLDs, F-4EJs, J-37s and other alike. No CAS, no counter CAS either wih PGZ95s missiles missing at point blank range. Q-5 in their current varians have no guided ordnance where most nations begin to have multiple AGM armed attackers at around 9.0(A-4B, G91). No helicopter Tech Tree either.

 

6.GENERAL LACK OF CARE

Lack of camoulfages like the modern digital patterns, lack of decorations and decals and unique features.

 

7.MIXED MATCH MAKING IN RB

Now, opinons on that matter may vey but in my opinion NATO vs Warsaw pact games are allways more interasing than mixed games which you can play anyway in AB if you choose to. This could also help with win rates a little if you pair China with Russia more often.

 

MAJOR MISSING VEHICLE AND AIRCRAFT LIST:

 

Type 62Gai - Essentially a buffed up Type 62 with new, welded turret and NVGs, upgunned tu use fully stabilised 105mm rifled gun Should play similar to TAM.

 

Type 63A - Similar to type 62 its a Type 63 amfibious hull with new welded turret and NVGs, upgunned tu use fully stabilised 105mm rifled gun. Both would fit well at aprox BR 8.0

 

Type 86-I – Improved variant of the Type 86 armed with ZPT-90 25 mm autocannon. Turret is the same as the one on the ZSL92 wheeled IFV. It is powered by a new 6V150F 29.41-litre diesel engine  which develops 400 hp (298 kW). Maximum road speed has increased to 70 km/h. The tracks have been slightly modified. The weight of the vehicle has increased to 13.6 tonnes. 350 were produced. Should play similar to Marder 1. 

 

Type 86A (ZBD-86A) – Modernization fitted with a new turret armed with a fully-stabilized ZPT-99 30 mm autocannon, a Type 86 coaxial machine gun and a missile launch rail for the SACLOS HJ-73C ATGMs. The vehicle is fitted with modernized electronics system, including thermal imaging sight, laser rangefinder, angle measurement sensor, and digital ballistic computer. The turret was equipped with two clusters of three smoke grenade launchers. Overall, it is broadly equivalent to a BMP-2.

 

ZBD-04  - Broadly equivalent to a BMP-3 armed with two plane stabilised, semi-automatic 100mm rifled gun, capable of firing both HE-FRAG rounds and the 3UBK10 ATGM and coaxial ZPT99 30mm automatic cannon. Does 65 km/h on road and 20 km/h in water.

 

ZBD-05 and ZTD-05 - amphibious tracked armored fighting vehicles armed with ZPT-99 30mm cannon turret with a HJ-73C ATGM and 105mm cannon respectively. Does 65 km/h on road and 30 km/h in water(Really fast!). Could add and interasting capiblilty for China in game, allowing  you to flank from water on certain maps

 

ZBL-08 - 8x8 IFV variant of in-game ZLT-11. Armed with 30mm and ATGMs. 

 

Type 98 - Base model of type 99 without ERA

 

Type 99A - Improved model of type 99

 

Type 96B - Improved model of type 96A

 

Type 15 - Third generation light tank armed with 105mm gun,  Excellent power to weight ratio of 30.30 hp/tonne, 27.8 hp/tonne (Armor package installed). 1000hp engine, thermal imaging sight, laser rangefinder.

 

Nanchang Q-5L - Upgraded Q-5C, with LLLTV/FLIR vision systems for a day/night capability. Infrared imaging and television cameras were mounted on nose orb. Other improvements include Head Up Display, GPS Rx, INS, TACAN, and chaff/flare dispensers. Weapons capability include the Chinese LS-500J laser-guided glide bombs with a 12 km range. Optional belly conformal fuel tank. 

 

Xi'an JH-7 - fighter-bomber, roughly comparable to SEPECAT Jaguar in it's role but with twice the carrying capacity

Maximum speed: 1,808 km/h (1,123 mph, 976 kn)

Maximum speed: Mach 1.52

Armament

Guns: 1× 23mm twin-barrel GSh-23L autocannon, 300 rounds

Hardpoints: 9 in total (6× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 9,000 kg (20,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance

Rockets: 57mm/90mm unguided rocket pods

Missiles:
Air-to-air missiles: PL-5, PL-8, PL-8, PL-9, PL-12

Anti-ship missiles: Yingji-8K, Yingji-82K

Air-to-surface missiles: CM-802A, KD-88, C-705, C-704

Anti-radiation missiles: Yingji-91, LD-10, CM-102

Bombs:

Unguided bombs

Laser-guided bombs

GB1

GB5

GB100 

Satellite-guided bombs

LS-6

FT-12

GB6

FT-2

FT-3

FT-6

Avionics
JL-10A radar

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Wilhuff_Tarkin_

[jet_17_49 411]

On 16/01/2022 at 02:31, DoneDirtCheap said:

Add PTZ-89 to your list as well!

It seems that many of these vehicles are overtiered because of good ammo, it's the only explanation I can think of!

The WZ305, 69, 69IIG and the 99-III should also be on that list. The 1st is basically just a ZSU-57-2 with proxy shells, the 2nd is an overpriced, castrated T-55A with a fancy rangefinder that can't be used because its only viable shell has no muzzle velocity, the 3rd is just at best a sidegrade to the T-55AM and the 4th is mostly a reskinned 99-II, which as already mentioned above, is basically just a sidegraded T-90A unless it receives a better dart or its laser dazzler.

Edited January 17, 2022 by jet_17_49

[DoneDirtCheap 370]

5 hours ago, jet_17_49 said:

The WZ305, 69, 69IIG and the 99-III should also be on that list. The 1st is basically just a ZSU-57-2 with proxy shells, the 2nd is an overpriced, castrated T-55A with a fancy rangefinder that can't be used because its only viable shell has no muzzle velocity, the 3rd is just at best a sidegrade to the T-55AM and the 4th is mostly a reskinned 99-II, which as already mentioned above, is basically just a sidegraded T-90A unless it receives a better dart or its laser dazzler.

Yeah,  not against that assessment either! Still, it gives me the greatest war thunder- pleasure to shoot down g-91 and A-4 earlys with WZ305!

[NAYEONnaise 1,936]

14 hours ago, jet_17_49 said:

The WZ305, 69, 69IIG and the 99-III should also be on that list. The 1st is basically just a ZSU-57-2 with proxy shells, the 2nd is an overpriced, castrated T-55A with a fancy rangefinder that can't be used because its only viable shell has no muzzle velocity, the 3rd is just at best a sidegrade to the T-55AM and the 4th is mostly a reskinned 99-II, which as already mentioned above, is basically just a sidegraded T-90A unless it receives a better dart or its laser dazzler.

99-III isn't really overtiered for me I guess? I played it and a T-72B3 on a friend's account and gosh, i've bounced DM53-L44/L55 and M829A2 a handful times in one game, unlike the B3, which got lolpenned by these rounds so quick in another game. Handles much like a slightly better B3, sans the weak sides and terrible zoom.

[aaaa23456789 308]

This tank's thermal image will be removed(according to historical accuracy) in the future and lowed to 8.3, maybe the reload rate buffed to 7.5s Aced.

 

ZTZ59D with longer type94 105mm gun will be added in the future, with thermal image and DTW-105 round, placed in 9.0

 

 

[NAYEONnaise 1,936]

On 18/01/2022 at 14:34, _____HK416_____ said:

ZTZ59D with longer type94 105mm gun will be added in the future, with thermal image and DTW-105 round, placed in 9.0

Does ZTZ59D have better turret rotation?

[aaaa23456789 308]

Just now, NAYEONnaise said:

Does ZTZ59D have better turret rotation?

no

still vertical gun stab and 520hp 

 

just a cheap update

 

Even in official manual there is no thermal. Thermal was added by local troops individually

[零号机驾驶员-绫波丽 2]

Chinese Tech Tree need more good, descent vehicles. Gaijin, plz, make Chinese TT better and take my money.

[Apfelsator 1,160]

ZTZ59D1 to 8.3 when gaijin?

 

this thing is absolutely horrible to spade/play and i doubt it will be much better once spaded.

yeah its APFSDS is good and works well and the thermals are certainly a nice gimmick but this tank not only lacks armor for its BR but much more importantly, it lacks moblity and gun handling for contemporaries at its BR range.

its definately worse then the T-55AM-1 when i compare them in matches.

 

i would take the T-55AM easily every time over the ZTZ59D1 at 8.7, in fact i regularly uptier my T-55AM with the T-62M to 8.7 and it works very well.

the ZTZ59D1 on the other hand in battlefield conditions is an awful experience, it feels like i'm driving a Maus but lacking the armor and at a full BR higher.