F-16AJ/BJ, a possible solution.

[コタリ 2,732]

Spoiler

I think I found the aircraft that can fix pretty much every shortcoming of the top tier Japanese aviation line in the near future. Primarily the lack of guided A2G munitions and the gap between the F-4EJ Kai and F-15J.

 

Prior to the finalization on the F-2 being selected for the FS-X program, General dynamics proposed a slightly modified, but unique variant of the YF-16A -specifically airframe 72-1568 testbed- as one of the shortlisted aircraft for the competition.

Spoiler

 

The F-16J outwardly is nearly identical to the American YF-16, but has many unique modifications internally shown here.

Spoiler

 

These modifications gave the F-16J rather unique weight characteristics compared to it's closest American counterpart; the F-16A blk15. The F-16AJ had a heavier empty weight of 17,105lbs vs the F-16A blk15's 16,285lbs. However the A/C GW of the F-16AJ was 24,077lbs vs the F-16A blk15's 25,200 making the F-16AJ lighter.

Spoiler

 

Another significant change to the F-16J series over it's American market counterpart is the weapons. Primarily the modification of chin pylons completely separate of the 5R and 5L pylons attached to the landing gear doors to accommodate AIM-7 sparrow missiles. This was initially planned with the F-16A OCU, but never made it past prototyping stages. This would allow the F-16 unique loadouts not present on any production F-16 such as

AIM-9 x 2 + AIM-7 x 6

AIM-9 x 6 + AIM-7 x 2

and

AIM-9 x 2 + AIM-7 x 2 + any combination of A2G ordnance

Spoiler

 

The most helpful thing for Japan would be the A2G ordnance. While GD completely stripped out the nuclear bombing systems, the non-nuclear bombing systems were left entirely intact and would have the same capacity as the YF-16 01568 it was based on.

This includes AGM-65A/B/D mavericks as well as GBU-16 1000lb LGB and GBU-10 2000lb LGB with accommodation of an ATLIS II TPD

Spoiler

 

It is difficult to find if a specific example of the F-16J was built, but with airframe 01568 being almost identical to what an F-16J would become, all needed flight data was already in hand. It might've been deemed unnecessary as it was a proven airframe and could've entered full scale production immediately.

 

As this is an airframe specifically tailored to Japan and was essentially a complete project I don't see an issue with adding it in game into the Japanese tree.

 

(I will probably make a suggestion on this, but wanted to test the waters and see if anyone could pick up some more info on this thing first)

Edited January 21, 2022 by AnimeThighs

[コタリ 2,732]

Also on a somewhat related note of US aircraft modified specifically for Japanese requirements. The 2nd F11F-1F prototype was modified for Japan internally named G-98J-11. All modifications were complete and it was only a few months from flying until the program was canceled in favor of the F-104J. It is however a loooooot harder to find info on the G-98J-11 than on the F-16J apparently and that was already difficult enough. 

https://geolog.mydns.jp/www.geocities.co.jp/protoplanes/F11F-1F.html

Spoiler

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by AnimeThighs

[EL337GH0ST 195]

No, absolutely not. This is worse than the suggestions for Britain getting Abrams' and Leopards.

Let's see why not:

• Never built/tested
• "Better" than the US F-16, which would be BS if added before something like the F-16C, same as the F-4EJ Kai
• Japan doesn't deserve to get something they didn't even test, if so, the US should get the F-2

[コタリ 2,732]

1 hour ago, EL337GH0ST said:

Never built/tested

What is there to build or test? They had all the necessary flight data and there was no significant structural changes to the aircraft. The F-16J was probably closer to entering full scale production than most prototypes we have in game. All that was missing was a signature.

1 hour ago, EL337GH0ST said:

"Better" than the US F-16, which would be BS if added before something like the F-16C, same as the F-4EJ Kai

Who said this thing needs to be added tomorrow or even next patch. Also boohoo countries improved on US tech exported to them. Regardless an F-16C would be better than an F-16J. If you want to cry about it then cry to Lockheed and the US government because without them meddling in the FS-X program there wouldn't be an F-16J or F-2 and Japan would instead be flying a jet closer to a eurofighter typhoon.

 

1 hour ago, EL337GH0ST said:

Japan doesn't deserve to get something they didn't even test, if so, the US should get the F-2

It's a plane specifically designed for the Japanese market and to be flown by Japan. The F-2 was developed by Japan for the Japanese market and there was no intention to sell for the US market. Lockheed didn't even hold up their end of the bargain as they bailed pretty much right after giving Japan the general shape of the F-16 resulting in the F-2 being 95% new design.

[Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383]

Given the limited number of aircraft that can be added after the F-4EJ kai in contrast to the far larger number of America, Russian, and European aircraft that can be added; I would support this suggestion if it ever becomes a official one. It doesn't deviate too far from reality, has most of the stuff ground out, and Japan will need anything it can to fluff out the upcoming top tier.

[丨ō益ō丨 123]

If more information can be dug up on this, it might make for a more convincing addition, although given its unique status as basically a proposal (no airframe actually modified as the F-16AJ?) I wouldn't be surprised it if the devs deemed it a premium or squadron vehicle (IF they decide to add it) after all the other nations get their 4th generation fighter equivalents. (I wonder what livery it'll even get)

But Japan isn't going to be getting anything until the US hits more advanced F-16s and F-15C/Ds so it would be a good fit somewhere between the F-4EJ Kai and F-15CJ/DJ/F-2

Edited January 20, 2022 by KILL001

[コタリ 2,732]

36 minutes ago, KILL001 said:

If more information can be dug up on this, it might make for a more convincing addition, although given its unique status as basically a proposal (no airframe actually modified as the F-16AJ?)

I sent an email to GD to see if they had a full copy of the brochure archived somewhere. However I think the more important thing would be to find info on YF-16 72-1568. The more I look into airframe 1568, the more I realize GD basically wanted to sell that exact airframe with all the special modifications it received as a test bed as a serialized model. The F-16AJ uses the YF-16 style landing gear and I even ended up finding a pic of 1568 with the landing gear door pylons.

Spoiler

 

Also based on the wording of the modifications for the F-16AJ it seem likes there was at least a partial conversion. ie

"Ejection seat has been relocated

"Provisions have been added"

"radar altimeter is installed"

vs modifications that seemly haven't been done yet

"a fluid-dispensing deicing system is readily installable at the option of JDA"

"alternate Flyable Readiness aircraft is defined"

 

Just based on the use of past tense language of some of these modifications it seems like they were done to 01568.

Also in 1980, right before the F-16AJ, 01568 was dropped from USAF inventory which just further leads me to believe they wouldn't think twice about making these Japanese specific changes to this spare, now unused airframe.

 

1 hour ago, KILL001 said:

(I wonder what livery it'll even get)

 

Based on promotional artwork of the time for the program including an official Mitsubishi model of what the F-2 would look like, it seems like it was just a standard NATO gray with white bordered Hinomaru.

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, KILL001 said:

But Japan isn't going to be getting anything until the US hits more advanced F-16s and F-15C/Ds so it would be a good fit somewhere between the F-4EJ Kai and F-15CJ/DJ/F-2

Oh yeah for sure, but an F-16AJ will appear waaaaaaaaaaay sooner than an F-2 and would appear slightly before an F-15J pre-MSIP. From the sounds of things 4th gen aircraft should be hitting the game this year if not next patch and I wouldn't be surprised if the game was at a place where the F-16AJ could fit in by the end of this year.

[Suizu_Aika 59]

this is very interesting jet and I never heard this before

[a101a_gif 0]

This seems like a decent idea for Japan but I think there other ways to a address the gap in capability between the F-4EJ Kai/F-1 and the F-15J/F-2.

For example giving the F-4EJ Kai AiM-9L's could be a way to bolster Japans capability's until top tier air moves to the level of aircraft like the F-2.

As for the aircraft itself I have no issues with it though I'd prefer that it gets added along side a F-16C for the US in the same patch.

[Suizu_Aika 59]

15 minutes ago, a101a_gif said:

This seems like a decent idea for Japan but I think there other ways to a address the gap in capability between the F-4EJ Kai/F-1 and the F-15J/F-2.

For example giving the F-4EJ Kai AiM-9L's could be a way to bolster Japans capability's until top tier air moves to the level of aircraft like the F-2.

As for the aircraft itself I have no issues with it though I'd prefer that it gets added along side a F-16C for the US in the same patch.

can F-4EJ KAI carry AIM-9P-1 to 5 or it cannot?

[Wiggly_Armed_Man 2,383]

16 minutes ago, a101a_gif said:

This seems like a decent idea for Japan but I think there other ways to a address the gap in capability between the F-4EJ Kai/F-1 and the F-15J/F-2.

For example giving the F-4EJ Kai AiM-9L's could be a way to bolster Japans capability's until top tier air moves to the level of aircraft like the F-2.

As for the aircraft itself I have no issues with it though I'd prefer that it gets added along side a F-16C for the US in the same patch.

We'll certainly see the F-4EJ kai upgraded as time goes on and earlier aircraft (F-4EJ and F-1) also have AIM-9L potential. The kai has AAM-3 potential, which is a leagues above that. So it's pretty much a guarantee that it'll be getting AIM-9L in the future. Though it is questionable if the F-1 or F-4EJ will get it despite using it.

 

Just now, Kuromi_Serika said:

can F-4EJ KAI carry AIM-9P-1 to 5 or it cannot?

It can, but Japan only ever used AIM-9P-3.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Wiggly_Armed_Man

[丨ō益ō丨 123]

7 hours ago, AnimeThighs said:

I sent an email to GD to see if they had a full copy of the brochure archived somewhere. However I think the more important thing would be to find info on YF-16 72-1568. The more I look into airframe 1568, the more I realize GD basically wanted to sell that exact airframe with all the special modifications it received as a test bed as a serialized model. The F-16AJ uses the YF-16 style landing gear and I even ended up finding a pic of 1568 with the landing gear door pylons.

Hide contents

 

Also based on the wording of the modifications for the F-16AJ it seem likes there was at least a partial conversion. ie

"Ejection seat has been relocated

"Provisions have been added"

"radar altimeter is installed"

vs modifications that seemly haven't been done yet

"a fluid-dispensing deicing system is readily installable at the option of JDA"

"alternate Flyable Readiness aircraft is defined"

 

Just based on the use of past tense language of some of these modifications it seems like they were done to 01568.

Also in 1980, right before the F-16AJ, 01568 was dropped from USAF inventory which just further leads me to believe they wouldn't think twice about making these Japanese specific changes to this spare, now unused airframe.

 

 

Based on promotional artwork of the time for the program including an official Mitsubishi model of what the F-2 would look like, it seems like it was just a standard NATO gray with white bordered Hinomaru.

Hide contents

 

Oh yeah for sure, but an F-16AJ will appear waaaaaaaaaaay sooner than an F-2 and would appear slightly before an F-15J pre-MSIP. From the sounds of things 4th gen aircraft should be hitting the game this year if not next patch and I wouldn't be surprised if the game was at a place where the F-16AJ could fit in by the end of this year.

 

Neat, I'm convinced, it'll be an interesting tossup and variety in the future for the Japanese air tree when the F-4EJ Kai gets the fully upgraded loadout (AAM-3+Aim-7M) compared to the F-16AJ/FS-X which will get slightly downgraded armaments (Aim-9L+ Aim-7M) in exchange for better overall performance and ground pound capability

 

+1 from me

Edited January 21, 2022 by KILL001

[コタリ 2,732]

9 minutes ago, KILL001 said:

F-16AJ/FS-X which will get slightly downgraded armaments (Aim-9L+ Aim-7M) in exchange for better overall performance and ground pound capability

Here is how I can see Gaijin adding the F-16J

F-16AJ as a TT after the F-1.

F-16BJ as a premium perhaps with reduced weaponry (AIM-7E-DF or AIM-7F + AIM-9P3 or P5).

The most controversial 3rd option:

F-16BJ FRA as a squadron vehicle.

With a removed gun, radar, and RWR, the FRA would be left with 6 sidewinders and AN/ALE-40 Flare/Chaff, but also retain it's bombing computer giving Japan a ground attacker which could fit at 11.0 alongside the Type 10 in BR. The AJ/BJ would probably slot in at 11.7/12.0 which isn't a good match for the 11.0 Type 10. However while the AJ/BJ were actually modified airframes, the wording clearly shows that the BJ FRA was a readily available, but only planned further modification of the BJ. Maybe with the AJ/BJ already coming, Gaijin could be a little more open to the idea especially for a plane that would be even worse than an F-16A block 1 and wouldn't really shake up the meta at all by being added, but idk.

[コタリ 2,732]

Good news. I managed to find someone with the full 28 pages of the brochure who is sending my the scans this upcoming weekend, so we should be able to find out a lot more on the program. I also made a suggestion awaiting approval.

Edited January 25, 2022 by AnimeThighs

[Epsilon160 270]

Anything to get AGMs on a Japanese aircraft

[コタリ 2,732]

Here is the full brochure

https://imgur.com/a/gZ97a5E

Also from the looks of things, this actually appears to be project from the 1970s F-X program competing against the F-14 and F-15 rather than the 1980/90s F-X program which led to the F-2. If that is the case, then I'm pretty sure the F-16AJ was likely flight tested by Japanese air crews. At the October 1976 Tokyo Aerospace Show held in Iruma air show an F-14A and TF-15A competed in multiple live tests including a mock dog fight between the two (I recall that the F-14A won). Afterwards a Japanese delegation was sent to the US to evaluate the F-14, F-15, and F-16.

Now I'm curious if there was a similar program to the F-16AJ with an F-15AJ and F-14AJ.

[AngelPipes 31]

Yes fine plane whit some not that stypid bombs

[Yappyyyyy 3]

 https://weibo.com/7378302827/JorBifwit?type=repost look at this page

[jrs1rules 1]

I mean usa would have to get it first to for japan to get it.

 

[Fireraid233 4,274]

17 minutes ago, jrs1rules said:

I mean usa would have to get it first to for japan to get it.

 

That makes no sense since it was an F-16 purposed for the jasdf. With that logic the EJ Kai should be in the U.S TT

[llSolitairell@psn 5,728]

7 minutes ago, Fireraid233 said:

That makes no sense since it was an F-16 purposed for the jasdf. With that logic the EJ Kai should be in the U.S TT

 

I think he means F-16s in general

[Fireraid233 4,274]

4 minutes ago, llSolitairell@psn said:

 

I think he means F-16s in general

Ah ok my mistake.

[Sir Rebral Palsy 2,423]

If the F-16 Fighting Falcon is added, it should be implemented just like how the F-104 Starfighters were. 

 

Every nation should receive an F-16A early block version in the same exact update.

 

[jrs1rules 1]

12 hours ago, Fireraid233 said:

That makes no sense since it was an F-16 purposed for the jasdf. With that logic the EJ Kai should be in the U.S TT

But what would match the f16 in game?

[Epsilon160 270]

3 hours ago, jrs1rules said:

But what would match the f16 in game?

As said before he misunderstood your statement, he thought you were saying that the J variants should go into the US tree first, not the F-16 in general. I feel like it would make sense to introduce the FRA around the same time as the first F-16s are introduced to the US tree, as it would lack the extra Sparrows that the AJ and BJ would get and would thus have much more comparable A2A and A2G capabilities.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Epsilon160