Loaned Ram II Tanks

[Thatz 635]

British Lent RAM II Tanks 

I cannot find any photos of the few chassis' of the RAM II tank that the Canadian's used.

 

Today I am bringing you a Canadian special but I do not mean Maple Syrup or Poutine (Fries with Gravy and Cheese Curds [It’s good trust me]), but I have today with me the Ram II tank but not for Canada for Britain. During the war Canada loaned out a hand full of their Ram II tank’s to British Forces. I am not including any tanks listed as Struck Off Strength or tanks that were used only as tow, kangaroos(converted into personal carriers), or wasp’s (Flamethrower). 

Currently In game we have the Canadian Ram II in the American tech tree, that is under the Canadian Flag. But this suggestion is for the RAM II 6pdr version that served under the British Army as a loaned vehicle.

Specifications:

 

History:

Spoiler

On 4 Oct 41, C.M.H.Q. exhorted N.D.H.Q. that the War Office had chosen to give names to existing, and all future, sorts of tanks to forestall disarray between various kinds and signs of heavily clad battling vehicles. The Canadian Corps Commander suggested that the name RAM be taken on account of the Modified M3 Cruiser Tank being delivered in Canada. The tank furnished with the 2-pounder firearm, was to be known as the RAM I and the tank outfitted with the 6-pounder weapon, to be known as RAM II. This suggestion was supported by N.D.H.Q. what's more, the strategy laid out that future kinds of tanks delivered in Canada would be named after animals.

By February, 1942, fifty Ram I tanks had been gathered and were either at, or in transit to, objections. Ten had been held in Canada and the excess forty sent to the United Kingdom. This was the all out number of Ram I tanks constructed and creation was currently thought upon the Ram II. The Ram I, as it fell off the mechanical production system and conveyed, was obviously not a very remarkable battling vehicle according to the Director of Mechanization (Col R.A. MacFarlane). He encouraged that creation be changed to the M4 tank at the earliest opportunity and had this to say of the Ram I tanks:
A study of the defects of Ram I tanks already produced by Montreal Locomotive Works reveals a number of points to which inspection took exception but which were overlooked in order that a good production showing could be made. Some of the deformities were minor, yet outlandish when it is viewed that each tank costs between $50,000. And, $100,000. So, the Ram I tanks previously created are not, as of now, fighting tanks would require extensive alteration before they would be in a fit condition to battle. 25. During the early piece of 1942, the United States War Department inquired as to whether they were ready to acknowledge "Ram" tanks, as produced by the Montreal Locomotive Works, as Lease Land tanks. The U.S. Arms had as a primary concern the craving to build the result of tanks from the Montreal Locomotive Works with the help of the American Locomotive Company. The British connoted their eagerness to acknowledge such tanks, and the United States in like manner submitted a request for 1,351 tanks through War Supplies Limited (a Canadian Crown Company set up in May, 1941 to arrange weapons orders set by the United States in Canada). At the time this request was acknowledged the Department of Munitions and Supply acknowledged capital help from the U.S. Weapons all together that the program could continue.

At a meeting of the British Tank Commission with Canadian authorities held in Ottawa on 26 Mar 42 it was decided that the Montreal Locomotive Works would go into the production of the U.S. M4A1 type of tank at such time as productive capacity could be established without interruption of production.

During the early piece of 1943, the United States request for 1,351 Ram tanks was dropped, allowing all Ram tanks being created to be appropriated to meet the necessities of the Canadian Army program. The crossing out of the United States request achieved a re-game plan of the Ram tank program. The overhauled program required the development of a sum of 1,899 Ram II tanks at the pace of 150 every month to be finished by 15 Jun 43 when the Montreal Locomotive Works would focus upon the completion of 1,200 M4 tanks which were to be finished by February, 1944.

Deliveries of the Ram tanks were completed on 11 Aug 43. Statistics prepared by the Directorate of Mechanization, N.D.H.Q. show that an aggregate of 1,948 (including 50 Ram I) tanks were conveyed; 1,671 of these were transported to the United Kingdom and 277 held in Canada. These figures do not agree with those given by the Department of Munitions and Supply which show 1,949 tanks being created. How this error of one tank came about has not been found. 29. The Ram didn't head off to war as a tank, in spite of the fact that it performed entirely important assistance in preparing Canadian defensively covered divisions. Considerable numbers of the Rams did reach the battle field, however, as armoured personnel carriers, ammunition vehicles and "Badger" flame-throwers. The Ram chassis also formed the basis for the Canadian "Sexton" self-propelled 25-pounder gun.

The specific chassis numbers I am suggesting and the unit/division/regiment they were loaned to:

CT40672 - Loaned in May 1944 to 13th Royal Horse Artillery, Yorkshire. 
[Include unit Symbol]
At the time this unit was a part of the 11th Armoured Division in the VIII Corps serving as a part of the British Second Army and as a part of the 21st Army Group. The 21st Army Group was composed of the British Second Army and the First Canadian Army.
(I cannot find specifics about where the 11th Armoured Division was in May 1944, however the 11th did land on D-day but D+7 on Juno Beach)

CT40679 - Loaned in October 1944 to 153rd Field Regiment Royal Artillery. 
[Include unit Symbol]
From what I can find at that time it was attached to the Guards Armoured Division part of the Guards Support Group. They originally became part of the Guards Armoured Division in 1941. The Guards Armoured Division was a part of the VIII Corps serving as the British Second Army under command of the 21st Army Group. The 21st Army Group was composed of the British Second Army and the First Canadian Army. 
(Some sources are conflicting about if the 153 was attached to the Guards Armoured Division in 1944 so say that 153 left the Group in 1942 others state they were part of the Group until 1945)
    This is purely my guess as the reason/source of why the tank was loaned, but in September 1944 the Guards Armoured Group led the XXX corps attack during Operation Market Garden. The XXX corps were also a part of the 21st Army Group under the British Second Army. I can assume the loaning of  the tank happened after Market Garden from one of the Canadian divisions that were in the First Canadian Army . [This is purely guess and I have no facts to back up the claim that the tank came from one of these units but all other facts are correct]

CT40705 - Loaned in October 1944 to 6th Royal Horse Artillery, Yorkshire.
[Include unit Symbol]
(I can't find sources that 100% confirm which group the 6th RHA was tied to but I can find a few sources mentioning it was tied to the 7th Armoured Division AKA “Desert Rats” which is a part of XXX Corps in the British Second Army under the 21st Army Group. [according to source 6th RHA was was re-tilted to 2nd RHA in 1906, which doesn’t make a whole lot of sense]
http://www.desertrats.org.uk/orgartillery.htm#RHA2 )

CT40737 - Loaned in October 1944 to 6th Royal Horse Artillery.
[Check CT40705 for information]

CT40738 - Loaned in October 1944 to 153rd Field Regiment Royal Artillery.
[Check CT40679 for information, repeating it would be pointless]

CT40783 - Loan in October 1944 to the Royal Army MT School
(Can't find specifics but it’s assumed it was Royal Military Academy Sandhurst)

CT40789 - Loaned in May 1944 to 13th Royal Horse Artillery, Yorkshire. 
[Check CT40672 for information]

CT40815 - Loaned in May 1944 to 13th Royal Horse Artillery, Yorkshire. 
[Check CT40672 for information]

CT40872 - Loaned in October 1944 to 153rd Field Regiment Royal Artillery. 
[Check CT40679 for information]

 

Videos:

 

 

 

RAM PDF from (Design Record Canadian Developed Military Vehicles World War II Volume 3 Tanks and Tank type Vehicles):

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sources:

Spoiler

https://web.archive.org/web/20160316020455/http://ramtank.ca/ram_mk2_4.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicestershire_Yeomanry#154th_Field_Regiment,_Royal_Artillery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guards_Armoured_Division
https://www.unithistories.com/units_british/RA_FdRgt.html#153%20Fd
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guards_Armoured_Division
https://britishfriendsofnormandy.org.uk/normandy-campaign-history/divisional-order-of-the-battle/11th-armoured-division

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11th_Armoured_Division_(United_Kingdom)
https://sites.google.com/view/11th-armoured-division/home?authuser=0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honourable_Artillery_Company#13th_(HAC)_Regiment,_RHA
http://www.desertrats.org.uk/orgartillery.htm#RHA2
https://web.archive.org/web/20180326123911/http://www.ramtank.ca/ramhist1.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_tank
Design Record Canadian Developed Military Vehicles World War II Volume 3 Tanks and Tank type Vehicles
https://web.archive.org/web/20180326123911/http://www.ramtank.ca/ramhist1.htm

Edited April 4, 2022 by Thatz

[leroyonly 4,310]

Open for discussion. 

[Headnaught 502]

Absolutely +1. Kind of a travesty this isn't already in the British tech tree to be honest

[Maj_David_Currie 28]

They were loaned to the Brits, and quickly had the main guns removed. They were converted into mobile OPs (which is why your notes have them listed as going to artillery units - they were not gun tanks)

[Thatz 635]

8 hours ago, DV_Currie_VC said:

They were loaned to the Brits, and quickly had the main guns removed. They were converted into mobile OPs (which is why your notes have them listed as going to artillery units - they were not gun tanks)

That would make sense, I couldn't find any any information to what they did to them after there were lent, however when they were lent they were in cruiser configuration 

[Milocat 4,848]

I can't +1 this hard enough, we definitely should see a Ram II in the British tree.    I've maintained for the longest time that the Canadian vehicles should be in the British tree and not the American one anyway but what do I know?  

[Maj_David_Currie 28]

1 hour ago, Thatz said:

That would make sense, I couldn't find any any information to what they did to them after there were lent, however when they were lent they were in cruiser configuration 

Most were turned into OPs, with fake gun barrels, or Kangaroo apcs. 

[Thatz 635]

8 minutes ago, DV_Currie_VC said:

Most were turned into OPs, with fake gun barrels, or Kangaroo apcs. 

Again as I said I do not know anything that happened after they were lent them. However with only 9 chassis being lent to UK I'm unsure about how many or what if they were converted into anything. I was stating at the time that Canada handed over the keys they were in the normal work cruiser configuration. Theses are the lent chassis and not including any struck of strength tanks which are not valid suggestions. 

since there was only 9 chassis and by records I can find some of these artillery units had cromwells and other such tanks/vehicles, its possible they they left them in their cruiser configuration but that is unknown and I had difficulty tracking what happened to each tank after they were loaned to the British.

[eleks12 1,079]

+1 

[Valcour 1,141]

+2 as I would love to see both versions in the UK tree.

 

[Thatz 635]

A few more interesting photos I found:

 

[Fireraid233 4,274]

+1

[Jarms 1,556]

I just don't see why Gaijin don't just move the one in the US tree to the British one. We now have the 3.7 Inch Ram and Skink. 

[Rambolf 371]

I'm sure there's a British ram in the files

[Headnaught 502]

 

Good picture from Imperial War Museums collection of British personnel maintaining Ram II tanks, April 25, 1944. Looks like these two are OP tanks, though.

 

IWM also has some pictures of Rams in exercises at REME Aborfield in 1943, don't know what you guys would make of it though... whether it was owned by the British or Canadians at the time is unclear to me. These two have the early hull type.

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Headnaught

[Thatz 635]

@Headnaught From the photos you posted
Top photo: The tank in the front is RAM II Late I believe to be CT159710 which was Jan 1944, shown as Struck Off Strength to the British, delivered to 8 AFV Depot, Leicester and that photo was taken on April 25th 1944. (I did not include Struck Off Strength as it was just too expensive to send it back to Canada so alot of tanks were left in UK) https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205201720

2nd photo is CT39818 which was a RAM mk 1
 

Spoiler

Contract CDLV 283 
C Sqn, 10th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Fort Garry Horse) & 27th (Canadian) Armoured Regiment (Sherbrooke Fusiliers Regiment)
9 Aug 42 - UK. Veh loaned to A Sqn for exercise - Sqn Movement Order, Regt War Diary, Can NA Microfilm T-12695/1468
4 May 43 - Aldershot, UK. Veh fm 27 CAR to 1 CBOD - 27 CAR War Diary, Can NA Microfilm, T-12756, p.884 
8 May 43 - UK. Veh to Winget Ltd for convertion to Ram ARV 
4 Sep 43 - Veh convertion complete - 11 Sep 43 - Veh converted and shiped out fm Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893 
Jan 1944, shown as ARV held by CMHQ
Feb 1944, shown as ARV
Oct 1944, shown as ARV, held in stock
15 Jun 45 - Veh listed as held on stock against Canadian census charge - Canadian Archives

 

3rd photo: Really unsure what tank this is or the story behind it.

4th photo: Really unsure what tank this is or the story behind it.

Possibly photos 2-4 are all the same tank but I am not sure at all

 

 

[Headnaught 502]

1 hour ago, Thatz said:

8 May 43 - UK. Veh to Winget Ltd for convertion to Ram ARV 
4 Sep 43 - Veh convertion complete - 11 Sep 43 - Veh converted and shiped out fm Winget Ltd - Can GHQ Tank Files, T-17893 

 

Probably converted to ARV in that photo as they were testing a recovery winch on the front plate. 2-4 are the same tank, yes

[AVROVULCANXH558 349]

+1