french td 5 cm PaK 38 L/60 auf P 204(f). Vichy France's Frankenstank

[CaID 8,992]

 

i would like to make an interresting and odd suggestion for france, the 5 cm PaK 38 L/60 auf P 204(f). a french Pakpuma

 

 

i propose this vehicles for france and not for Germany. the reason is simple, despite to be designed by the Vichy France, it was using a french vehicles, and in services in the occupied territory of France where a lot of the German units was using french collaborator and the only vehicles that was known ended up in the hand of the FFI which was the french sleeping army that took arms against the German as soon the wind had turn. knowing that outside having designed the vehicles, the German used it very little while the french did used it, i would say this would be better in the French TT and not in the German.

 

the Panzerspahwagen P. 204(f) mit 5cm kwk 38 L/60 was a up-gunned version of the AMD 35 which was a very appreciated armoured car used by France during WW2. the German liked the AMD 35 as much the French did, this is why they used the captured AMD 35 under the name of Panzerspahwagen P. 204(f) after the surrender of france. the captured vehicles was usually used without major modification for the occupation of the captured territory but also in the eastern front against the Russian as reconnaissance vehicles.

knowing the allied may land in mainland Europe at any time, the Vichy France, a puppet state of Germany, had decide to equip the Panzerspahwagen P. 204(f) with the 50mm pak 38 L/60 in order to have the capacity to fight the Allied tanks. but this was for nothing, as the FFI had captured the Panzerspahwagen P. 204(f) mit 5cm pak 38 L/60 and used it against the German. in 1944 the Panzerspahwagen P. 204(f) mit 5cm kwk 38 L/60 was used by the Besnier's Squadron which was famous to be using the Captured German material.

 

Firepower

the main armament been a German 50mm pak 38 L/60, this armored car will feature some decent firepower against the armoured targets. the gun whould be rather affective against most target from rank 1 to rank 3. with a decent fire-rate, god accuracy and the used of APHE rounds, the firpower will not lacking. the turret reotation limit is unknown but it is possible it could turn on 360° and the elevation is also unknown. the ammo load is another thing that is unknown. in overall a lot of information are missing, but if they are missing, it reamain that they are likely to be enough for the game's purpose. the secondary armament include a MG32 or MG34 mounted on the top of the turret for close defence.

 

50 mm PaK38					Turret rotation speed (°/s)					Reloading rate (seconds)
Mode	Capacity	Vertical	Horizontal	Stabilizer	Stock	Upgraded	Full	Expert	Aced	Stock	Full	Expert	Aced
Arcade	?	-5°/+18° ?	±180° ?	N/A	13.3	18.4	22.4	24.8	26.4	7.67	6.79	6.25	5.90
Realistic					8.3	9.8	11.9	13.2	14.0

Ammunition

Penetration statistics
Ammunition	Type of warhead	Penetration @ 0° Angle of Attack (mm)
		10 m	100 m	500 m	1,000 m	1,500 m	2,000 m
PzGr 39	APC	106	102	85	68	54	43
PzGr 40/1	APCR	130	121	90	62	43	29
PzGr 40	APCR	137	126	88	56	36	23
Sprgr. 38	HE	5	5	5	5	5	5

Shell details
Ammunition	Type of warhead	Velocity (m/s)	Projectile Mass (kg)	Fuse delay (m)	Fuse sensitivity (mm)	Explosive Mass (TNT equivalent) (g)	Ricochet
							0%	50%	100%
PzGr 39	APC	835	2.05	1.2	9	28.9	48°	63°	71°
PzGr 40/1	APCR	1,130	1.07	N/A	N/A	N/A	66°	70°	72°
PzGr 40	APCR	1,180	0.9	N/A	N/A	N/A	66°	70°	72°
Sprgr. 38	HE	870	1.82	0	0.1	170	79°	80°	81°

 

Mobility

the P. 204(f) mit 5cm's weight is unknown, it is quit possible it stay around the same weight as the AMD 35. until the real weight is found, i propose to use 8.2 tonnes as place holder. the engine provide 115 hp which give the vehicles a  power/weight of 14.02 hp/ton. the armoured car reach 72 km/h on road and 40 km/h offroad which make it a pretty mobile vehicles. it feature a 4 speed gear box with a Reverse converter which allow it to go as fast backward than forward making it particularly nimble.

Game Mode	Max Speed (km/h)		Weight (tons)	Engine power (horsepower)		Power-to-weight ratio (hp/ton)
	Forward	Reverse		Stock	Upgraded	Stock	Upgraded
Arcade	80	80	8.2	163	200	19.18	23.53
Realistic	72	72		99	115	11.34	14.02

Protection

the turret armour is unknown, but can possibly be 14.5mm which is a usual thickeness for the similar modification made by the german, the hull is unchanged from the AMD 35 which offer a decent protection of 15mm all around and 20-26mm on the front. this armour level can decently protect the vehicles against the different armament, including the 12.7mm at some distance.the crew of 5 men is pretty good.

Armour	Front (Slope angle)	Sides	Rear	Roof
Hull	20 mm (22°) Upper plate 15 mm (66°) Upper glacis 26 mm Lower plate 15 mm (38°) Lower glacis	15 mm Hull side 20 mm Driver viewport	15 mm (23°) Crew compartment 15 mm (2°) Rear plate 15 mm (44°) Lower glacis	15 mm (24°) Front glacis 7 mm Crew compartment 7 mm (8°) Engine compartment
Turret	14.5 mm ?	14.5 mm ?	14.5 mm ?	N/a

 

Specifications
Mass	8.2 metric tonnes
Length	4.79 m with gun
Width	2.01 m
Height	2.31 m
Crew	4
Armor	20 mm
Main armament	50mm Pak 38
Secondary armament	7.5 mm Reibel machine gun
Engine	Panhard SK 105 hp
Suspension	leaf spring
Ground clearance	0.35 m
Operational range	300 km
Maximum speed	72 km/h

 

source

Les Véhicules Blindés Français, 1900-1944

Hide contents

https://warspot.ru/17854-pushka-pobolshe-dlya-frantsuzskogo-razvedchika

https://www.wwiivehicles.com/france/vehicle/armored-cars/panhard-p178-armored-car.asp

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panhard_178

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww2/france/Panhard-178_AMD-35.php

http://www.club-panhard-france.net/Site/index.php/29-la-gamme-panhard/les-modeles-militaires/68-les-vehicules-militaires

http://www.minitracks.fr/amd35_tr14.htm

http://www.warwheels.net/Panhard178B_index.html

http://amd-35.narod.ru/AMD35/AMD35_main.htm

https://www.armedconflicts.com/5-cm-PaK-38-L-60-auf-P-204-f-t44250

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by CaID

[kurururocks 210]

Open for discussion

[RAYhill 43]

+1 would give low tier that bit more extra mobility

[FrizBeee 229]

A surprise to hear this modification has been done by Vichy France before being taken by FFI, i though it was like the Pz Spähwagen P 204(f), done by the german

[Abaddon75 460]

30 minutes ago, Frizare said:

A surprise to hear this modification has been done by Vichy France before being taken by FFI, i though it was like the Pz Spähwagen P 204(f), done by the german

ngl that part surprised me aswell I remember seeing other models in german service, so it really looks weird

Edit :
or are those some movie props?

Spoiler

Anyway more pictures of the french one :
(last ones are really low quality sorry for that)

Spoiler

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Abaddon75

[CaID 8,992]

1 hour ago, Abaddon75 said:

ngl that part surprised me aswell I remember seeing other models in german service, so it really looks weird

Edit :
or are those some movie props?

Hide contents

Anyway more pictures of the french one :
(last ones are really low quality sorry for that)

Reveal hidden contents

 

 

1 hour ago, Frizare said:

A surprise to hear this modification has been done by Vichy France before being taken by FFI, i though it was like the Pz Spähwagen P 204(f), done by the german

 

well, Germany had took over Vichy a bit before the invasion of Normandy. so pretty much all the Vichy equipment fall in German hand.

 

for the other short barrelled 50mm, this one was destroyed and not captured by the FFI

[TERVEPIG3 23]

isnt this better a Vehicle for the German Tree? i doesnt see clearly the Point for giving it more to the France Tree instead of the German

[CaID 8,992]

7 hours ago, TERVEPIG3 said:

isnt this better a Vehicle for the German Tree? i doesnt see clearly the Point for giving it more to the France Tree instead of the German

1 - the german didn't built it
2 - the german barely used it
3 - the german have equivalent and better
4 - it was used by the french
5 - even in the German services, it was used by the vichy french soldiers

6 - France do not have any equivalent

7- its a french chassis

 

recall me why it would be better for the German?

 

in term of performance, this vehicles would be a weaker Sdkfz 234/2

Edited June 20, 2022 by CaID

[onemax9000 1,242]

+1 I would love to have it 

[Headnaught 502]

Theoretically, to settle any disputes, the vehicle could be added to both trees: one for Germany under the Vichy banner, and one for France. However I would also say this belongs better in the French tech tree than the German one. Germany already has the Sd.Kfz. 234/2, after all. Either way, +1

Edited June 21, 2022 by Headnaught

[Milocat 4,848]

Wacky and cool, +1 for sure, would love to see it.  

[Atomeur 529]

I like this one. I always saw it during my researches on Panhard Vehicles, next to Panhard with 47mm.

A Deck with this vehicle, the Panhard 178B and the Panhard 178 classical will be very very funny

 

[hienapunk 1,064]

On 21/06/2022 at 13:48, Headnaught said:

Theoretically, to settle any disputes, the vehicle could be added to both trees: one for Germany under the Vichy banner, and one for France. However I would also say this belongs better in the French tech tree than the German one. Germany already has the Sd.Kfz. 234/2, after all. Either way, +1

 

Give it as regular to french and premium to Germany.

[halflings1335@live 46]

+1 because it was eventually recaptured by the french anyway, would be really cool to have

[Spr4yz 59]

This would fill in the gap around between Tier 1 and 2 quite well in the French tree, and it's nice to have another vehicle with APHE instead of just solid AP.
Grinding Britain's and France's tech trees with just solid AP is not fun, lol. Just another reason why I'm all for it.

[Kasukaru 2,164]

Good one for France. Germany already has such a plethora of vehicles at this level... +1

[MS_Phantasm 51]

Despite them being fascist cowards, having a Vichy France vehicle in the tree would flesh out it's history.

[FrizBeee 229]

8 hours ago, MS_Phantasm said:

Despite them being fascist cowards, having a Vichy France vehicle in the tree would flesh out it's history.

to be clear, there is probably no link with the Vichy french state and this vehicule: the Panhard 178 was a pre war model, then captured by the german (1940 or 1942) and THEN it was modified to fit a 50mm pak gun (short or long like here) in a open turret

Spoiler

from BRAEUER Luc Les Chars de La Résistance, it said " ...a 50mm gun mounted by the germans..."

 

This vehicule in particular with a 5cm kwk 38 L/60 have been in service probably under german colours (no pictures) and then under FFI / french colours (plenty of pictures)

 

Some turret with a 47mm have been made under Vichy, but this is not what we are talking about here

Edited December 6, 2022 by Frizare

[Arghail 1,220]

1 hour ago, Frizare said:

to be clear, there is probably no link with the Vichy french state and this vehicule: the Panhard 178 was a pre war model, then captured by the german (1940 or 1942) and THEN it was modified to fit a 50mm pak gun (short or long like here) in a open turret

Hide contents

from BRAEUER Luc Les Chars de La Résistance, it said " ...a 50mm gun mounted by the germans..."

 

This vehicule in particular with a 5cm kwk 38 L/60 have been in service probably under german colours (no pictures) and then under FFI / french colours (plenty of pictures)

 

Some turret with a 47mm have been made under Vichy, but this is not what we are talking about here

 

The turret can rotate then ? I always thought it was fixed.

[FrizBeee 229]

4 hours ago, Arghail said:

 

The turret can rotate then ? I always thought it was fixed.

not completly, they still had to face the target, but yeah, from this picture the gun had at least a decent gun travel

[MS_Phantasm 51]

OP stated why it best fits the French. While it was originally designed by the Germans, they hardly used it outside of a scouting role in Russia. While it was given to Vichy France where they further upgraded it with the long gun, which was then followed by it getting captured by the FFI.

[Drasleon 226]

48 minutes ago, MS_Phantasm said:

OP stated why it best fits the French. While it was originally designed by the Germans, they hardly used it outside of a scouting role in Russia. While it was given to Vichy France where they further upgraded it with the long gun, which was then followed by it getting captured by the FFI.

 

16 hours ago, MS_Phantasm said:

Despite them being fascist cowards, having a Vichy France vehicle in the tree would flesh out it's history.

Afterwards if you really want to have a vehicle from the Vichy regime, the Mb 155 is undoubtedly the most iconic, arrived too late in 1940, it was only used by French pilots who fought for Vichy.

In addition, the Leo 451 late already bears the white vector, symbol of Vichy aviation.

 

[FrizBeee 229]

-deleted-

Edited December 6, 2022 by Frizare

[FrizBeee 229]

1 hour ago, MS_Phantasm said:

OP stated why it best fits the French. 

Never said it shouldn't be in the French TT, just that their is very probably no link with Vichy

32 minutes ago, Drasleon said:

 

Afterwards if you really want to have a vehicle from the Vichy regime, the Mb 155 is undoubtedly the most iconic, arrived too late in 1940, it was only used by French pilots who fought for Vichy.

In addition, the Leo 451 late already bears the white vector, symbol of Vichy aviation.

 

quite funny to read this, because even the Mb155 isn't 100% "Vichy", of course it has been designed before Vichy, but some (few) fought under French colours (IIIè République) during the battle of France. So if it's added ingame, it may have a camouflage from this period (and why not a vichy one as a bonus)

 

Spoiler

some MB155 in june 1940, at the very end of the battle

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Frizare

[Drasleon 226]

51 minutes ago, Frizare said:

quite funny to read this, because even the Mb155 isn't 100% "Vichy", of course it has been designed before Vichy, but some (few) fought under French colours (IIIè République) during the battle of France.

So there I learn something, I had read in another article that these planes had not been delivered before the armistice.

https://www.avionslegendaires.net/avion-militaire/bloch-mb-155/

54 minutes ago, Frizare said:

So if it's added ingame, it may have a camouflage from this period (and why not a vichy one as a bonus)

Personally I would be more for putting the Vichy camouflage on it as the main camouflage (even if aesthetically speaking, I don't find it particularly beautiful). Ok he probably fought in 1940 but his best known campaigns are mainly that of the Levant and North Africa against the allies.