ajax Overwatch Brimstone: The Hydra Tank Destroyer

[Yontzee 1,675]

Overwatch Tank Destroyer

The unveiled Overwatch variant of the AJAX armored fighting vehicles.

 

• Description :
  • The Overwatch Tank Destroyer is a variant of the AJAX family of armored fighting vehicles developed by General Dynamics, first unveiled in 2021. The Overwatch is equipped with the latest technology, featuring the Brimstone 2 Anti-tank Guided Missile (ATGM) developed by MBDA with options allowing it to equip future generations of the Brimstone such as the Brimstone 3. The Brimstone itself is a well-developed version of the American Hellfire missile that is capable of fire-and-forget capabilities out to 10km allowing the vehicle to target fast moving vehicles, tanks, and even low flying helicopters. Other features are fully integrated thermal optics, IR Jammer/Soft-Kill APS, Laser Warning System and more. The Overwatch vehicle itself uses the ARES variant chassis which is the baseline version of the AJAX family which allows rapid integration of new technologies such as a turreted AFV, a Tank Destroyer, and more. The AJAX family has been rapidly developing however, issues continue to delay production. If issues are corrected, the Overwatch could play a role in the British Army's Recce Brigade Combat Teams. No Overwatch vehicles are in service today.
• Armament :
  • 2x Brimstone ATGM Quad-Launchers
    • Missile:
      • Brimstone 2:
        • Warhead: Tandem HEAT
        • Penetration: ~700mm of RHA behind ERA
        • Diameter: 180mm
        • Length: 1.8m
        • Weight: 50kg
        • Range: ~10km
        • Guidance:
          • Millimetric Wave RADAR
          • Semi-active Laser
  • 12.7mm Kongsberg Remote Weapon Station

• Armor :
  • Disclaimer: Armor information based on what is known at this time.
    • Armor (Made of Composites/Steel/NERA/Spaced Armor)
      • Hull Front: Protects against 30mm rounds.
      • Hull Sides/rear: Protects against 14.5mm API/Small Arms fire.
      • Bottom of Hull: Spall Liner, protects against Artillery Fire/Mines, protected up to STANAG 4569 Level 3.
      • Overall Protection: STANAG 4569 Level 4 All-Around against 14.5mm/small arms.
    • Add-on Armor:
      • Side Skirts Modular Armor: Protects vulnerable upper chassis, additional protection against 20mm rounds/artillery fire/shrapnel. Also can be used to store ammunition externally to prevent internal damage.
      • Frontal Modular Armor: Further increases protection, estimated against 40mm rounds and shaped charges (including frontal hull armor).
      • Can be fitted with slat armor covering the upper and lower glacis, some models of AJAX family have all-around slat armor, whether this is will be standard for the ARV variant is unknown.
    • SAAB Barracuda Modular Camouflage System (MCS)
      • Reduces sun absorption.
    • Fuel Tanks: Located on sides of vehicle for additional protection.
• Crew (3) :
  • Driver
  • Gunner
  • Commander
• Engine / Mobility / Size :
  • Engine: MTU V8 199 TE21 Turbocharged Diesel Engine
    • Engine Power: 816hp
  • Transmission: Renk 256B HSWL
    • 6-Speed Fully Automatic (Rated for 46 t)
    • Max Road Speed: 75 km/h
  • Suspension: Torsion Bar
    • 7 rubber-tired road wheels to a hull side with the drive sprocket at front and the track idler at rear.
  • Weight:
    • Standard: ~31-41t
  • Dimensions:
    • Length: 7.62m
    • Width: 3.35m
    • Height: ~2.5m
• Accessories :
  • Elbit System’s Self-Protection Suite including Laser Warning System, Missile Warning Sensors, and IR Jammer.
    • Protects against SACLOS missiles.
    • Similar action as the T-90A jammers.
    • 360 degree coverage.
  • Thermal Imager (3rd-generation):
    • Kongsberg Protector Remote Weapon Station: Commander
    • Thales LSA Thermal Imager: Driver
  • Thermal Imager (see in-game section for more information):
    • Brimstone ATGM Imager
  • Laser Rangefinder
  • 76mm Smoke Launchers x16: Can be set to automatic discharge when detecting incoming missiles.
• In-game :
  • This vehicle would be a complete nightmare for vehicles that are on flatlands and low-flying helicopters. Being able to navigate itself to its targets and destroy them at extreme ranges. My proposal for this vehicle being implemented into the game is to have the missiles be implemented similarly to the Hydra Rocket Tanks featured in the Warfare 2077 April event in 2021. This way the player has to control the missile to prevent this overpowered vehicle from launching fire-and-forget missiles without even having to see the enemy vehicle.
  • One thing to note however, is this vehicle would be extremely vulnerable at close ranges and would likely need defending or would have to remain hidden. Similar to the Striker TD.
  • Adding this vehicle would be very unique to the British Ground Tree as well as providing one of the first effective in-direct fire vehicles to the game.
  • Battle Rating would be 11.0.
  • Recommend increasing SP of this vehicle at start of match to prevent it from being used to spawn kill.
  • This missile however should be controlled from the imager rather than a 3rd person view of the missile as seen in the event. Most likely using the settings of a 1st or 2nd-generation thermal imager due to the wireless connection between launching vehicle and missile. Example:

• Sources :
  • https://www.army-technology.com/analysis/ajax-overwatch-brimstone/
  • https://defence-ua.com/news/general_dynamics_ta_mbda_stvorjujut_vinischuvach_tankiv_overwatch_z_dalekobijnimi_raketami-3522.html
  • https://www.armyrecognition.com/dsei_2021_news_official_land_zone_publication_online_show_daily/dsei_2021_general_dynamics_displays_anti-tank_variant_of_ajax_light_tracked_armored_vehicles.html
  • https://www.hotcars.com/ajax-overwatch-revealed-as-armored-vehicles-anti-tank-variant-for-british-army/
  • https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/brimstone/
  • http://www.military-today.com/missiles/brimstone.htm
  • http://www.military-today.com/apc/ares.htm
• For the original AJAX, please see my other suggestion :

• Images :
   

Multiple view of the Overwatch and function of the retractable launchers.

 

Overwatch at DSEI 2021.

 

ARES variant for which the Overwatch variant is based on with full slat/cage armor.

 

A Brimstone Anti-Tank Missile.

 

Overview of the standard AJAX variant. Some features apply to the Overwatch.

 

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Yontzee

[kurururocks 210]

Open for discussion

[Milocat 4,857]

+1, looks like a great modern AGTM launcher!

[CTCrusader 214]

Missile is way to strong. Getting thermals while guiding the missile would make it better not worse. Does no one remember the spam of UDES 33 and entire teams being wiped or is that just me? No -1

Edited August 1, 2022 by CTCrusader

[Yontzee 1,675]

On 01/08/2022 at 13:52, CTCrusader said:

Missile is way to strong. Getting thermals while guiding the missile would make it better not worse. Does no one remember the spam of UDES 33 and entire teams being wiped or is that just me? No -1

I respect that, just take into consideration that the missile is moving at decently high speeds, most likely greater than 475m/s, with not too great maneuverability. It’s going to be hard to steer it, especially in a first-person view. Players are going to have to rely on scouting and map marks for guidance. Also if someone is close, you’re going to be most likely screwed. Not to mention the 700mm penetration behind ERA is good, but can be survivable. If it ends up being too powerful, Gaijin could add radio interference as the missile is flying, making the thermals a little “glitchy”. There’s room to play with to nullify the missiles edge without hurting its real life capabilities, at least not significantly. Probably more variables they can control with the missile than the can with actual rounds like APFSDS-T.
 

I guess you can kind of think of it as trying to control a horizontal predator missile from MW2. 

 

Anyways thanks for the feedback, I just wanted to give you and anyone else who was wondering my thoughts on the implementation, if you or anyone else has another idea please let me know 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Yontzee

[oom1992 649]

My personal guess BR 11.3 or 11.7 new top tier Tank Destroyer and carry Brimstone modern fire-and-forget ATGM 

[Zev_Winters 313]

No thanks (due to balance and technical reasons). This would be better and more in-line with existing ATGM vehicles: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/546133-mcv80-atml-maximum-missiles/

 

[AVROVULCANXH558 349]

+1 as a top tier TD. We must accept the fact that such missiles are coming, and that countermeasures and tactics to them must be developed in game.

 

One thing to note is that Brimstone is a fully British missile, with no involvement of Hellfire whatsoever during its development phase, other than a UK evaluation of Hellfire with Marconi's MMW seeker, though they are superficially similar.

[Rambolf 371]

You know, due to the fact that new Chinese vehicle, the QN506, has fire and forget atgms its very much likely something accustom to the Brimstone or Javelin is coming to the game this year... +1

[花谱_kaf 21]

Very special tank, hope to be added to the War Thunder soon. Love comes from England

[Yontzee 1,675]

The British Army finally committed IOC dates for the AJAX AFV with the plan of fully accepting them by 2025. This could extend to other variations of the platform including this one. As stated in previous comments, now that we have unique F&F missiles, we could see the Overwatch added at some point.

 

Sources:

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/03/uk-finally-clears-troubled-ajax-infantry-fighting-vehicle-to-enter-service-in-2025-8-years-late/

https://generaldynamics.uk.com/systems/land-systems/ajax/

[AVROVULCANXH558 349]

On 19/04/2023 at 02:41, Rambolf said:

You know, due to the fact that new Chinese vehicle, the QN506, has fire and forget atgms its very much likely something accustom to the Brimstone or Javelin is coming to the game this year... +1

We also had SPIKEs get tested as well, so long range ATGMs should be coming soon

[TPS Hydra@live 46]

On 01/08/2022 at 21:52, CTCrusader said:

Missile is way to strong. Getting thermals while guiding the missile would make it better not worse. Does no one remember the spam of UDES 33 and entire teams being wiped or is that just me? No -1

Same was said about the QN506 but it ended up being horrible. I personally believe it should be added into the game filling up the void British 11.7 line (besides the Challengers ofc). 1+

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by TPS Hydra@live

[CTCrusader 214]

18 hours ago, TPS Hydra@live said:

Same was said about the QN506 but it ended up being horrible. I personally believe it should be added into the game filling up the void British 11.7 line (besides the Challengers ofc). 1+

 

Well the specific suggestion was that you guide it using a thermal camera (like warfare 2077) and it isn't ff. So no this would be busted. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by CTCrusader

[TPS Hydra@live 46]

7 hours ago, CTCrusader said:

Well the specific suggestion was that you guide it using a thermal camera (like warfare 2077) and it isn't ff. So no this would be busted. 

The missiles will literally be useless at close range as they're tilted upwards, APS is becoming a more common thing at top tier nullifying this vehicles capabilities, many top tier turrets (from MBT's) can also easily shrug off these missiles as they only have a maximum penetration of 700mm (of which I've found may be wrong). Realistically this will perform ok-ish to decent on the battlefield I highly doubt it would be "OP". 

[CTCrusader 214]

2 hours ago, TPS Hydra@live said:

The missiles will literally be useless at close range as they're tilted upwards, APS is becoming a more common thing at top tier nullifying this vehicles capabilities, many top tier turrets (from MBT's) can also easily shrug off these missiles as they only have a maximum penetration of 700mm (of which I've found may be wrong). Realistically this will perform ok-ish to decent on the battlefield I highly doubt it would be "OP". 

It would be able to fire missiles from spawn to spawn at the beginning of the match and guided manually into enemy tanks. The only nations with top vehicles with hardkill APS right now is Britain and Isreal (Soviets too but it isn't tt). And if you are in close range with this vehicle you are doing something very very wrong especially since that it can sit in its spawn and kill enemy tanks with ease without los. Realistically this would be busted unless everyone gets tanks with hardkill APS then it becomes useless. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Yontzee 1,675]

1 hour ago, CTCrusader said:

It would be able to fire missiles from spawn to spawn at the beginning of the match and guided manually into enemy tanks. The only nations with top vehicles with hardkill APS right now is Britain and Isreal (Soviets too but it isn't tt). And if you are in close range with this vehicle you are doing something very very wrong especially since that it can sit in its spawn and kill enemy tanks with ease without los. Realistically this would be busted unless everyone gets tanks with hardkill APS then it becomes useless. 

The solution to prevent missiles being fired at the beginning of spawn is to increase the cost of deployment similar to aircraft. It also would also be hampered in urban maps and by its limited ammo capacity, it would have to go to points often to reload. It's not guaranteed every missile will be a kill, depending on how hard they make it to control. There is some flexibility. With the target moving and as the camera/missile gets closer, it would be harder to aim, preventing you from hitting soft-points.  

Edited April 25, 2023 by Yontzee

[CTCrusader 214]

12 hours ago, Yontzee said:

The solution to prevent missiles being fired at the beginning of spawn is to increase the cost of deployment similar to aircraft.

A good idea.

 

12 hours ago, Yontzee said:

It also would also be hampered in urban maps and by its limited ammo capacity, it would have to go to points often to reload.

Most missile td can't be used on urban maps effectively and most have limited ammo as well. 

 

12 hours ago, Yontzee said:

it would be harder to aim, preventing you from hitting soft-points.  

It doesn't matter if you hit soft points as you will most likely be hitting the roof of enemy vehicles leading to many one hit kills. And it still doesn't change the fact that fighting this would be annoying as sh*t like how tanks fight helis or drones with little to no counter. If you make the missile too hard to control it would become annoying as sh*t to play and when killed by it annoying as sh*t to fight because there is no counter save hard kill aps. This vehicle doesn't create healthy gameplay as the person killed by it would feel bad (and if the missile is too hard to control the player using it will feel bad when playing it).

Edited April 26, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Yontzee 1,675]

4 hours ago, CTCrusader said:

It doesn't matter if you hit soft points as you will most likely be hitting the roof of enemy vehicles leading to many one hit kills. And it still doesn't change the fact that fighting this would be annoying as sh*t like how tanks fight helis or drones with little to no counter. If you make the missile too hard to control it would become annoying as sh*t to play and when killed by it annoying as sh*t to fight because there is no counter save hard kill aps. This vehicle doesn't create healthy gameplay as the person killed by it would feel bad (and if the missile is too hard to control the player using it will feel bad when playing it).

See I think it wouldn't be any more annoying than getting targeted/killed by drones. The only thing different is that you're controlling the missile from the warhead vice laser guidance or F&F modes in-game. Not to mention taking in flight dynamics and such, you would have to have somewhat of an idea of where your target is or you may overshoot them. I do agree either way it would be annoying to die by this thing 

 

The only other idea that we could have for guidance (that's more in-line with its real capabilities) is, to fire the main weapon, you would have to open a map like you're using artillery and where you click on the map is where the missile will be launched too and once it's in that general vicinity, it will utilize its F&F mode/RADAR homing to lock on and kill the target. In this mode, scouting would be key and the vehicle should be given a scout drone so it can search/pick its targets independently of scouts (in-case they're not doing their job). This would also require you to be safe with your drone and use it sparingly. Maybe it should be given a quad-copter style drone to better position itself in a hover-mode (and could even add a laser illuminator to the drone and remote-firing, this would be a very unique capability. You can essentially "paint" targets just like in real war environments with the drone, and while your vehicle is safe behind cover, remote fire the missiles from your vehicle with your drone and use the laser to guide the missile to where you want it. This laser guidance can trip Laser Warning Receivers on vehicles equipped with them, giving somewhat of a countermeasure for them). That way, players can get the feel of the real life missile capabilities, being able to swap between the modes of Laser Guidance or RADAR Homing/F&F. Also...judging by the capability, or lack of, with the QN506's F&F missiles, this mode of firing wouldn't be too meta. Especially since the QN502CDD needs absolute perfect conditions to hit anything at all. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by Yontzee

[CTCrusader 214]

2 hours ago, Yontzee said:

See I think it wouldn't be any more annoying than getting targeted/killed by drones. The only thing different is that you're controlling the missile from the warhead vice laser guidance or F&F modes in-game. Not to mention taking in flight dynamics and such, you would have to have somewhat of an idea of where your target is or you may overshoot them. I do agree either way it would be annoying to die by this thing 

 

The only other idea that we could have for guidance (that's more in-line with its real capabilities) is, to fire the main weapon, you would have to open a map like you're using artillery and where you click on the map is where the missile will be launched too and once it's in that general vicinity, it will utilize its F&F mode/RADAR homing to lock on and kill the target. In this mode, scouting would be key and the vehicle should be given a scout drone so it can search/pick its targets independently of scouts (in-case they're not doing their job). This would also require you to be safe with your drone and use it sparingly. Maybe it should be given a quad-copter style drone to better position itself in a hover-mode (and could even add a laser illuminator to the drone and remote-firing, this would be a very unique capability. You can essentially "paint" targets just like in real war environments with the drone, and while your vehicle is safe behind cover, remote fire the missiles from your vehicle with your drone and use the laser to guide the missile to where you want it. This laser guidance can trip Laser Warning Receivers on vehicles equipped with them, giving somewhat of a countermeasure for them). That way, players can get the feel of the real life missile capabilities, being able to swap between the modes of Laser Guidance or RADAR Homing/F&F. Also...judging by the capability, or lack of, with the QN506's F&F missiles, this mode of firing wouldn't be too meta. Especially since the QN502CDD needs absolute perfect conditions to hit anything at all. 

I would rather it be FF and be put at 9.0 (maybe even lower like 8.7) and no its not that unique what you are suggesting (the the drone spots targets and missile goes after said targets part) because it is something the QN506 can do irl as well. If this vehicle has a reverse speed it would be alright with FF missiles but not broken. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Yontzee 1,675]

2 hours ago, CTCrusader said:

I would rather it be FF and be put at 9.0 (maybe even lower like 8.7) and no its not that unique what you are suggesting (the the drone spots targets and missile goes after said targets part) because it is something the QN506 can do irl as well. If this vehicle has a reverse speed it would be alright with FF missiles but not broken. 

What I’m saying by unique is there’s no current function for that in-game therefore making it unique, especially if you give it the option for players to choose between using the drone for painting targets for laser beam guidance or RADAR homing guidance. I’m aware the QN506’s drone can also spot for targeting, the drone is  heavily integrated and it even goes as far to have a miniature “helipad” for a drone itself. However it doesn’t have that feature now and who knows if it will get it. This vehicle has more of a priority since it cannot target vehicles up close and it’s sole function would be long range targeting if we went down this form of guidance for the missile. It also is more immersive, being able to use full functionality of the missile. 
 

I think you’re overestimating it’s capabilities in-game, regardless of whatever guidance you give it there’s a lot of flexibility to find balance with it and a lot of variables that are at play when using it. It’s not going to be far off from using a drone or the PARS 3 to get kills or in terms of how you get killed. The only differences you have to take account is vehicle positioning and the arc of the missile so it doesn’t come into contact with anything between the launcher and target since its a ground-to-ground platform. You also don’t have physical control of the missile to target areas where the vehicle is most vulnerable. Regardless if it’s a top attack missile, we can see with the QN502CDD that it doesn’t matter because even many top attack hits result in the target still not destroyed, not even damaged in some cases. If we’re taking account the difference in penetration and explosive filler, it would likely be similar to the AGM-114K in-game which also at times requires multiple unfortunate hits.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Yontzee

[CTCrusader 214]

15 hours ago, Yontzee said:

What I’m saying by unique is there’s no current function for that in-game therefore making it unique, especially if you give it the option for players to choose between using the drone for painting targets for laser beam guidance or RADAR homing guidance. I’m aware the QN506’s drone can also spot for targeting, the drone is  heavily integrated and it even goes as far to have a miniature “helipad” for a drone itself. However it doesn’t have that feature now and who knows if it will get it. This vehicle has more of a priority since it cannot target vehicles up close and it’s sole function would be long range targeting if we went down this form of guidance for the missile. It also is more immersive, being able to use full functionality of the missile. 

Lots of vehicles suffer in close range environments (particularly missile td like shturm) and many vehicles don't have all their full functionality modelled as well. I believe modelling it as a FF missile would be the best choice as that is how the brimstone functions irl, the drone guiding part is unnecessary and would still not be fun to fight. I would like to mention you can guide the missile IRL if you have a laser designator (it was meant so that drones could minimize damage to civilians) so maybe the missile should just be mouse guided with a FF mode you can switch between. That would make it very unique. 

 

 

15 hours ago, Yontzee said:

I think you’re overestimating it’s capabilities in-game, regardless of whatever guidance you give it there’s a lot of flexibility to find balance with it and a lot of variables that are at play when using it. It’s not going to be far off from using a drone or the PARS 3 to get kills or in terms of how you get killed. 

Which I would like to avoid adding more of. They already aren't fun to die to so why add more especially for a weapon that has other guidance modes?

 

15 hours ago, Yontzee said:

The only differences you have to take account is vehicle positioning and the arc of the missile so it doesn’t come into contact with anything between the launcher and target since its a ground-to-ground platform. You also don’t have physical control of the missile to target areas where the vehicle is most vulnerable. Regardless if it’s a top attack missile, we can see with the QN502CDD that it doesn’t matter because even many top attack hits result in the target still not destroyed, not even damaged in some cases. If we’re taking account the difference in penetration and explosive filler, it would likely be similar to the AGM-114K in-game which also at times requires multiple unfortunate hits.

Well yes that is the nature of how FF missiles are modelled in warthunder. Hence why it should be at a lower br like 9.0 or even 8.7. 

Edited April 27, 2023 by CTCrusader

[Yontzee 1,675]

44 minutes ago, CTCrusader said:

Lots of vehicles suffer in close range environments (particularly missile td like shturm) and many vehicles don't have all their full functionality modelled as well. I believe modelling it as a FF missile would be the best choice as that is how the brimstone functions irl, the drone guiding part is unnecessary and would still not be fun to fight. I would like to mention you can guide the missile IRL if you have a laser designator (it was meant so that drones could minimize damage to civilians) so maybe the missile should just be mouse guided with a FF mode you can switch between. That would make it very unique. 

 

 

Which I would like to avoid adding more of. They already aren't fun to die to so why add more especially for a weapon that has other guidance modes?

 

Well yes that is the nature of how FF missiles are modelled in warthunder. Hence why it should be at a lower br like 9.0 or even 8.7. 

I disagree but you’re entitled to your own opinion 

 

Edit: I do agree with at least having a F&F mode.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Yontzee

[Yontzee 1,675]

The problem-ridden Ajax AFV’s are back on the training field.

 

Source: https://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/06/16/british-army-ajax-training/
 

 

[SuTa_basuto 38]

2 hours ago, Yontzee said:

問題重重的 Ajax AFV 又回到了訓練場上。

 

來源：  https ://www.thedefensepost.com/2023/06/16/british-army-ajax-training/
 

 

Good news.