Ju-88A4 bomb load upgrade

[gahab141 33]

In WT Ju-88A4 carries a ridiculous amount of ordinance compared to what it could IRL

 

Spoiler

At the moment the most numerous german ww2 bomber is semi-useless compared to its analogues in the tech tree
I guess it should get that 2x SC-1000 + 2x SC500 load, maybe at a cost of BR change. 

[Thodin 6,784]

Higher BR and higher rank would be welcome anyways.

 

 

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

I would like to draw your attention regarding Ju88A-4 with 3.000 kg loadout to a recent discussion in the Swedish forum:

 

 

The discussion there deals exactly with the topic bombload 3.000 kg and on top with the field modification with a 20mm gun. Furthermore, some detailed feedback from a technical mod, further technical data and emphasizing that A-4 was modified throughout the years without changing the designation A-4.

 

On 01/12/2022 at 00:34, gahab141 said:

At the moment the most numerous german ww2 bomber is semi-useless compared to its analogues in the tech tree
I guess it should get that 2x SC-1000 + 2x SC500 load, maybe at a cost of BR change. 

 

Quote:"semi-useless compared to its analogues in the tech tree" - what do you mean with this? Other bombers and/or nations?

 

The Ju88A-4 has the highest total bombload of all tactical bombers in the BR range. Only the F222.2 and the NC 223.3 have higher loadouts, but they are strategic bombers. Where or why comes semi-useless into play? Related to Arcade, Air RB, ground RB or naval? Help me to understand.

 

Regarding BR increase: 

 

The current max TNT amount (2xSC500 +28xSC50) is 2x260 + 28x25 = 1.320 kg of TNT 

The potential max TNT amount of your loadout (2xSC1000 + 2xSC500) would be 2x600 + 2x260 = 1.720 kg of TNT

 

Roughly 30% increase of TNT will guarantee a BR increase, not maybe.

 

 

19 hours ago, Thodin said:

Higher BR and higher rank would be welcome anyways.

 

 

 

Sorry bro, but this does not reflect the actual situation in Air RB from my perspective. Maybe in full downtiers they dominate the sky, despite P38s have the same BR and every P39 catches them, maybe in ground rb or naval the plane performs great, i do not play that.

 

But - I fly almost daily B18B in Air RB and see the Finnish or German Ju88A-4s at BR 3.0 melting like ice in the Saharra desert. A further BR raise would increase this effect even more. Please consider that the Ju88 A-4 was until May at BR 2.3 and check the recent fighter BR changes. Imho the current BR of 3.0 is already too high. 

 

A higher rank - the Halifax at BR 4.0 sits at rank 2....

  

 

[Thodin 6,784]

4 hours ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

I would like to draw your attention regarding Ju88A-4 with 3.000 kg loadout to a recent discussion in the Swedish forum:

 

 

The discussion there deals exactly with the topic bombload 3.000 kg and on top with the field modification with a 20mm gun. Furthermore, some detailed feedback from a technical mod, further technical data and emphasizing that A-4 was modified throughout the years without changing the designation A-4.

 

 

Quote:"semi-useless compared to its analogues in the tech tree" - what do you mean with this? Other bombers and/or nations?

 

The Ju88A-4 has the highest total bombload of all tactical bombers in the BR range. Only the F222.2 and the NC 223.3 have higher loadouts, but they are strategic bombers. Where or why comes semi-useless into play? Related to Arcade, Air RB, ground RB or naval? Help me to understand.

 

Regarding BR increase: 

 

The current max TNT amount (2xSC500 +28xSC50) is 2x260 + 28x25 = 1.320 kg of TNT 

The potential max TNT amount of your loadout (2xSC1000 + 2xSC500) would be 2x600 + 2x260 = 1.720 kg of TNT

 

Roughly 30% increase of TNT will guarantee a BR increase, not maybe.

 

 

 

Sorry bro, but this does not reflect the actual situation in Air RB from my perspective. Maybe in full downtiers they dominate the sky, despite P38s have the same BR and every P39 catches them, maybe in ground rb or naval the plane performs great, i do not play that.

 

But - I fly almost daily B18B in Air RB and see the Finnish or German Ju88A-4s at BR 3.0 melting like ice in the Saharra desert. A further BR raise would increase this effect even more. Please consider that the Ju88 A-4 was until May at BR 2.3 and check the recent fighter BR changes. Imho the current BR of 3.0 is already too high. 

 

A higher rank - the Halifax at BR 4.0 sits at rank 2....

  

 

 

For Air RB BR 4.0 would be ok. With 1000kg 2x and 500kg 2x it would be a nice tac bomber.

 

Maybe Gajin could introduce an A-4 early and late model to reflect the change over the years. I always woundered why it can't use its historical 3 ton loadout.

[gahab141 33]

14 hours ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

I would like to draw your attention regarding Ju88A-4 with 3.000 kg loadout to a recent discussion in the Swedish forum:

 

 

The discussion there deals exactly with the topic bombload 3.000 kg and on top with the field modification with a 20mm gun. Furthermore, some detailed feedback from a technical mod, further technical data and emphasizing that A-4 was modified throughout the years without changing the designation A-4.
 

 

 

Well, the amount of information there is... Well... 

 

14 hours ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

 

 

Quote:"semi-useless compared to its analogues in the tech tree" - what do you mean with this? Other bombers and/or nations?

 

The Ju88A-4 has the highest total bombload of all tactical bombers in the BR range.
 Only the F222.2 and the NC 223.3 have higher loadouts, but they are strategic bombers. Where or why comes semi-useless into play? Related to Arcade, Air RB, ground RB or naval? Help me to understand.

 

 

Ground RB/SB

 

14 hours ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

 

The current max TNT amount (2xSC500 +28xSC50) is 2x260 + 28x25 = 1.320 kg of TNT 

The potential max TNT amount of your loadout (2xSC1000 + 2xSC500) would be 2x600 + 2x260 = 1.720 kg of TNT

If you measure effectiveness in tnt then He-111 can carry 1325 tnt (2x1000 + 1x250). There is also Fw-200 with 2xSC-1000 + 2x 500, or 6x 500. Furthermore there is He-111H16 with SC-2500 with 2720kg tnt at the same br 

 

 

14 hours ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

Roughly 30% increase of TNT will guarantee a BR increase, not maybe.

 

 

I'm ok with that, don't really care if it goes up to 3.7 to Yer-2, there is still more than enough good planes for the current BR

 

14 hours ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

But - I fly almost daily B18B in Air RB and see the Finnish or German Ju88A-4s at BR 3.0 melting like ice in the Saharra desert. A further BR raise would increase this effect even more.

 

It's a bomber. It will suffer against fighters wherever you place it. Like i said, there is Yer-2, it has 2x1000 + 4x 500. Even more than 88 possibly can. And is still 3.7

Edited December 2, 2022 by gahab141

[blockhaj 3,560]

On 02/12/2022 at 03:35, Uncle J Wick@live said:

I would like to draw your attention regarding Ju88A-4 with 3.000 kg loadout to a recent discussion in the Swedish forum:

 

 

The discussion there deals exactly with the topic bombload 3.000 kg and on top with the field modification with a 20mm gun. Furthermore, some detailed feedback from a technical mod, further technical data and emphasizing that A-4 was modified throughout the years without changing the designation A-4.

Maxload was 2x 1000 kg in finnish service and they never used the A-4 designation formally. The aircraft was simply designated JK.

On 02/12/2022 at 03:35, Uncle J Wick@live said:

Quote:"semi-useless compared to its analogues in the tech tree" - what do you mean with this? Other bombers and/or nations?

 

The Ju88A-4 has the highest total bombload of all tactical bombers in the BR range. Only the F222.2 and the NC 223.3 have higher loadouts, but they are strategic bombers. Where or why comes semi-useless into play? Related to Arcade, Air RB, ground RB or naval? Help me to understand.

 

Regarding BR increase: 

 

The current max TNT amount (2xSC500 +28xSC50) is 2x260 + 28x25 = 1.320 kg of TNT 

The potential max TNT amount of your loadout (2xSC1000 + 2xSC500) would be 2x600 + 2x260 = 1.720 kg of TNT

 

Roughly 30% increase of TNT will guarantee a BR increase, not maybe.

 

Sorry bro, but this does not reflect the actual situation in Air RB from my perspective. Maybe in full downtiers they dominate the sky, despite P38s have the same BR and every P39 catches them, maybe in ground rb or naval the plane performs great, i do not play that.

 

But - I fly almost daily B18B in Air RB and see the Finnish or German Ju88A-4s at BR 3.0 melting like ice in the Saharra desert. A further BR raise would increase this effect even more. Please consider that the Ju88 A-4 was until May at BR 2.3 and check the recent fighter BR changes. Imho the current BR of 3.0 is already too high. 

 

A higher rank - the Halifax at BR 4.0 sits at rank 2....

Imo the Ju 88 should be 4.3 at least with its current loads.

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

11 hours ago, gahab141 said:

On 02/12/2022 at 03:35, Uncle J Wick@live said:

But - I fly almost daily B18B in Air RB and see the Finnish or German Ju88A-4s at BR 3.0 melting like ice in the Saharra desert. A further BR raise would increase this effect even more.

 

It's a bomber. It will suffer against fighters wherever you place it. Like i said, there is Yer-2, it has 2x1000 + 4x 500. Even more than 88 possibly can. And is still 3.7

 

Suffering ok, but you should give them at least the possibility to get to a base and rtb. 

 

Maybe this isn't an issue if you focus solely on Ground RB, but for Air RB it is essential. 

 

11 hours ago, gahab141 said:

On 02/12/2022 at 03:35, Uncle J Wick@live said:

Roughly 30% increase of TNT will guarantee a BR increase, not maybe.

 

 

I'm ok with that, don't really care if it goes up to 3.7 to Yer-2, there is still more than enough good planes for the current BR

 

Sorry, but you are talking about a plane sitting until may 2022 at BR 2.3 and about a potential upgrade from currently 3.0 to 3.7 due to a 30% increase of TNT or 25% of max bomb load. The potential upgrade or call it late version has then almost zero chance to survive. And the comparison with Yer-2: Yer-2 is a strategic bomber with respective spawn. Same as your earlier mentioned Fw 200. Yer-2s get clapped in Air RB like the poor guys in Sterlings at 4.0.

 

I see your points if you focus on Ground RB alone. When you are able to spawn at the right moment in your match when there is no enemy fighter after you. But in Air RB there are markers, you know this. A Ju88 A-4 marker at BR 3.7 is basically an invitation for every enemy fighter for a free kill.

 

We have already a plane with a BR 3.0 airframe sitting at BR 5.0 being unusable in Air RB due to excelling in Ground RB - the 410 B-6/R3.

 

So - from your point of view you would have 4 bomb drops in Ground RB with much more punch than the current max loadout with 2xSC500 and 28xSC50. From my point of view this would lead to the situation that the plane is more or less useless in Air RB due to almost zero to none bomb drop and rtb chances at a higher BR.

 

I propose to stop this here and see how or if gaijin will react to the already addressed proposals/bug reports/suggestions. Fine for you?

 

21 hours ago, Thodin said:

For Air RB BR 4.0 would be ok. With 1000kg 2x and 500kg 2x it would be a nice tac bomber.

 

Maybe Gajin could introduce an A-4 early and late model to reflect the change over the years. I always woundered why it can't use its historical 3 ton loadout

 

Bro, i saw u have used the plane quite often in Ground or Air RB. And you have an incredible number of games. Thats why i would like to give you a more detailed answer. First as a sign of respect, second to point out some topics, in my view worth a more a holistic view on the underlying issue. Ok the end result is much more than i had planned, but i like complex topics and maybe a few 3rd party readers will assess some of the content as helpful. 

 

As with all relevant topics irl i tried to focus on the core: Are you able to use advanced options or not. In this case: 

 

Are you able to use the increase of TNT damage, giving you the theoretical possibility to kill 3 non-respawning bases or 2 respawning bases.
 

 

Part A) Analysis of practical possibility to use increased bombload :  Non-respawning bases on old maps

 

Standard approach:

No matter if 3.7 or 4.0. - for non-respawning bases on old maps you need to get there first. Remember u will still have standard airspawn at roughly 3.500 meters, on old 4 non-respawning bases maps with 4 identical sized airfields, the spawn is between 2.000 and 2.500 meters. As i told before: i play B18B every day - a high direct course is a death sentence, the climb with current 2.400kg is bad enough and JU88 is too slow at this BR - u will get intercepted before you are in drop range. Either by climbing attackers or classic interceptors. If u go low on direct course, you will run into enemy attackers.

 

In both standard scenarios you would not be able to use your theoretical ability to kill 3 non respawning bases as you will get shot down in most cases before you are able to drop at all, as soon you are spotted you are dead. Nevertheless 1 or 2 basekills possible, this requires the willingness to accept your inevitable death. No practical use besides that you will have just 4 drops instead of 30.

 

Alternative approach: 

As classic sideclimbing in the general direction of enemy bases is no real option due to bad climb: This means running away to a quite corner of the map, climbing and waiting that the enemy fighters will get lower so you can attack. It takes you ages to get to 7km alt with the current 2.4 ton bombload. This strategy might work on the 3 of the 4 old 4 non-respawning bases maps France 1944, Moscow 1941 and Huertgen 2nd battle if you use the dead space at the south of these copy + paste maps. Maybe on Spain too, if you are willing to fly a very large detour and assuming u won't get blindhunted as last player.

 

Imho you will need lots of things happening at the same time in order to use the full potential of the higher loadout on maps with non-respawning bases. There might be much more, i listed below the most obvious:

1) Clouds to hide = pure luck

2) Time and space to climb = depending on map size, almost impossible on smaller maps like Mozdok as ur dot is visible 20km = pure luck

3) Ur team is still alive when you finally drop on last base and you are not getting blindhunted before = pure luck

4) The enemy team is still alive when you drop on last base after climbing a flying a detour = pure luck

5) The enemy team had no dedicated bomber hunter who is just luring around the bases = pure luck

6) No other bomber on your team made it to a base and no Wyvern or the usual tanker in a P-47 with bombs killed a base = pure luck

 

As a conclusion: I do not see the actual  possibility to use the full potential of the increased bombload when attacking non-respawning bases in almost all battles, there might be exceptions, but these would require too many factors based on pure luck. No practical use besides that you will have just 4 drops instead of 30.

 

 

Part B) Analysis of practical possibility to use increased bombload :  Non-respawning bases on updated or reworked maps

 

Besides the already mentioned challenges whist attacking non-respawning bases, a bomb run for 2 respawning bases looks far easier as you have only 2 bases to bomb instead of 3. Furthermore, the distance between the 2 bases is in general much smaller than between the bases on old 3 bases maps (not Arcade maps like Mozdok). But: To kill 2 respawning bases you need to drop 1xSC500 and 1x SC1000 on each base, so there would be the need to fly over both bases 2 times. This means: No easy shallow dive hit and run like in a Ju288 - you have to penetrate the enemy zone far deeper, flying a hammer head after your first 2 drops to drop the remaining two bombs, further increasing your risk to get intercepted. As issues with medium to higher alt attacks are mentioned above, i want to focus on the more common medium alt and dive lower to escape approach. Best way would be to try to keep as much alt as possible whilst being fast enough to turn away from incoming enemies after your bomb drop.   

 

In this scenario a successful medium to lower-level attack on respawning bases might be successful:

1. Your own attackers attacked only the 2 bases on the other side of the map = pure luck

2. Enemy attacker or interceptors are protecting bases or attacking ground on the other side of the map = pure luck 

3. You anticipated the first 2 points correct and chose the side without incoming ai planes spotting you = skill

4. U managed to dive without ripping (no airbrake according to other thread) and kept enough energy and speed to rtb = skill

5. U managed to escape the typical empty bomber hunter who follows you above your airfield = pure luck + skill

6. U managed to avoid getting killed by enemy midfield aaa or flaktrucks = pure luck on some maps, skill on others

 

Based on this strategy the chances to use the full potential of the increased bombload are far better compared with attacks on non-respawng bases. It describes basically the way how you should use any medium bomber when you are interested to rtb safely.

 

 

C) Analysis of overall survivability 

 

Idk when u played your above mentioned Ju88A-4 matches, so i have no clue if you played it at BR 2.3, 2.7 or 3.0. What i saw is that u lost your plane in roughly 80% of your matches. This might be a result of playing it in Ground RB.

 

Nevertheless: Do you think this plane loss ratio will get better or worse at a higher BR when facing better equipped enemies?

 

I stopped it playing in Air RB when it was at BR 2.7. Cause the survivability was already low enough due to japan 109s and P39Ns. U needed excessive sideclimbing to have a chance for an unmolested bomb run if u wanted to use the max loadout of 2xSC500 and 28x SC50, not mentioning the time-consuming drop of the SC50s. And at those days the F6-C spam popped up, leading to countless uptiers and further plane losses.

 

Considering the stuff i have seen whilst flying most of the time in uptiers up to 4.7 i do not see any kind of indicator, that the already low survivability will get better. As described to the other fellow player the plane will be slaughtered as every other medium tier bomber.

 

 

D) Overall conclusion and recommemdation 

 

The benefits of the overall increase of the bombload whilst attacking non-respawning bases are almost non achieveable. The benefts whils attacking the more common respawning bases are there, but far away from outweighing the disadvantages of the connected decrease of the survivability due to facing faster and better armed enemies at 2 or 3 higher BR steps. It looks way more efficient to keep the lower BR and die in lesser cases saving frustration and repair cost. 

 

In case you guys want to follow this path anyway i would follow the recommendation of the technical mod to implement a second or late version of the Ju88 A-4. This would be a fair deal to keep the then early version at the current BR. 

 

But i think there is also a way to optimize the current BR 3.0 variant whilst keeping the BR and giving Ground and Air RB players a more effective weapon. The current max load is 2.400 kg or 2xSC500 and 28x SC50.

Suggest to gaijin to add loadouts like 2x SC1000, 4xSC500 and 2xSC500+2xSC250. This would not touch the max bombload or max TNT drop but would help the Ground RB user to have more punch with less drops and the Air RB player has way less drops and can fight more efficient. At least the 2xSC1000 like in the He111 would be easy to justify. Based on that: the 4x SC500 having a lesser TNT output than 2xSC1000, so it should not be a problem. 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Uncle J Wick@live

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

1 hour ago, blockhaj said:

Maxload was 2x 1000 kg in finnish service and they never used the A-4 designation formally. The aircraft was simply designated JK.

 

Ok, i got your point regarding the local local rules & procedures of the Finnish Air Force regarding their preferred usage of the plane.

 

But it does not have an impact on the technical possibilities or max loadout foreseen by the manufacturer, right?

 

 

1 hour ago, blockhaj said:

Imo the Ju 88 should be 4.3 at least with its current loads.

 

Ok, got this point too.

 

As I wrote earlier: 7 months ago, the plane was at BR 2.3 - your BR 4.3 assessment as of today would implement that all of these advanced algorithms used by gaijin to set and adjust the right BR would have been wrong by 6 BR steps in May 2022, as of today 4 BR steps. The He 111 can carry 100kg more than JU 88 A-4 having the same BR of 3.0. As you refer to the current loadout you imply that you would set the He 111 also at 4.3? 

 

I cannot believe that. The only logical explanation would be that very recently, and after the last BR update round, a general change of BR setting policy was decided. Can you tell us more about that? 

 

 

Another topic regarding bombload upgrade:

 

As you have quoted me here in the German section to a 2 day old post - can you tell me your thoughts about my proposed solution for the topic in the Swedish section from the November 22nd? I totally forgot this topic, thank you in advance!

 

Here my extracted proposal:

 

Back to your discussions: I think all of you made valid points, why u guys are not looking for a win-win solution?

 

To get there you should consider the following as given starting points and/or proposals:

 

1. The current German A-4 represents an early production model

2. The Finish A-4 is identical to this early version

3. If you want to implement the max 3.000kg version - create a new German model - Ju88 A-4 Late

4. Make the plane lighter to match the removal of the dive brakes, maybe make a bit faster due to loss of drag?

5. If you want to add 20mm Cannon do it as an option you can switch on or off as it will remove your bomb sight

6. No need to reclassify A-4 Late as strike aircraft. Postwar Brigand is a bomber without bombsight too

7. As choosing 20mm option kills your bombing accuracy from alt - both effects with outbalance each other, no need for extra BR increase

8. Accept that increase of bombload alone will increase the BR accordingly

9. No need for Finnish manual to verify 20mm option - just copy the A-4 Late from the German to the Finnish tech tree. 

10. At the end all will have won

 

Hope you can find a way to solve this topic.

 

[blockhaj 3,560]

3 minutes ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

 

Ok, i got your point regarding the local local rules & procedures of the Finnish Air Force regarding their preferred usage of the plane.

 

But it does not have an impact on the technical possibilities or max loadout foreseen by the manufacturer, right?

Depends. Ive yet to read the manual so no idea what it says about overloads.

 

3 minutes ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

Ok, got this point too.

 

As I wrote earlier: 7 months ago, the plane was at BR 2.3 - your BR 4.3 assessment as of today would implement that all of these advanced algorithms used by gaijin to set and adjust the right BR would have been wrong by 6 BR steps in May 2022, as of today 4 BR steps. The He 111 can carry 100kg more than JU 88 A-4 having the same BR of 3.0. As you refer to the current loadout you imply that you would set the He 111 also at 4.3? 

The He 111 is not a schnellbomber with divebombing ability.

 

3 minutes ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

The only logical explanation would be that very recently, and after the last BR update round, a general change of BR setting policy was decided. Can you tell us more about that? 

Nope

 

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

13 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

20 minutes ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

Ok, got this point too.

 

As I wrote earlier: 7 months ago, the plane was at BR 2.3 - your BR 4.3 assessment as of today would implement that all of these advanced algorithms used by gaijin to set and adjust the right BR would have been wrong by 6 BR steps in May 2022, as of today 4 BR steps. The He 111 can carry 100kg more than JU 88 A-4 having the same BR of 3.0. As you refer to the current loadout you imply that you would set the He 111 also at 4.3? 

The He 111 is not a schnellbomber with divebombing ability.

 

20 minutes ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

The only logical explanation would be that very recently, and after the last BR update round, a general change of BR setting policy was decided. Can you tell us more about that? 

Nope

 

Thx for the ultra fast reply!!

 

Regarding He 111: The Ju 88 A-4 is less than 5% faster than the He 111 H-16 with the SC2500 option. Schnellbomber is a myth ::-) 

 

Regarding BR change policy: Nope - ok, i will wait for the next BR change round....

 

Regarding my proposal: Any thoughts you would like to share?

 

[blockhaj 3,560]

24 minutes ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

Regarding my proposal: Any thoughts you would like to share?

Overall i dont see why it has to be complicated. Just give it more bombs and uptier it.

[Thodin 6,784]

3 hours ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

 

Bro, i saw u have used the plane quite often in Ground or Air RB. And you have an incredible number of games. Thats why i would like to give you a more detailed answer. First as a sign of respect, second to point out some topics, in my view worth a more a holistic view on the underlying issue. Ok the end result is much more than i had planned, but i like complex topics and maybe a few 3rd party readers will assess some of the content as helpful. 

 

Mostly Ground RB...maybe just 2-3 matches or something to spade it in Air RB. 

 

Thx to the airbrake and bomb sight autopilot off you can use it with great precision. I don't have a screenshot for an recent A-4 game, but I also used the A-1 quite often during the last grind event and it allows you to succesfully engage several player tanks. I drop the 50 kg bombs like 2-4 on one target. I prefer the 2x250 + 28x 50kg loadout. For the A-4 its the 2x 500 kg + 28x 50kg one. 

 

However, since the He-111 with that super "Max" bomb is a thing, I usually use this one where I used the A-4 in the past. I just wounder why so few people use bombers in RB Ground.

 

 

The successor is similar, just a combination of more big bombs and less 50kg ones. You can carry matches with these frontline attack bombers. They allow you to attack many different targets.

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Thodin

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

52 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

Overall i dont see why it has to be complicated. Just give it more bombs and uptier it.

 

Congratulations:

 

 

 

 

Your own statements:

 

On 11/11/2022 at 08:17, blockhaj said:

On 09/11/2022 at 03:28, Chomusuke1 said:

I know. That is why I did a bug report on the missing cannon but you people at gaijin still haven't done anything about that.

The 20 mm mod is best suited for a separate aircraft since that mod included other changes, like the removal of the dive brakes.

 

 

On 16/11/2022 at 00:59, blockhaj said:

On 12/11/2022 at 11:46, Chomusuke1 said:

Also the cannon should be unlockable like on the fighter planes (20 mm on 109 K pictured):

Well thats just gonna take a lot of dev-resources, since the mod would require the dive-brakes to be removed, also the cockpit updated to show the gun. Two separate aircraft would be cooler imo.

 

 

So you pointed out the importance and necessity of 2 different planes and come then with this:

 

54 minutes ago, blockhaj said:

Overall i dont see why it has to be complicated. Just give it more bombs and uptier it.

 

I am not sure if it makes sense to continue with this exchange.

 

A short summary:

 

You were active in a discussion in Swedish aircraft section

You pointed out the necessity of 2 different planes

I made a suggestion to solve the issue 

I never received a reply, i haven't asked for reply

Some days later a similar discussion in the German section came up

I showed the guys the link to the discussion in the Swedish section

Out of nowhere you came up with a local Finnish rule regarding loadout of the German plane in Finnish service in the German section

In addition, you assessed the BR 3.0 plane as a BR 4.3 plane in the current state due to the bomb loadout

I answered that a local rule is not relevant as the manufacturer sets the parameters, not the user

I asked if your BR assessment based on loadout has to be applied to a similar plane with an even higher loadout

Furthermore, i asked about recent changes within the BR setting policy as your current assessment is 4 BR steps higher

I asked about your thoughts regarding my proposal in the Swedish forum from November 22nd

Your answer regarding local rules was not really helpful as they will be irrelevant in any case for a German plane

Your answer regarding your assessment of the similar plane was not helpful

Your answer regarding potentially existing BR change strategies was not helpful

You did not answer to my question regarding my proposals

I asked again about your opinion regarding my proposals 

Your answer was not helpful and even contradicted your own proposals

 

Imho there is too many times not helpful in this discussion. 

 

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

1 hour ago, Thodin said:

Mostly Ground RB...maybe just 2-3 matches or something to spade it in Air RB. 

 

Thx to the airbrake and bomb sight autopilot off you can use it with great precision. I don't have a screenshot for an recent A-4 game, but I also used the A-1 quite often during the last grind event and it allows you to succesfully engage several player tanks. I drop the 50 kg bombs like 2-4 on one target. I prefer the 2x250 + 28x 50kg loadout. For the A-4 its the 2x 500 kg + 28x 50kg one. 

 

However, since the He-111 with that super "Max" bomb is a thing, I usually use this one where I used the A-4 in the past. I just wounder why so few people use bombers in RB Ground.

 

Thx for the nice feed back and nice results in the screenshots! Not bad!

 

Ok, your usage of the plane in Ground RB explains the very high loss ratio in combination with a low win rate compared to Air RB. I use from time to time for a real relaxing gameplay the A-1 too. Incredibly strong plane a BR 2.0 with very high survivability if you know how to fly a bomber. I have about 120 to 130 matches in it and lost just 2 planes with an 80% win rate. 1 to this xxxxing midmap aaa, and 1 to a low tier clubber in the totally undertiered japan 109 E-7.

 

And i was wondering why the A-4 raised so rapidly from 2.3 to 3.0, i assumed either massive usage in Ground RB or that most dedicated German bomber pilots are trying to avoid the massive Wyvern and Xp50 spam in the BR range 3.0 to 5.0. Looks like the 2nd assumption.

 

Hope you had fun reading my novel addressed to you. I am out of both discussions, here and in the Swedish section. I made proposals in both, if the fellow players consider following them fine, if not still ok. As mentioned before i won't fly it again anyway but i wish you and other A-4 users gl and hf!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Uncle J Wick@live

[Thodin 6,784]

1 hour ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

 

 

Ok, your usage of the plane in Ground RB explains the very high loss ratio in combination

 

Yeah, I tend to crash the plane once the ordnance is used up and when I need to spawn a ground unit. Often you get shot down anyways as well. So in Ground RB its mostly 1 spawn = one loss, since landing and rearming takes far too much time.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Thodin

[blockhaj 3,560]

17 hours ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

snip

Was talking about the german one. The finnish one should be two separate aircraft.

[Uncle J Wick@live 407]

Idk what your problem is, and tbh idc.

 

20 hours ago, blockhaj said:

Was talking about the german one. The finnish one should be two separate aircraft.

 

You have obviously missed some points:

 

There is no Finnish Ju88 A-4, all we have is another skin on the German Ju88 A-4

Considering implementing a 20mm field kit (available on all fronts) requires a change of the German A-4

Considering a higher loadout requires a change of the loadout of the German A-4

Mentioning max loadout in Finnland is absolutely irrelevant as actual usage and ability of the German plane matters

Reading a finnish manual is a waste of resources, Same as you would refer to Finnish speed limit discussing a Porsche

 

If you would consider to be a real benefit for gaijin and wt players in this particular issue, you would probably:

 

Start thinking as a corporate guy - development of a localized Finnish version makes zero economic sense

Stop throwing around BR opinions like here 4.3 for a 3.0 plane and other not helpful stuff

Talk to your German counterpart as he would be in charge as your Swedish tree would just get the result via copy + paste 

Work or help on a change of the loadout of the plane to make it better useable whilst keeping the BR at 3.0

Work or help on an increase of the bombload as requested by some guys in a second variant of the German plane

Work or help on the option for 20mm gun as replacement for standard bombsight in the second variant of the German plane

Convince gaijin that the 2 planes - early and late version - can be easily implemented to the Italian tree - u need just another skin

 

And if you have done this, and u have maybe considered to add some torpedo options for the German plane in German, Italian, Romanian , .... services you can start thinking about adding random stuff or funny pictures and comments to serious discussions.

[Thodin 6,784]

16 hours ago, Uncle J Wick@live said:

Idk what your problem is, and tbh idc.

 

 

You have obviously missed some points:

 

There is no Finnish Ju88 A-4, all we have is another skin on the German Ju88 A-4

Considering implementing a 20mm field kit (available on all fronts) requires a change of the German A-4

Considering a higher loadout requires a change of the loadout of the German A-4

Mentioning max loadout in Finnland is absolutely irrelevant as actual usage and ability of the German plane matters

Reading a finnish manual is a waste of resources, Same as you would refer to Finnish speed limit discussing a Porsche

 

If you would consider to be a real benefit for gaijin and wt players in this particular issue, you would probably:

 

Start thinking as a corporate guy - development of a localized Finnish version makes zero economic sense

Stop throwing around BR opinions like here 4.3 for a 3.0 plane and other not helpful stuff

Talk to your German counterpart as he would be in charge as your Swedish tree would just get the result via copy + paste 

Work or help on a change of the loadout of the plane to make it better useable whilst keeping the BR at 3.0

Work or help on an increase of the bombload as requested by some guys in a second variant of the German plane

Work or help on the option for 20mm gun as replacement for standard bombsight in the second variant of the German plane

Convince gaijin that the 2 planes - early and late version - can be easily implemented to the Italian tree - u need just another skin

 

And if you have done this, and u have maybe considered to add some torpedo options for the German plane in German, Italian, Romanian , .... services you can start thinking about adding random stuff or funny pictures and comments to serious discussions.

 

Also woundered why only the swedish (finnish) Ju-88-A4 should be changed....as if its no german plane... Germany provides the planes, bombs, 20mm field kits to its ally and only sweden gets it ingame or what^^ 

 

Is that the so called finnish (swedish) modification on a German Ju-88 A4 (watch Ger camo, clothing and the Balkenkreuz behind that dude in the background)?

 

Subtitle: Junkers Ju 88 A-4 - Ground-crew lifting a bomb to be atte...

Edited December 5, 2022 by Thodin

[blockhaj 3,560]

Well did the Germans remove the dive brakes?

[Chomusuke1 1,221]

On 02/12/2022 at 20:49, blockhaj said:

Maxload was 2x 1000 kg in finnish service

But even that loadout is missing from this game....

 

On 30/11/2022 at 18:34, gahab141 said:

amount of ordinance compared to what it could IRL

I did a bug report on that. Hopefully, one day gaijin will do something about it:

 

 

On 02/12/2022 at 02:34, Thodin said:

Gajin could introduce an A-4 early and late model to reflect the change over the years

The payloads did not change much. Compare these two manuals, one is from July 1941 & the other from December 1942:

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/566542-ww2-bomber-for-sweden/&do=findComment&comment=9499509

 

On 02/12/2022 at 12:31, gahab141 said:

He-111 can carry 1325 tnt (2x1000 + 1x250)...Furthermore there is He-111H16 with SC-2500 with 2720kg tnt at the same br

Both the He 111 H-6 & H-16 should not be used as a basis since their current payloads are woefully incorrect as gaijin is wrongly using an external rack meant for an He 111 H-11 or H-20 for these two aircraft. More info:

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/535170-29026-incorrectmissing-bombloads-on-the-heinkel-he-111-h-6

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/535574-29036-incorrectmissing-bombloads-on-the-heinkel-he-111-h-16

 

On 02/12/2022 at 23:38, Uncle J Wick@live said:

Schnellbomber is a myth

Only in this game since gaijin gave it a dubiously incorrect flight performance. I mean can you get it to 470 km/h &/or 510 km/h in clean configuration in this game?:

 

 

 

 

On 04/12/2022 at 16:52, Uncle J Wick@live said:

increase of the bombload as requested by some guys in a second variant of the German plane

Work or help on the option for 20mm gun as replacement for standard bombsight in the second variant of the German plane

I disagree as the Ju 88 A-4 IS the second variant of the plane, the first variant being the precursor Ju 88 A-1 with its less powerful engines, armament, & max bombload of 2,500 kg instead of the A-4's 3,000 - 3,600 kg. Even so, the A-1 has its own issues with neutered bombloads since iirc it only has 5 loadouts in this game and none of them feature the 1,000 kg or 1,800 kg bomb. Page from A-1 manual:

 

 

 

On 05/12/2022 at 13:25, blockhaj said:

Well did the Germans remove the dive brakes?

Not in that picture

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Chomusuke1

[blockhaj 3,560]

On 06/12/2022 at 12:59, Chomusuke1 said:

But even that loadout is missing from this game....

Should be there.

 

On 06/12/2022 at 12:59, Chomusuke1 said:

Not in that picture

So the Finnish Ju 88 would potentially differ from an updated German one.

[YUi_Takamura 662]

Is there anyone knows if ju88 could carry 250kg or 500kg in the bomb bay? or the bomb bay could only carry 50kg bomb? By the way, if gaijin adds secondary weapon customization for JU88, can we expect JU88 to carry 4*500kg+ 2*250kg?

 

I really wanna gaijin fixes JU88's loadout, but it seems we need to submit it again on the new Issue report website, or gaijin will forget it for a few years...