Aircraft/Loadouts German MG131 belts not historically accurate

[Tarskin 1,496]

A thread started by R_O_N_I_N evolved by contribution of Narushima and AbfangJager to demonstrate that the german MG131 (13 mm MG) in the game lacks a tracerless belt which they did have in reality (see both sources listed below).
 
A munition manual 1936-1945 and a 1944 training booklet.
 
Page 58 to 75 of the munition manual show all the different 13 mm bullets used in the 1936-1945 timeframe and the table (listed below) taken from the training booklet shows that pilots were able to choose certain bullets 'ohne L'spur' literally translating to without L'trail, which should mean 'without lighttrail'. The table clearly states that for the MG131 there were brandgranate [ = burning shell ] (page 68 of the Munition manual), translating into a I and panzergranate [ = armorpiercing shell ] (armor shells), translating into an AP bullet (page 63/64 of the munitions manual).
 
The munitions manuals shows us that there was also a springgranate [ = explosive shell ] (page 60 of the munitions manual) and a panzerbrandgranate [ = armorpiercing burning shell ] (page 75 of the munitions manual). these bullet are not listed in the standard MG131 table (from the 1944 booklet), we can infer however that they were used on aircraft (else it would not be in the munitions manual).
 
This data taken together indicates that the 13 mm MG131 had access to AP-T / AP-I / I and HE shells therefore a belt without the AP-T should be available. We can see an example for this in the bottom picture (ground crew loading a belt with 2 HE and 1 I bullet per 'cycle'). I have to point out that the picture displays a MG151 instead of a MG131 but it illustrates that the germans were known to use the HE/I belt which should be a possibility for the MG131 as well (based on available bullets).
 




-- EDIT / ADDITION --

I wish to include the following piece of text from R_O_N_I_N which explores the balance issue of the subject:
 

From a perspective of playability/balance:

-The need for surprise. German planes as the game´s "boom ´n zoomers" depend like no other nation on the need for a surprise moment. Variants like the G6 or K4 do not deliver this needed characteristic, as their tracered 13mm belt always gives them away to the enemy.
Especially in hightier engagements, where you have maybe but 1 chance to get that enemy, he will recognize me due to the tracers and consequently start evasive maneuvers.

-Facing a jet in a prop-plane. It is already hard to fly against jets in prop-planes, but the absolute impossibilty to keep stealthy and get a second salvo on the enemy unrecognized, increases that competetion (prop versus jet) from "very challenging" to "often frustrating".
The already rare chances one gets to fire at a jet in range, are further diminished due to cases, where the jet recognizes the first tracer salvo, and starts a succesful evasive maneuver.
I have a vivid memory, where I successfully sneaked around a canyon engaging a jet, who was only able to survive as my first laserbeam salvo did miss him closely. That chance was gone and in the aftermath that jet slaughtered a good portion of my team. Had I had stealth ammo, I would have hit him with the second burst. I am 100% sure about that as he had no clue about my "sneak around the canyon" maneuver.

- Lack of visibility during steep dives. When heading towards the ground from several kilometres above, I have only a few seconds of delivering a salvo that counts. This timespan already short, is even harder to be made use of, as I simply cannot see my crosshairs anymore as the middle of my screen is a laserbeamshow.

- Disadvantage during head-ons. An enemy seeing lasers fired at him will pull earlier out of the engagement, and evade my salvos. While I do not see if he is firing or not (maybe he is reloading, maybe he is damaged and cant change course... ), the enemy can be certain he is fired upon and act accordingly.

- Disadvantage using split firemodes. There would theoretically be the opportunity to split the cannons and machineguns on different triggers. But that would mean, that I would have to dismiss a significant ammount of firepower during my first strike. For the germans, depending on fast "go in, go outs" this is an huge disadvantage and I do not want to dismiss my machine guns, or only want to be able to use them once the enemy already spotted me. Its unfair for a fast boxer, to get one hand tied behind the back.

In high tier battles every advantage/disadvantage weighs heavily, and Id really like to see this german drawback corrected for the sake of playability, competitiveness and balance.

-- SUMMARY --

The documents and reasoning that we have presented should at the very least demonstrate that the bullets we mentioned did exist and were actually used and would also benefit the gameplay/balance in the game. We can compare this case with the case/evidence that was presented for some of the other 'ammo belts' currently in game for which less clear documentation was presented (certain US ammo belts as mentioned by Letherneck would be a good example here).

Edited February 24, 2014 by QuarterNinja

[letherneck 2,067]

i'll edit this after i do some further digging.

 

with all the evidence presented it would be a good implementation for game play balance...

Edited November 11, 2013 by letherneck

[sroF 15,721]

This would be great. It would make it easier to aim the Mk 108 30mm when the Mgs wouldn´t be there screwing your aim up.

[Tarskin 1,496]

zero tracer ammunition belts would not be historically correct for what war time luftwaffe pilots actually used...if gunther rall was still alive, he could and would corroborate that fact.

 

if you want to suggest zero tracer ammunition belts in luftwaffe aircraft for gameplay balance...doubt anyone would object.

 

Anecdotal evidence is just that, purely anecdotal. Any true evidence showing that this was not possible should be offered here as a counter argument but until then I do not see a single reason why pure HE/I belts (as also used on the MG151 in the picture) would not be possible.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Tarskin

[letherneck 2,067]

Anecdotal evidence is just that, purely anecdotal. The picture in the OP shows a clear tracerless belt as the HE shells and I shells are both without L'spur, see the pages in the manual that I linked.

no it doesn't...it shows black and white photos of unidentifiable 20mm belted ammunition being pulled out of a box with a narrative description written in english long after the fact. if there was a photo of the entire ammunition belt in color, the rounds would be easily identifiable, but that is not the case.

[Tarskin 1,496]

no it doesn't...it shows black and white photos of unidentifiable 20mm belted ammunition being pulled out of a box with a narrative description written in english long after the fact. if there was a photo of the entire ammunition belt in color, the rounds would be easily identifiable, but that is not the case.

 

Fair enough on that point, the statement made in the book still stands however as well as in other books where they describe the use of HE/I belts which should also be possible/available for the MG131.

[letherneck 2,067]

Anecdotal evidence is just that, purely anecdotal.

that would be a justified argument in this case if it wasn't for the luftwaffe command structure and supply system.

 

 

Fair enough on that point, the statement made in the book still stands however as well as in other books where they describe the use of HE/I belts which should also be possible/available for the MG131.

neither the book nor that manual reflect the fact that such decisions were mandated at the highest levels within the 3rd reich. the command structure left a lot of individual command decisions out of the hands of local command officers. for instance in august 1944 a luftwaffe general order went out to all squadrons stating that pilots were not to deploy flaps above 400mph (643.7kph) indicated air speed at any altitude. it was due to reported incidents of flaps being damaged in flight and some pilots being forced to bail out when their planes went out of control when flaps malfunctioned.

 

what you have is evidence of available ammunition types by caliber and a book that with pictures and articles showing ammunition being loaded, but no general order specifically stating that ammunition belts without tracer ammunition were to be assembled at the factory or in the field at the squadron level. find something like that and it would validate any claims of non-tracer ammunition belts being used.

Edited November 11, 2013 by letherneck

[Tarskin 1,496]

(on mobile so short message) I have not looked for any information regarding general orders and the implication of said orders on the availability of munition belts.

I would appreciate it if someone can post a source for such an order here if they have access to such a source (if they exist).

I will wait with any additional claims/argument until then.

(train arriving at station)

[Narushima 3,307]

Officers often went against the wishes and orders of the LW high command, so even if there was the very unlikely order (for which you have yet to provide any actual source) that all MG 131 are to be used with tracer ammunition at all cost, officers like Erich Hartmann (who got a lot of his kills be being stealthy) would have simply ignored them.

 

But that's besides the point. In the pilot's manual above, it is directly stated that each pilot decides on the amount of tracer shell in his belt. If you have any evidence to contradict it, then by all means, present it. Otherwise, you're just speculating here.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Narushima

[letherneck 2,067]

Officers often went against the wishes and orders of the LW high command, so even if there was the very unlikely order (for which you have yet to provide any actual source) that all MG 131 are to be used with tracer ammunition at all cost, officers like Erich Hartmann (who got a lot of his kills be being stealthy) would have simply ignored them.

 

But that's besides the point. In the pilot's manual above, it is directly stated that each pilot decides on the amount of tracer shell in his belt. If you have any evidence to contradict it, then by all means, present it. Otherwise, you're just speculating here.

erich hartmann did not use tracerless ammunition belts...nice try.

 

you can jump on that bone as long as you want. that manual is nothing more than information and nothing states pilots had control over what they loaded their weapons with. those decisions filtered down to the squadron commands from the highest levels. the need for proof is on you not the other way around and you have yet to provide any proof.

[Narushima 3,307]

No, the burden of proof is on you here. We have provided you proof, but you've chose to ignore it. It's on you to prove disprove the information. You make big claims about how the documents here don't mean a thing because LW command... Well prove it. Until then, the proof here stands.

[AbfangJager 8,028]

Erich Hartmann Reloading Bf109 G Mg131 Shell

 

[Sidiros 4,914]

No what cracks me up with this whole argument?

 

This game is filled with historical inaccuracies, absolutely filled with them; however, this instance needs absolute proof of though.  

 

Just everyone ignore the fact that the US is flying P-63 as a main fighter in this game; which, they never ever flew operationally into combat historically and there are X-planes and captured equipment in droves...

[Tarskin 1,496]

Anyone have a sheet ready with the Luftwaffe color coding of bullets?

[letherneck 2,067]

Erich Hartmann Reloading Bf109 G Mg131 Shell

 

since it's black and white photos, look really close at each of the first 10 rounds...the bands tell a lot. easy to see they aren't reloading, they are working on the guns...may have been a maintenance issue or a malfunction.

 

 

 

No what cracks me up with this whole argument?

 

This game is filled with historical inaccuracies, absolutely filled with them; however, this instance needs absolute proof of though.  

 

Just everyone ignore the fact that the US is flying P-63 as a main fighter in this game; which, they never ever flew operationally into combat historically and there are X-planes and captured equipment in droves...

the case for non tracer belts of luftwaffe ammunition should be made on basis of game play balance using the fact that non-tracer ammunition was indeed manufactured. that is the strongest and easily backed case.

 

looking at the evidence for non-tracer ammunition belts on u.s. planes, it's less conclusive than what should have been considered. 

[Tarskin 1,496]

looking at the evidence for non-tracer ammunition belts on u.s. planes, it's less conclusive than what should have been considered. 

 

That is an argument that could be used indeed altho it feels like a cheap trick to me saying something like: "The evidence for belt X on nation Y is poor yet they have it so nation Z should have a similar belt."

 

That is what you are suggesting, correct?

[letherneck 2,067]

That is an argument that could be used indeed altho it feels like a cheap trick to me saying something like: "The evidence for belt X on nation Y is poor yet they have it so nation Z should have a similar belt."

 

That is what you are suggesting, correct?

honestly, with the evidence presented for the luftwaffe ammunition, it's just as strong (if not stronger) as what was presented for the u.s. ammunition. and i haven't found anything for the other countries that is any stronger. back it up with the argument for gameplay balance. if the ammunition existed and was available for the air forces at all (as evidence does show) then it makes sense if one country has it, others should as well. you have the evidence to show it was available, and that luftwaffe pilots could choose to utilize it. 

 

whether pilots really did use it or not would no longer be the argument...same as all the others that have the option available.

[R_O_N_I_N 1,938]

I might be a little dumb, but I really dont see the problem. Aynone can explain to me in layman´s terms what the issue is? I really dont get it.

Edited November 12, 2013 by R_O_N_I_N

[letherneck 2,067]

I might be a little dumb, but I really dont see the problem. Aynone can explain to me in layman´s terms what the issue is? I really dont get it.

with the last edit Tarskin made, there isn't a problem. i did ask a mod to clean this discussion up so it could be discussed further without the now irrelevant responses. gotta wait a couple of days...

[BratwurstBob 3,855]

We've had this discussion before and if I may pitch in:

This was taken to the devs on several occasions and the argument is still valid: its not available as the germans did not use pure Stealth 13mm ammo.

 

The list above is using abbreviations for the 13mm ammunition being used. But we will get to that a bit further down.

 

The 2 different ammo variants used for the 13mm guns can be read about in the LDv 4000/10, the general ammunition manual for on-board weapons (Munitionsvorschrift für Fliegerbordwaffen).

 

 

There, in the section about the 13mm ammunition we find all available types. Note that there is a difference for the entries for 1942 and 1944. 

 

 

Those are all the available types in 1942: all contain tracer.

 

 

1944 sees the addition of 2 more types, and one type is without tracer.

____________________________________________________________________________________

 

Here are the 2 types commonly used for belting purposes and used as reference in the summary picture above.

 

 

The above is the Incendiary from the first list.

 

 

And the Armor piercing. This document is from the Rechlin, where the ammo was tested.

[BratwurstBob 3,855]

And here the 2 pages from the LDv 4000/10 which summarize all the german ammunitions and were the basis for the 13mm ammo available in game: (1942 and 1944)

 

 

L'spur = Leuchtspur = tracer

Gl'spur = Glimmspur = night tracer (less bright)

 

the numbers in front of the ammunition type means the amount per type when belting the ammunition, the first page indicates a mix of ratio of 1:1.

 

So when a unit ordered ammunition they had the above listed sorts as options. As much as I would like to have all-stealth ammo on my 13mm guns as well, the fact stands that they always contained some amount of tracers. 

[BratwurstBob 3,855]

This is what the ammunition looks like in real life.

 

 13 mm Brandgranatpatrone L'spur (or Gl'spur) ohne Zerl

 13 mm Panzergranatpatrone L'Spur (or Gl'spur) ohne Zerl

 13 mm Sprenggranate L'Spur (or Gl'spur) ohne Zerl 

 13 mm Panzerbrandgranatpatrone Phosphor ohne Zerl

[R_O_N_I_N 1,938]

As you said it was proposed multiple times already. I dont understand why Gaijin would refuse this because of "historical accuracy". This game bends historical accuracy everywhere for the sake of playability and balance.

 

You make germans the "surprise attack nation", but how shall we play that way firing laserbeams around?

 

Theres easily a thousand other aspects in this game where "historical accuracy" was bent in playability´s favour. And gaijin always has to rank playability higher than historical accuracy. The very planes we fly are performing historically incorrect , planes that in real life underperformed get buffed in order to give each nation equal chances. That has to be done and Gaijin did a very good job so far at it. I do not negate that. Its a very entertaining game, but the tracer ammo issue spoils the beans for many (most?) german high tier players. And there is the emphasis OpInfo: P-L-A-Y-E-R-S. I am a player, not a simulator-tester who gives a hood about what each MG was named, or what muzzle velocity this or that had.

 

99% of your customers dont give a flying hood bout such things!

 

This is a game aimed at mainstream, till this stressfull thread born out of mere frustration I wouldnt have given a flying ***** of how this or that MG is named or what bullets it shot. And I wouldnt have wasted my prescious spare time on reading boring weapons articles to find out and proove to those tech-fanatics if or if not that ammo was used or not.  

 

Please keep in mind Gaijin and the other posters:

I know that Gaijin has high standarts with regards to historical accuracy, and rightly so, but we are not proposing an E75 fantasy tank here but a simple new ammo type the community would welcome, and is needed for the germans to keep their character as surprise attackers in high tiers aswell.

 

We are not talking about a NASA simulation, but about an entertainment product with historical touch.

 

Do you really think the majority of players will be happy to find out, that the way they played the germans in lower tiers (till tier 9) for hundreds or thousands of matches, all of a sudden do not work anymore the way they did? You think they will be happy to find out, that they suddenly have to face such an enourmous drawback (and I do not exxaggerate using that term here), which is totally unncecessary and self-inflicted.

Do you think "casualgamer" will say:

"Eh? No stealth ammo anymore? Its okay then! I favour historical accuracy higher than fun anyways. "

 

 

 

Thats a very optimistic point of view, I guess.

 

You cater to a <1% minority of history and technology hacks, and do not focus on the 99% of your community, that is here, and paying here, for fun.

[BratwurstBob 3,855]

13mm stealth ammo was proposed twice in July and August to the devs and they rejected it on the basis that the germans did not belt pure stealth belts. 

 

But since I think a 3rd time can't hurt I will suggest it once more, this time with the emphasis on "player friendliness", which makes sense. There is the AP-I ammo which was without tracers, but don't hold your breath until this might get into the game.

 

Tracker ID 9405

[R_O_N_I_N 1,938]

Your efforts are kindly appreceated OpInfo. Thank you.