Marder DF 105 with FL-20 turret (Clovis)

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

Briefly: A further development of the Marder DF 105 FL-15 with the new FL-20 turret. Armed with a 105mm and coaxial 20mm.

 

 

 

Similar to its predecessor, the Clovis tank/project had a German hull by Thyssen Henschel and a French-made turret by the Fives Cail Babcock company. The Clovis variant was a further development in cooperation by the two companies. As with its predecessor, the vehicle also used a modified Marder chassis but this time equipped with the FL-20 turret.

The project was put in motion in 1982, the first prototype was built in 1983 and finished in 1985 for trials. The project was then canceled in 1988.

 

The Clovis’ Turret (FL-20):

The 2-man turret is equipped with a GIAT 105 mm 105G1 gun with muzzle brake and thermal sleeve and a GIAT 20mm F2 (M693) coaxial. A total of 400 rounds of 20 mm are carried ready for immediate use. The turret has two drum-type magazines, each with six rounds of ammunition. Apparently rounds could also be directly introduced into the breech. The FL-20 turret was also fitted on a AMX-30 MBT chassis for trial purposes and according to Fives-Cail Babcock is also suitable for installation on any tracked or wheeled chassis weighing over 12 tonnes. The weight of the FL-20 turret depends on armament and optional equipment installed, and ranges from 5800 to 6300 kg, the latter figure relating to the version with 20 mm coaxial cannon. The FL-20 turret is an all welded steel armour construction and is NBC proof. Compared with the earlier FL turrets it not only has much greater armour protection, especially over the sides due to the overlapping armour on the lower part of the turret, but has much more room, improving crew efficiency.

 

The commander is seated on the left of the turret with the gunner on the right; both have a single piece hatch cover that opens to the rear; the commander's station is raised slightly above that of the gunner for improved all round observation. The commander and gunner each have a day/night sight mounted in the turret roof forward of their hatch covers. The commander has six periscopes for all round observation while the gunner has two that give observation to the front and right side.

 

The Clovis’ Hull (Marder):

I could not find any information on the modifications made to the Marder hull for the Clovis prototype. It is possible that it possessed the same modifications than its predecessor the Marder DF 105 FL-15. This included a more powerful 720hp MB-833 Ka-500 engine just like the one used by the TAM.

 

If anybody finds more informations on the vehicle please add it below and I will update the post. I found someone mentioned there is some info of the vehicle in Jane's Armour and Artillery 1987-88 (pages 37-38). If someone has access to this source please check. Also, some of the info above is based on an extract I found from a 1985 article from Jane's Defence Weekly. I am not sure what issue the magazine is but i’ll put the link down below.

 

Sources:

• https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=1169 (page 2) 
• 1985 magazine article from Jane's Defence Weekly by Christopher F Foss (do not have the issue number, sorry) here is a link to the extract of this article https://strangernn.livejournal.com/612025.html If someone can find the original magazine issue please post it bellow. 
• Thanks to @FORMATOSE for providing the following:

 

 

Sources pending consulting: (if someone has access to them please post them bellow)

• Jane's Armour and Artillery 1987-88 (pages 37-38)

Edited May 30, 2020 by *gojuancamilo

[Princess_Pinch 5,625]

Open for discussion. 

[Matt_82 1,096]

I'm guessing that this would have the same non-stabilisation that French vehicles get in the game?  If so, it might be something to fit into the space between the WWII vehicles and the Leo 1.

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

On 07/05/2019 at 22:31, Matt_82 said:

I'm guessing that this would have the same non-stabilisation that French vehicles get in the game?

I am not sure, there was no info referring to the presence or absence of a stabilizer. This detail is very important for the vehicles implementation. Being a french oscillating turret, its probable the FL-20 turret does not have any stabilization as with its predecessors. Despite this, the Clovis is a much modern vehicle and there is a possibility it was installed with a stabilizer to align it with modern standards. Specially so, considering it was developed for the export market in which customer specifications would require stabilized platforms. 

 

On 07/05/2019 at 22:31, Matt_82 said:

If so, it might be something to fit into the space between the WWII vehicles and the Leo 1.

It is important to find out if it had stabilizer. If it didn't I think it would have a higher BR than the Leo 1 (similar gun, similar mobility, better fire rate due to autoloader, better shells and a 20mm coaxial) but a lower BR than the Leo A1A1 (lack of stabilizer). More suitable vehicles must be chosen to fill the space between WWII vehicles and the Leo 1, specially considering the Panther II and the Tiger II 105 will be removed soon. 

Edited May 9, 2019 by *gojuancamilo

[Matt_82 1,096]

5 hours ago, *gojuancamilo said:

better shells

 

Ah I was assuming it would be solid shot and APDS.  

 

I don't think the Panther II or Tiger II 105 will be removed soon.  Maybe/probably at some point but they've given no suggestion that they've identified suitable replacements.

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

+1

I think this would go great after the Begleitpanzer, hopefully we will get some more Marder based vehicles.

[Milocat 4,854]

+1.  This could be a very fun high-speed vehicle that can fight tanks!

[FORMATOSE 901]

Turret stabilization was available as an option :

 

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

Absolutely, this would be a great light tank! +1

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

Thanks for the extra info Auto_tracking! I will add it to the suggestion.

On 13/12/2019 at 15:58, Auto_tracking said:

Turret stabilization was available as an option :

 

 

[KOISHI_KOMEIJI 194]

You got my vote on this one, very nice design, and specs

[Solarmod 1,203]

I'm very interested in this, very cool. +1 from me.

[Guinespsj 1,003]

Highly interesting vehicle + 1 from me.

[stefffff1871 2,448]

-1 nah thx, i dont need even more protos

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

On 03/03/2020 at 04:12, stefffff1871 said:

-1 nah thx, i dont need even more protos

Just curious, what is your argument against prototypes?

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

On 05/03/2020 at 14:58, *gojuancamilo said:

Just curious, what is your argument against prototypes?

 

There are more than enough series production vehicles that Germany fields or fielded, that are yet to be introduced, so I also don't see the need for this.

[Cedjoe 5,482]

I think the regular DF-105 should go to Germany and this one to France, as there are other options with the FL 12 turret of the DF 105 for France, while this turret is unique since there are no infos on the AMX-30 version. Most advantages and main features of the vehicle are french, including the 105 and 20mm cannons, the autoloader and the oscillating turret.

[Arakneo 856]

i think both france and germany should get it and that it should be foldered with the sk105

[Cedjoe 5,482]

If Germany gets the exclusivity for this, France will either have to get the AMX-30 of which I couldn't find any picture, or the version on a Swiss Shark chassis 

[chouettepatate 31]

It say on the brochure that it can be stabilize, on the third page

[gojuancamilo@psn 307]

4 hours ago, chouettepatate said:

It say on the brochure that it can be stabilize, on the third page

And also that it can have thermals...

[Cedjoe 5,482]

Found another pic

Spoiler

 

[LeGrandSarrazin 753]

Not 100% sure this is what you're looking for, as I don't have access to A&A 87-88, but I do have access to AFV Retrofit Systems 88-89 which has a section on FL-20:

 

 

 

 

I do have access to A&A 85-86 though, and this is what they had to say about Marder and FL-20:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope I could be of help.

Cheers!

[LeGrandSarrazin 753]

Oh, and just my two-cents. In the poll you list one of the options is France getting an AMX-30 with FL-20.

My only issue is, I can nowhere find any evidence that this ever occurred. I have looked for quite sometime, having heavily researched French combat vehicles for some years. And not once has a mention, let alone a photograph or even drawing popped-up of this combination existing.

Trust me, it would have been rather intriguing to my friends and myself if we had come across it.

 

The closest I can find is this mention in JDW 1985, "The French Army may fit an FL-20 turret to an AMX-30 MBT chassis for trials purposes."

https://strangernn.dreamwidth.org/604541.html?thread=12082813

This seems to be the same place you read it from.

 

I can only assume it is a mistake, misremembered, or another famous myth of French armored vehicles, of which there are many. Or just planned, and never happened.

 

The only two vehicles known to have mounted the FL-20 are the Marder/Clovis, and MOWAG Shark. The same two pictured in all FL-20 entries in Jane's.

 

If Germany were to get Clovis, and France got Shark FL-20, I'd be more than okay with that conclusion, as only Germany getting Clovis (as would be expected) would be a terribly fraught decision, as the SK-105 fiasco bore out.

If both nations got an FL-20 mounted vehicle, without resorting to both nations getting Clovis (which I would like to avoid), it would be the best conclusion to that likely future issue.

 

That's just my opinion, of course.

 

Cheers!

Edited May 2, 2021 by LeGrandSarrazin

[KilianL 865]

I really like the vehicule and really like the suggestion. 

However about the FL20 mounted on an amx 30, i havent found anything at all. 

 

I would suggest that the vehicule comes to both trees, since its literraly 50/50 Franco german. 

 

I for one dont mind copy paste, if the vehicule is good why not spade it twice. 

 

also could be added with a flag like this : 

remember, nowadays these 2 countries are the biggest bros in the EU, why not show it in game as well.