Jagdtiger (P) - Tiger 105 Replacement

[Ghostmaxi 872]

Why would you want a 88 jagttiger ? 

You could just use a normal tiger II 

[kamikazi21358 998]

4 hours ago, Ghostmaxi said:

Why would you want a 88 jagttiger ? 

You could just use a normal tiger II 

Well, a 8.8cm Jagdtiger would also have 250mm RHA instead of a turret.

[jacejax 167]

None of the wiki pages I see have any primary sources besides the blueprints themselves but they are pretty detailed in what was requested, designed, and produced so they must have documents talking about it somewhere, ill do some more digging. 

As it turns out there may have been 5 different variations proposed, designed, and made, with different engines and transmissions. Honestly Gaijin would have a field day with this one. I agree it probably dosnt belong in the main line but it should be an easily acquirable premium like for GE to bolster the 6.3-7.3 bracket for germany. I do think that the Rear turret version would be an alright replacment for the 10.5 tbh, the 10.5 was never strong because of its gun, it was still playing the same as a regular tiger, the rear turret one just feels like it would be able to do the tigers job better. Id say use the 88 jagtiger but replacing a turret tank with a casemate is just a no no for me. 

[Wolf_89 2,524]

Is there any pics of any of the 3 variants of the VK 45.02 (P)?

I have only seen text claiming that they existed. Just like the JagdTiger 88.

 

And it would be easy for the Germans to add the 88cm to a Jagdtiger chassis. If they did not have the needed gun.

And it would be better to do that then just let the chassis sit and wait for a gun.

Would be smarter to.

 

As for Jagdtiger (P) to replace the Tiger 105? One was a heavy tank with a turret. One is a casemate style TD.

Don't see how it would be a good replacement. I would like to see Jagdtiger (P) being added.

Either in a folder with the current Jagdtiger. Or as a prem.

 

And there wont be much pics on vehicles made late in the war. In Germany. Since they had more important things to think about.

Then to take pics of things. People say that the Ostwind 2 existed. I haven't seen any pics.

I have read that people claimed that it existed. But never seen any prof of it. So they can add the Jagdtiger 88 to.

The chassis existed. And the gun existed. We just don't have the pics to prov the where ever put together 

[HMSD33Dauntless 1,257]

Would definitely be interested in seeing historical photos of the VK 45.02 (P)s. As far as I'm aware no variants of the VK 45.02 (P) hull were ever built, they were paper, but I could be (and I actually hope) I'm wrong.

 

You're probably right that there's not a lot of German tanks comparable to the Tiger II 105 in terms of role and performance (With the exception of some East German-used Soviet vehicles) and that this is the closest we can get, but I still don't think we can consider this to be a "replacement" for the KT 105. The lack of a turret matters a lot more than people usually give it credit for as it tends to make the tank more unwieldy as a whole, especially when the chassis already has low mobility. I do think it should be added, but putting it in the heavy tank line and considering it to fulfill the role of the Tiger II 105 isn't the best option for it.

[Gebafado_BR 12]

On 15/08/2019 at 16:20, kamikazi21358 said:

Use this backside to differentiate from the regular jagdtiger

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Gebafado_BR
2 same photographs

[jacejax 167]

People have got to get over their hatred of paper tanks, if the data is all there, if the design is not to far out there then i see no reason why we cant have it. Im never opposed to adding more vehicles. 

[Zombificus 792]

On 16/09/2019 at 22:18, HMSD33Dauntless said:

Would definitely be interested in seeing historical photos of the VK 45.02 (P)s. As far as I'm aware no variants of the VK 45.02 (P) hull were ever built, they were paper, but I could be (and I actually hope) I'm wrong.

 

You're probably right that there's not a lot of German tanks comparable to the Tiger II 105 in terms of role and performance (With the exception of some East German-used Soviet vehicles) and that this is the closest we can get, but I still don't think we can consider this to be a "replacement" for the KT 105. The lack of a turret matters a lot more than people usually give it credit for as it tends to make the tank more unwieldy as a whole, especially when the chassis already has low mobility. I do think it should be added, but putting it in the heavy tank line and considering it to fulfill the role of the Tiger II 105 isn't the best option for it.

 

I distinctly recall seeing a photo a while back of three rear-turret VK 45.02(P)s on a train, as well as a version of it that had been photoshopped to give them late-war "Henschel" turrets. I've been trying to find it, but it's nowhere to be seen now. It's entirely possible even the original version of the photo was simply a photoshop as well, hence its disappearance, but if it was, whoever doctored the image did a great job making it so convincing. The only source I've been able to find with anything specific on the 45.02(P) being completed was this site. It references various reports, which point to just one VK 45.02(P) having been built, plus two completed hulls. From these reports, we can see that Porsche's engine for the 45.02(P) failed during testing in 1942, leading to the vehicle's cancellation and the order for 200 production vehicles being replaced by an order for just 3 Versuchs-Panzers. In January 1943, Krupp reported delivery of the three Versuchs-Panzer hulls to the Nibelungenwerk factory for completion; in February, Porsche reported that this process was almost finished, with the three hulls in the process of being fitted with an air-cooled diesel engine, redesigned hydraulic drives and improved suspension.

 

Every source seems to assume these hulls were, indeed, completed shortly after; we only know that in April 1944, Krupp reported they had completed one of the three turrets and almost finished the other two, and that by August those two turrets, now completed, were redirected along with the other "Porsche" turrets built before 45.02(P)'s cancellation to the production lines of Henschel's Tiger II. A lot of wartime factory reports have been lost, so if there was a report of the hulls being completed between Feb '43 and April '44, we don't have it, just as we also have no surviving report of the turret Krupp completed in April having been fitted before August. The decision to repurpose all available "Porsche" turrets for series production of Henschel's vehicle in August 1944 strongly implies that this was when the Versuchs-Panzer project was finally abandoned, which lends credence to the idea that the hulls were, indeed, finished. If, after reporting they were almost done in Feb '43, Porsche had been unable to actually finish the job, why would the war ministry bother continuing the project for so long?

 

The final Tiger II had already started mass-production in January of 1944 and first saw combat in July of that year (source: The Tank Museum, Bovington), so if the VK 45.02(P) hull still hadn't been completed by then, why would the Versuchs-Panzer project be allowed to carry on even as far as April, when Krupp (obviously prioritising production Tiger IIs for turrets) finally delivered a spare turret for the 45.02(P) to use, let alone August of that year, by which time 14 months had passed since Porsche's report? Fond as Germany was of wasteful "Wunderwaffe" projects, it wouldn't make sense for them to keep on with a failed project for so long after its replacement had entered production unless it had promise, or to divert a turret from the production lines if there's still no completed hull to fit it to. Krupp's report that they'd delivered a turret for VK 45.02(P) in April all but confirms the project was still being worked on, so it stands to reason that in the 4 months between April and the project's apparent cancellation in August, the turret would have been fitted to a working hull. If the hulls were completed, I'd wager they were ready before January 1944 and that they were just waiting on the turrets, otherwise it's hard to justify not cancelling the project then, since Tiger II production would surely have killed off a design that had failed to even produce a working hull by that point.

 

From the reports we have, and their implications, we can say that the three hulls were almost certainly completed, and that the turret Krupp delivered was probably fitted to one of them, which gives a total production of of 1 finished VK 45.02(P) and 2 completed hulls waiting for turrets. However, there is basically no evidence of the common claim that all three tanks were finished (quite the opposite, since it's strongly implied in the August '44 report that Krupp's other two turrets for the project were reused for Tiger IIs), much less that each one had a different turret position. You could make the case that the purpose of the Versuchs-Panzer order might have been to test the effects of different arrangements, but by 1944 I doubt there would have been any use to that as the Tiger II was already in full production with a conventional turret. If I had to make a guess, the three VK 45.02(P)s' continued development into 1944 might have been out of hopes they'd be useful in developing the Maus, which used a similar electric transmission -- this actually lines up, as Krupp were ordered to halt all production of the Maus in August 1944, the same month the remaining turrets meant for VK 45.02(P) were commandeered for Tiger II production and the Versuchs-Panzers were presumably cancelled for good. With Maus production cancelled, there would be no need for Versuchs-Panzers to gain experience with and train crews for the Porsche electric transmission system, which could explain why the project was cancelled then and not in January, when the Tiger II entered production. 

 

The same source that provides the wartime reports claims that the finished VK 45.02(P) used the front-mounted turret arrangement. While they don't provide a report that backs this up, it does make sense that this would be the production form of the tank. The front is the only position where the mantlet wouldn't form a shot-trap, and it's unlikely that they'd have designed the turret front with that complex shape if it was going to provide such an obvious weakness for weaker tanks to exploit, when a flatter front (like the final Tiger II turret) would be much easier to produce and would avoid that issue while still being strong. Also in support of this being the correct placement is the fact that Porsche's VK 45.01 was also built this way, and the 45.02(P) hull was largely based on its predecessor (along with influence from the Panther). If this was the version of the VK 45.02(P) that was built, this might actually make it better Tiger II (H) as far as War Thunder goes. Consider this: the shot trap that makes Tiger II (P) worse than (H) doesn't exist on the 45.02(P), far less of the hull needs to be exposed to fire round corners, and since it uses Porsche's electrical transmission it should be able to go full speed in reverse as well as forwards. Depending on how well it actually plays in the game, it could be good enough to replace Tiger II (105).

 

To bring this back to the actual suggestion I'm commenting on, I don't think Jagdtiger (P) is going to replace Tiger II (105) outright because their playstyles and roles are very different, but as far as being something else for German tankers to have in their lineup, it definitely fits the bill. Given that the transmission is slightly worse and the JT(P) is a very early-production vehicle, it could perhaps have worse mobility in the game than the existing Jagdtiger, just as something to set the two apart. It likely wouldn't be all that much worse, not without being unrealistic, but it wouldn't need to be to have an effect; I can see it working as a Tiger H1/E thing, where the improvements are quite small but you still notice the difference when you play the later model. Anyway, I do support this vehicle getting in, even if it's not a perfect 1:1 replacement for the Tiger II (105).

Edited September 25, 2019 by Zombificus

[Ryan_King 907]

Would still be a cool Event/Squadron/Premium Vehicle on 6.3 with the 8.8 as the T28 counterpart for Germany.

[Borotovas 4,500]

+1

[Raiden_Black 1,875]

Wasn't there Jagdtigers with the 88mm gun installed?

Edited March 13, 2022 by Raiden_Black

[lLiberté 345]

On 08/03/2022 at 17:44, Raiden_Black said:

Wasn't here Jagdtigers with 88mm guns installed?

 Presumably yes but there is no photographical evidence found so far. Though sources that mentions 88 armed Jadgtiger's are quite reputable, still there were some mistakes on those sources too.

[Chomusuke1 1,217]

[MadDaishi 920]

1 hour ago, Chomusuke1 said:

it's Motorbuch Tiger und Seine Abarten by Walter Spielberger
some research showed that he is the only one claiming that some Jagdtiger where equipped with the 8,8cm Pak 43/4
and further research by other authors and hstoricans showed that the claims from Spielberger could not be proven,

since most documents where gone/destroyed

so for me this Jagdtiger version ranges in the WhatIf area

 

[Chomusuke1 1,217]

On 14/03/2022 at 05:59, MadDaishi said:

it's Motorbuch Tiger und Seine Abarten by Walter Spielberger...Jagdtiger version ranges in the WhatIf area

 

Actually, it is from Jagdtiger: The Most Powerful Armoured Fighting Vehicle of World War II: TECHNICAL HISTORY and I agree with you since the excerpt states "remained non-deployed at the factory":

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Chomusuke1

[MadDaishi 920]

5 hours ago, Chomusuke1 said:

Actually it is from Jagdtiger: The Most Powerful Armoured Fighting Vehicle of World War II: TECHNICAL HISTORY page 11 and I agree with you since the excerpt states "remained non-deployed at the factory"

 

exactly the same words are found in the original first Motorbuch book translation to english from Spielberger about the Tiger which is the Source for most of the Tiger knowledge some authors try to distribute

[nd4spd1919 3]

I'm going to have to say no, not right now. Without any meaningful difference between the designs, the Jagdtiger we have in game is enough, not to mention that a heavy and slow casemate TD is in no way a replacement for a much more mobile and turreted heavy tank. You'd have better luck replacing the 10.5 with either with one of the VK prototype designs or by adding the 6 round revolver-style autoloader Tiger II in, and even that was just the single produced gun in a wooden mockup turret. I'd love to have that in, but hardliners might disagree.

[leroyonly 4,310]

This suggestion has been passed to the developers for consideration .