RakJPz 3 "Jaguar 1A3": Ultimate Raketenjagdpanzer

[Zombificus 793]

 

The Raketenjagdpanzer 3, AKA Jaguar 1, was a further upgrade of the Raketenjagdpanzer 2 beyond the initial HOT missile installation, featuring additional applique armour and, in its ultimate form as Jaguar 1A3, thermal imaging and improved missiles such as the HOT-2, HOT-2MP and HOT-3. As Jaguar 1A3, it replaced the TOW-armed RakJPz 4 "Jaguar 2" in service to become the last of the Raketenjagdpanzer line begun with RakJPz 1 back in 1961. In its most powerful form, wielding tandem-warhead HOT-3 ATGMs with 1250mm RHA penetration, Jaguar 1A3 is a much more lethal vehicle than its predecessor RakJPz 2 (HOT), and as such I am suggesting it as a full Rank VII tank destroyer, to be placed at a similar BR to the current highest tanks in the game. My reasoning for the addition of such a vehicle is that in the space of a few updates, the top-ranked vehicles in the game have gone from relatively weak but technologically advanced Type 74, to the composite-armoured M1 Abrams, and now the extremely powerful Leopard 2A5. If the current pace of advancement continues, we will soon be contending with vehicles equivalent to or better than Leopard 2A5, at which point we will need more powerful non-MBT options with which to counter the new top dogs, hence this suggestion.

 

Please note that I am not suggesting Jaguar 1A3 for immediate addition to the game, but rather as a preemptive counter to recently-suggested tanks like the M1 Abrams "Thumper", Object 292 and the KMW/Nexter EMBT, which could push the technological ceiling of War Thunder past the ability of vehicles like Shturm-S and RakJPz 2 (HOT) to easily deal with. I wouldn't dream of this vehicle fighting anything below 9.0 and it would ideally receive a BR above 10.0 if such BRs are introduced, presumably joining the more powerful tanks currently at 10.0 above that, at the absolute top of the game. I am also aware that RakJPz 3 Jaguar 1 was already suggested by *Arkel-99 and was passed into "Implemented Suggestions" upon the addition of RakJPz 2 (HOT), but where his suggestion was for the initial 1978 Jaguar 1 A0A1 (essentially a RakJPz 2 (HOT) with applique plates), mine is for the 1993 Jaguar 1A3 with the full suite of missile and sighting upgrades, representing the absolute best of the Raketenjagdpanzer line.

 

 

History:

 

Beginning in 1978, 316 Raketenjagdpanzer 2s were upgraded by Thyssen-Henschel with spaced applique armour and the Euromissile HOT-3KS launcher (no relation to the HOT-3 missile, which entered service in 1998). The 3KS launcher, initially fitted without other modifications to a pair of RakJPz 2s to create the RakJPz 2 (HOT) (the prototype for Jaguar 1), allowed the new vehicle to field the SACLOS-guided HOT missile, a superior weapon in both performance and ease of guidance than the French MCLOS SS.11 missiles that armed the earlier RakJPz 1 & 2. These served alongside the TOW-equipped RakJPz 4 Jaguar 2 (converted from obsolete JPz 4-5s) throughout the 1980s as the ultimate West German counter to Soviet armour besides the state-of-the-art Leopard 2 MBT, and after German reunification in 1991, they continued to serve. While 1993 saw the retirement of the Jaguar 2, it also brought a new upgrade program for the Jaguar 1 that focused on addressing its poor night-fighting capabilities, primarily by adding a brand new thermal imaging device to the top of the vehicle, and introduced the 1992 HOT-2MP missile, which has far lower penetration but causes greater damage than the standard HOT-2 through the combination of incendiary and fragmentation effects. In 1998, the HOT-3 missile entered service, providing the RakJPz 3 with a tandem-warhead ATGM for the first time; that year, Austria imported several missiles of this type to serve on their own non-upgraded Jaguar 1s (now retired). Though it is now retired by the Bundeswehr, marking the end of a tank destroyer family dating back to the 1960s, the RakJPz 3 Jaguar 1A3 is still a highly-advanced and capable ATGM carrier, made obsolete not by technology but by changes in military doctrine that now favours more multipurpose IFVs over highly-specialised AT vehicles like the RakJPzs.

 

 

About The Add-On Armour:

 

No source I've found so far has stated the actual thickness of the applique plates installed on RakJPz 3 & 4, but through visual examination and comparison with similar armour on other German tanks, I have arrived at an estimate that makes sense to me. The figures I have arrived at should be easily verified by simply going to one of the museum examples and measuring the thickness in person, but I do not have the ability to do this myself. Without hard data, I looked into the most comparable applique armour I know of: the add-on armour used on the Leopard A1A1. Both Leopard A1A1 and Jaguar 1 have steel armour attached in an identical way, so as to provide an air gap which would defeat older shaped-charge projectiles, and just as Leopard A1A1 uses two distinct thicknesses for its armour, so Jaguar 1 seems to. Ignoring the unique 35mm mantlet applique, which is visually distinct from Jaguar 1's applique, Leopard A1A1 has 20mm thick applique armour on the turret cheeks, the armour on the mantlet sides, turret sides and rear is 10mm thick, and the side skirts over the tracks, which Jaguar 1 also has, are 5mm thick.

 

 

Because both Leopard A1A1 and Jaguar 1 share the same model of track guard, I was able to use it as a rough estimate of scale for the rest of the vehicle, and based on this and the fact that the bottom edge of the frontal applique plate is easily visible in most photos, I think that the frontal applique is, indeed, 20mm thick. The side applique, meanwhile, doesn't seem to extend as far from the original side armour as the frontal plate, and from rear views it seems significantly thinner (roughly half as thick), so once again I think it's likely to match up with the thinner segments of A1A1's applique at just 10mm. While I have no absolute evidence, it would make sense that a vehicle that reuses Leopard A1A1's side skirts would also use the same pre-developed types of applique armour, rather than a brand new design of some unique arbitrary thickness, especially since the two armour packages attach in exactly the same way and are visually very similar. Proceeding on this assumption, I will list the add-on armour thicknesses as 20mm and 10mm until I find a source that states otherwise. I'd really appreciate any help from people with better sources than the barebones online offerings I've found, and especially if someone can actually measure the armour in person, since I really dislike having to rely on estimates and would much prefer to be sure of the facts.

 

Specifications:

 

 

Length: 6.61m

Width: 3.12m

Height: 2.55m

Weight: 25.5 tons

Crew: 4 (Driver, Gunner, Commander, Machine-Gunner)

Primary Armament: Euromissile HOT-3KS ATGM launcher w/ rotary autoloader (8+12 missiles carried)

Secondary Armament: 1x 7.62mm MG3A1 in the hull, 1x 7.62mm MG3 in an AA mount (3200 rounds for each gun)

Armour: 50+20mm* front, 30+10mm* superstructure sides, 30mm hull sides & rear, 20mm frontal roof slope, 10mm main roof, 5mm engine deck & side skirts

Smoke: 8 smoke grenade launchers 

Night Vision: Thermal Imaging Device

Engine: MTU MB 837 Aa V8 (500 hp)

Top Speed: 43 mph (70 kph)

Max Climbable Incline: Unknown

Max. Fording Depth: 1.8m

Max. Clearable Obstacle Height: 0.8m

Max. Crossable Trench Width: 2.0m

 

Missile Specifications:

 

 

Type: HOT-1

Dimensions: 1270x136mm; 310mm wingspan

Total Weight: 23.5kg

Warhead: HEAT (5.00kg)

Penetration: 800mm

Guidance: SACLOS

Range: 75–4000m

Cruise Speed: 240 m/s

 

Type: HOT-2

Dimensions: 1300x150mm; 310mm wingspan

Total Weight: 23.5kg

Warhead: HEAT (5.00kg)

Penetration: 900mm

Guidance: SACLOS

Range: 75–4000m

Cruise Speed: 240 m/s

 

Type: HOT-2MP

Dimensions: 1300x150mm; 310mm wingspan

Total Weight: 23.5kg

Warhead: HEAT (5.00kg)

Penetration: 350mm

Guidance: SACLOS

Range: 75–4000m

Cruise Speed: 240 m/s

 

Type: HOT-3

Dimensions: 1300x150mm; 310mm wingspan

Total Weight: 24.5kg

Warhead: Tandem HEAT (6.48kg)

Penetration: 1250mm

Guidance: SACLOS

Range: 75–4300m

Cruise Speed: 240 m/s

 

Its Place In War Thunder:

 

As I stated in the introduction, I'm making this suggestion in response to suggestions already made for more powerful, more modern tanks than our current top tier. This is not a vehicle I'd be in favour of adding to the game as it is right now, but rather as an accompaniment to future MBTs if and when they come. The current situation at Rank VII with Leopard 2A5 and the inital M1 Abrams both sharing the 10.0 BR is already not all that balanced, so I'd expect an increase in the maximum BR (and a raising of those for vehicles like the 2A5) if anything much more powerful were added, at which point there would be a place for RakJPz 3 Jaguar 1A3. Even without more powerful tanks than we currently have, I think this vehicle could be fair and balanced if tanks like 2A5 went up to, say, 11.0 to allow for better spacing between Rank VIIs, since raising the BR ceiling would allow the Jaguar 1A3 to be high enough not to club Rank VI tanks in a downtier. In this scenario, I'd prefer it be added with just HOT-1 and HOT-2/HOT-2MP, since I don't think it needs the HOT-3 missile until/unless tanks stronger than Leo 2A5 are added, since 900mm should be enough to handle any current 10.0 tank. Either way, this is not a suggestion for the game as of right now, but rather for a few updates down the line, when it would have something to fight and its own space to exist in without crowding the 10.0 area even more than right now.

 

While this suggestion looks very much to the future of the game, I still hope you like this vehicle and as always I'd love to hear from you in the comments.

 

More Pictures:

 

Spoiler

 

A Jaguar 1A3 in a museum.

 

A Jaguar 1A3 displayed outside, with an armoured cover over the thermal sight.

 

Below: photos of a Jaguar 1A3 from various angles.

 

 

Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_1

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/jaguar1/jaguar1.html (Site in German; contains many useful reference images)

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/jaguar1_at/jaguar1.htm (Site in German)

http://www.panzerbaer.de/types/bw_kanjgpz_90-b.htm (See above)

https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=1128

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/jaguar1.htm

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/jaguar1.htm

http://weaponsystems.net/weaponsystem/CC02 - Jaguar.html

https://russellphillips.uk/afv-alphabet-j-jaguar/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HOT_(missile) (Also contains details on Jaguar 1 missile loadouts)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raketenjagdpanzer_2 (Source contains some details on/shared with Jaguar 1)

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/West_Germany/Raketenjagdpanzer-2.php (See above)

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Zombificus
Adding poll question

[leroyonly 4,311]

Open for discussion. 

[Stuhlfleisch 3,762]

This would be a great rank VII ATGM-carrier! +1

[Matt_82 1,096]

I think you're being overly cautious with your language.  Why not add it now?  What's so advanced about it that means it's too much for a Leclerc or other vehicles that should be above 10.0?  Or anything for that matter.

 

Presumably it has the same very limited horizontal arc of fire that the 9.3 version has just now and the pretty poor gun depression?  Missiles that can still be spotted and dodged by reversing away? Same slow reload.

 

Tbh, I see the 9.3 HOT as over tiered since it doesn't fit the meta.  Better missiles won't make this thing an MBT destroying machine.  Have the 9.3 version moved to 8.7 and this could easily sit at 9.3 or 9.7.  It certainly wouldn't be any more lethal than a Leo 2K.

[Zombificus 793]

1 hour ago, Matt_82 said:

I think you're being overly cautious with your language.  Why not add it now?  What's so advanced about it that means it's too much for a Leclerc or other vehicles that should be above 10.0?  Or anything for that matter.

 

Presumably it has the same very limited horizontal arc of fire that the 9.3 version has just now and the pretty poor gun depression?  Missiles that can still be spotted and dodged by reversing away? Same slow reload.

 

Tbh, I see the 9.3 HOT as over tiered since it doesn't fit the meta.  Better missiles won't make this thing an MBT destroying machine.  Have the 9.3 version moved to 8.7 and this could easily sit at 9.3 or 9.7.  It certainly wouldn't be any more lethal than a Leo 2K.

 

Mainly, I was expecting backlash over the 1250mm-pen tandem-HEAT missile it gets. Common opinion on the Reddit post about 1A3 was that the HOT-3 ATGM is scary powerful, so between that and the AP being much higher than the current best in WT, I didn’t think it would go down all that well if I presented it as something to be added right now.  

 

I’ve seen a few comments before on suggestions less extreme than HOT-3 that completely jumped right to ‘WTF! This is way too powerful’ because they saw the big scary statistic and didn’t read the rest of the suggestion that explained how it would be balanced. I wanted to avoid that by reassuring readers right at the start. 

 

I also have my own worries about its power vs, say 8.0-8.7 tanks. Presumably, if it can get through 1250mm of steel after hitting ERA, its post-pen depth should be pretty good compared to other HEAT rounds, especially against non-composite vehicles with relatively thin armour.

 

Of course, similar worries to mine might have been why Shturm-S was so high when it first got added, and we saw how well that worked (it didn’t). I agree that RakJPz 2 (HOT) seems too high, though — its 9.3 BR vs RakJPz 2’s 8.3 seems really arbitrary, given how small the upgrade is. It reminds me of how SPAAGs like M19 and M42 have huge gaps between them despite being functionally nearly identical in stats. 

 

I still wouldn't put Jaguar 1A3 at 9.3, but I must admit 11.0 is probably excessive in hindsight. Something around 10.0 seems more reasonable as a starting BR, just in case it does turn out too powerful for 8.X tanks, but I’m open to it going lower if it struggles with the meta even with HOT-2 & HOT-3. RakJPz 2 (HOT) should definitely go down a little bit regardless of 1A3’s BR, since it does lose RakJPz 2’s ROF in upgrading to HOT missiles and really isn’t all that ideal with the current top tier meta. 

[Matt_82 1,096]

The ATGM carrier BRs seem to be legacy BRs.  Could you really argue that the RaKJPz with its WASD controlled missiles and no turret is better than the BMP-2 or Bradley?  I think that since the hype around ATGMs has died down a bit it's maybe time to re-evaluate some.  God knows what they were thinking with the Shturm-S.  As far as I'm concerned, that thing is a full BR higher than it should be.

 

I think that realistically the current RakJPz 2 HOT's problem isn't penetration of the ATGMs.  At 800mm @ 9.3, they are already more than enough to take out any 8.X tank (and can meet most of them in a downtier) and you don't see it dominating the battlefield now.  You don't really see it all, tbh.  So increasing the ATGM pen won't actually make a difference to how things are just now, other than it would be able to take on more of the NATO tanks via the turret.  The extra armour is doing nothing so the only thing doing anything to meaningfully improve the vehicle would be the addition of the thermals.

 

ATGMs will still hit bushes/trees/fences that haven't rendered in for the player.  It'll still take a full 10 seconds to reload.  The horizontal firing arc will still be minuscule (I don't think people realise how small it is).  ATGMs will still be slow and easy to avoid in the open areas that they need to begin with.  None of that will change with the addition of better missiles.

 

At 10.0, this thing would be as rare as the Shturm-S, RakJPz HOT and most other ATGM carriers (IFVs aside).  At 9.3 or 9.7 it'd still be rare to be fair but at least you'd have a chance of a meaningful contribution in a down tier.  These ATGM only vehicles are hopelessly outclassed by the capabilities of the 10.0 tanks and I think putting the Jaguar 1A3 along side them would make it a pretty pointless introduction.  

[Zombificus 793]

14 hours ago, Matt_82 said:

The ATGM carrier BRs seem to be legacy BRs.  Could you really argue that the RaKJPz with its WASD controlled missiles and no turret is better than the BMP-2 or Bradley?  I think that since the hype around ATGMs has died down a bit it's maybe time to re-evaluate some.  God knows what they were thinking with the Shturm-S.  As far as I'm concerned, that thing is a full BR higher than it should be.

 

I think that realistically the current RakJPz 2 HOT's problem isn't penetration of the ATGMs.  At 800mm @ 9.3, they are already more than enough to take out any 8.X tank (and can meet most of them in a downtier) and you don't see it dominating the battlefield now.  You don't really see it all, tbh.  So increasing the ATGM pen won't actually make a difference to how things are just now, other than it would be able to take on more of the NATO tanks via the turret.  The extra armour is doing nothing so the only thing doing anything to meaningfully improve the vehicle would be the addition of the thermals.

 

ATGMs will still hit bushes/trees/fences that haven't rendered in for the player.  It'll still take a full 10 seconds to reload.  The horizontal firing arc will still be minuscule (I don't think people realise how small it is).  ATGMs will still be slow and easy to avoid in the open areas that they need to begin with.  None of that will change with the addition of better missiles.

 

At 10.0, this thing would be as rare as the Shturm-S, RakJPz HOT and most other ATGM carriers (IFVs aside).  At 9.3 or 9.7 it'd still be rare to be fair but at least you'd have a chance of a meaningful contribution in a down tier.  These ATGM only vehicles are hopelessly outclassed by the capabilities of the 10.0 tanks and I think putting the Jaguar 1A3 along side them would make it a pretty pointless introduction.  

 

You make some really good points!

 

I also agree on the ATGM carrier BRs feeling like legacies -- there was a real hysteria when they were added, but even more powerful missiles like Shturm-S gets haven't made them competitive at Tier VII. Also, both Starship and Sheridan still have to research their ATGMs at 8.3, whereas the new IFVs get them right out of the box (some of them with better missiles) and also have a main weapon they can fire during reloads, which both Shillelagh carriers obviously can't, as their gun and missile launcher are the same thing. I'm mindful of Starship's armour making it a problem for 6.7s if it were 7.7, but even dropping it one notch down to 8.0 would help it a lot, and forcing a paper-thin tank like Sheridan to grind its missiles with a high-drop derp gun, potentially against 9.3s, seems a little ridiculous now that the game's evolved past what it was when those tanks were added.

 

Something unturreted like RakJPz 2 (HOT) really has no business being 9.3 when all it gets over RakJPz 2 is more AP, which it already pays for with a worse reload. ATGM carrier BRs in general are really weird, especially when they first get added -- remember when Type 60 (ATM) was ~8.0? The ATGM lunchbox still struggles down at 7.0, but at least it's somewhat balanced there (I'd actually argue that putting it any lower would make it worse, since tanks down there are smaller and faster, whereas at 7.0 it fights a lot of big, slow heavies and can actually do quite well at dealing with those). I've added a "Below 10.0" option to the poll (it's a pretty complex poll as it is, so I decided not to add a bunch of extra BR options) and while it's obviously too late for you to vote that way, hopefully we can start seeing if most players would prefer it to be lower than I'd initially assumed they would. 

 

Thanks for the feedback! It's been nice debating this with you.

[Milocat 4,855]

Germany doesn't really need more AGTMs, but I wouldn't mind seeing some more Raketenjagdpanzers.  +1.

[Wolf_89 2,525]

Yes pls. I like the RakJPz 2/2 HOT. So i would like to see more like them.

[Alan_Tovarishch 860]

With HOT-3 it would be the most logical competitor to the russian Khrizantema. I support 10.7 for both in order to leave some spacing for the 9.3-9.7 tanks

Edited October 17, 2019 by Alan_Tovarishch

[Solarmod 1,204]

Sure. More missiles.

[dotEXCEL 5,969]

+1

[stefffff1871 2,448]

+1 but i actually want them to finally upgrade the Raketenjagdpanzer 2 (HOT) to the Jaguar1

[Rohrkrepiererer 1,393]

+1, would be nice to see

[Pischinger 4]

+1

[sargken 16]

They should down tier the RakJPz 2 (HOT) to 8.3, add this in under the RakJPz 2 at a br of 9.7. The Radkampfwagen 90 should have been placed under the TAM.

Edited April 24, 2020 by sargken

[Taeblamees 1,092]

Is the sight stabilised or still not?

[The_Wig_Splitter 258]

this and the Jaguar 2 TOW as 8.0 br atgm dispenser

also might be nice if all jagdpanzers can get scouting

[Jan_Gustl_WT 1,746]

+1 The russians get a vehicle with 1250 mm CE penetration atgm carrier, when gets germany its ATGM carrier with thermals and strong atgm.

[Wilhuff_Tarkin_ 467]

+1 I am surprised that its not in game already. German ATGM carriers are mistreated in this game.

Given what current meta has become it could be easily 8.3 BR just like Striker. 9.0 max.

Also BRs of those in game should go down. French and Brits get SS.11 at 6.7.

[Alan_Tovarishch 860]

I was the one who made the suggestion for the Khrizantema and i fully support this one. Should be good at 9.7-10.0. Is there more precise information about the capabilities of the thermal sight?

[Zombificus 793]

12 hours ago, Alan_Tovarishch said:

I was the one who made the suggestion for the Khrizantema and i fully support this one. Should be good at 9.7-10.0. Is there more precise information about the capabilities of the thermal sight?

 

Thanks for the support, Alan! Unfortunately, nothing online gives specifics on the thermal sight (I think books or archive sources will be the only place to find out more) so all I can say is that it's apparently a 2nd Gen thermal sight, which does line up with its service introduction date. 

[Wolf_89 2,525]

Hoping to see this and its brother Jaguar 2.

[Roope00@psn 160]

Yes please! Would be a very welcome addition, I'd personally love to see the Jaguar 1A3 in the German tech tree as a successor to the RakJPz 2's.

[TeodorSan 88]

+1

Really hope to see it added in the game. The thermal would make it even more fun and just like other people said, it would make it a good vehicle to compete against Khrizantema.