Air SB: Add EC-7 [9.7-10.3] BR bracket

[HOPPING_PONY 386]

Short description:

Divide the "EC-6" (8.0-10.3) BR bracket into two:

EC-6 (8.0-9.3) - Subsonic jet aircraft
EC-7 (9.7-10.3) - Supersonic jet aircraft
 

Explanation:

• Huge gap in max speed, acceleration and combat capabilities makes subsonic jets too easy targets for supersonic fighters. Supersonic jets can remain practically untouchable for subsonic fighters without a2a rockets, making the EC-6 braket unplayable to pilots on such planes.
• A lot of supersonic planes have already been added to the game in recent majors (and there's more coming), they are no longer a rarity in sessions, and can form the basis for a new EC level.

Edited May 15, 2020 by HOPPING_PONY

[ItssLuBu 1,798]

Approved and open for discussion. 

[edenstyle 237]

I think arguably EC7 should be 9.3-10.3 because the missile armed transonic afterburner jets are perfectly capable of dicing with the supersonics in my opinion, and they would club pretty hard against 8.0-9.0 jets. However, I'm not going to die on this cross - for the love of god give us EC7. 

[_Thrash_ 797]

On 01/12/2019 at 15:16, HOPPING_PONY said:

it's not competitive or fun for both sides.

But its a valid tactic (?!) its air superiority....

Heck no...but there are some planes sit in between.BR adjustment is necessary, While my Venom and Fury FJ-4 are both 9.0, there are significant differences between them. I can take out supersonic aircraft in FJ-4, not in Venom unless they make stupid mistakes. Some micro adjustment is imho necessary.

Edited December 11, 2019 by _Thrash_

[NebeI 183]

9.7 is way too high for starting BR. 9.0 is enough.

[gemanuel1 277]

If this gets implemented i will definitely start to play jets more often.

[Pony51 6,572]

3 hours ago, NebeI said:

9.7 is way too high for starting BR. 9.0 is enough.

 

10.3 is not the upper limit.  We will get 10.7, 11, etc.

 

This is good.

[Twisted 3,112]

I would argue that a new bracket is not needed at present, because the Maps are too small to make a substantial difference. 

 

Super Sonics can seldom go any great distance before they need to turn, if they make the fatal mistake of turning in a fight, or actually exiting the edge of the map, they slow down so much, everybody pounces on them. And if you simply just tag along for a bit, they have to land, and then you get to squish them like a drunk frog on a Lilly pad because the Base AAA is more likely to shoot the sentinels than the attacker.

 

For super Sonics to actually use their speed  and power, you need much bigger maps, at present, by the time it slows down and manages to land any number of jets can catch up, not to mention that because maps are small, aircraft can loiter about near enemy airfields and not have to worry about fuel, as it takes about 2-4 mins to traverse the map at about 900 Kph.

 

T5 and T6 is adequate and should higher tier aircraft be added, the Top Tier Aircraft will be operating in 6 and 7.

 

Now if some one decided he should be able to fly his P-40 in T-6  . . . . . .there is always some guy who imagines his prop is going to give him some advantage vs jets.

 

The battle field is the way its supposed to be at present, many many types and classes of aircraft in the same air space with many different missions. We also need helicopters in the same space.

 

Problem is  . .the Space is Tooo small.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Twisted

[ZenBird 21]

Great idea go for it. AND there also really needs to be an EC Rank 0 bracket for SIM newbies and bi-plane enthusiasts.  The difference between a Fury and an Me109E1 is as outrageous as that between a F100D and an He 162. I would suggest Reserve to 1.3 for that. 

[HOPPING_PONY 386]

3 hours ago, ZenBird said:

Great idea go for it. AND there also really needs to be an EC Rank 0 bracket for SIM newbies and bi-plane enthusiasts.  The difference between a Fury and an Me109E1 is as outrageous as that between a F100D and an He 162. I would suggest Reserve to 1.3 for that. 

IMO lower rank ECs should be like: EC-1 [1-1.7]; EC-2 [2-3]; EC-3 [3.3-4.7]; EC-4 [5-6]; EC-5 [6.3-7.7].

Would be nice to finally shake up this stagnant and not well balanced meta we had in EC for years.

[ZenBird 21]

Agree with you there. BR changes like that in EC would be good to shake things up a bit.

[nazradu2 3,021]

+1

[gemanuel1 277]

 

Story of last evening: I had a thrill with the MIG 15 bis on a server that just started. Until the Hunters (9.7) and the F4 Phantoms (10.3) started rolling in... I know that there will always be a powercreep, some of the kills i got was F84s and such and that is unfair but i dont really see what i can do against F4s with my MIG if they play it "Properly"...

 

Oh and btw, who says no to this and why?...

Edited December 14, 2019 by gemanuel1

[Twisted 3,112]

9 hours ago, gemanuel1 said:

 

Oh and btw, who says no to this and why?...

 

 I am one of the "No"s, for the following reasons:

• At present with multiple aircraft, there are multiple tactics required to engage a target, not just flat out at max speed and fire missiles.
• With only Top Tier aircraft of similar performance, it will become a boring high speed chase where maxed out aircraft and pilots win. 
• It is far more realistic to have many types of aircraft in the air, it is also much more interesting to engage various targets.
• The 10.3s are pretty much dead the moment they engage 9.0 and below in a prolonged dog fight. That is why you see them being used the way they are.
• It is dissimilarity in an environment and team work that brings a team together and should be the deciding factor in a game such as this. I feel that the major consideration in wanting a separate BR has at its core Individual survivability.
• I feel bigger maps is a better answer, the problem is not a spread in the BR, but that the top jets can attack bases at will, aaa is ineffective and there is no safe place to land, because a fast jet can easily cover 3-5 bases on the map.

 

Thus IMHO the problem with the Top Tier is not a BR bracket, but that the Top Jets can easily camp multiple airfields and prevent safe landings and takeoffs, and it ruins the entire game, because any clueless loser in a F4C will plaster the best right over the runway.

 

Will adding a additional bracket fix it?

 

No . .

 

What we need is bigger maps, and more effective AAA . . ..SAMS . . .then see how the game feels by fixing a glaringly huge problem that impacts basic game play.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Twisted

[gemanuel1 277]

Okey.

On 14/12/2019 at 07:30, Twisted said:

• At present with multiple aircraft, there are multiple tactics required to engage a target, not just flat out at max speed and fire missiles.
• With only Top Tier aircraft of similar performance, it will become a boring high speed chase where maxed out aircraft and pilots win. 
• It is far more realistic to have many types of aircraft in the air, it is also much more interesting to engage various targets.

So you think that everyone will only play F4s at high tier? No bombers, no migs, no sabres? Is this how it works in every other brackets, only P51 Hs vs K4s at 5.0-6.3?

Even if you split there will be plenty of aircrafts flying high tier as well. 

 

On 14/12/2019 at 07:30, Twisted said:

It is dissimilarity in an environment and team work that brings a team together and should be the deciding factor in a game such as this. I feel that the major consideration in wanting a separate BR has at its core Individual survivability.

Once again i dont really see your point here. How does it work on every other bracket then? All of these mentions above makes me think of when SIM was 6.7-9.0 (or whatever it was), has the brackets that were split became less present with multiple aircraft types? Has the teamwork become worse?

 

On 14/12/2019 at 07:30, Twisted said:

I feel bigger maps is a better answer, the problem is not a spread in the BR, but that the top jets can attack bases at will, aaa is ineffective and there is no safe place to land, because a fast jet can easily cover 3-5 bases on the map.

 

On 14/12/2019 at 07:30, Twisted said:

What we need is bigger maps, and more effective AAA . . ..SAMS . . .then see how the game feels by fixing a glaringly huge problem that impacts basic game play.

What if i tell you that you can have both? These points i completely support! I say yes to all of this.

 

On 14/12/2019 at 07:30, Twisted said:

Will adding a additional bracket fix it?

 

No . .

Well no but it would lower the powercreep. If i really want to fly my Me163, Mig, Sabre, F9F or any other 8.0 jet i will have to play them against F4s, F100s, Migs and hunters... They have radar, thrust, missiles etc etc.. I feel it being absurd and this is the point of a split. When it comes to AAA and bigger maps i support that too but damn i really cant see why or how you dont want a split.. There is a lot of problems and they need to be worked with, splitting this bracket though enables more balanced gameplay and if you really like to fight with you MIG 15 vs F4s then you very well can do so.

 

I for one dont feel a huge urge to play this bracket with my Germans or Italians (thats the countries where i have jets in) at the current state. I would love to fly my MIG or Sabre and actually fight Migs or Sabres though. 

[Twisted 3,112]

To be honest, how many games have you seen F4 or Mig-21s or even the T2 dominating the game?

 

The F4s are  used for bombing bases and may fire off a couple of missiles here and there, the Mig-21 zip aboout really nice . .then brrrt . . .RTB to reload.

 

Then Get plastered on the runway.

 

Its not the 10.3 that dominate the game . . .its the 9.0s

 

What makes the 9.0s and above a nuisance is the ability to attack bases with impunity, the moment a 10,3 slows down he gets tagged and then its a 40 min timeout.

 

Fix the base aaa increase the map size, throw choppers into the mix, and it will all start to work properly.

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Twisted

[Pony51 6,572]

13 hours ago, Twisted said:

Fix the base aaa increase the map size, throw choppers into the mix, and it will all start to work properly.

 

Patriots and S-75!  

 

Yes to choppers!

[ZdrytchX 1,261]

10.3 upper limit with the lower limit at 9.7 is a VERY BAD IDEA:

1. USA and UK are the only nations in a game with an aircraft sitting at 9.7
2. USA's F-100 is the only supersonic at 9.7 or below
3. USA's f-100 is still the best plane for the current meta in terms of dogfighting capability, air defence fighter and mass-target interception due to its low stall speed, good energy renetion (for a "super"), large ammo loadout and 4x aim-9Es which basically means americans get a free ticket to spam F-100s.
4. other nations will be stuck with a 30 minute if the upper BR limit is 10.3.
5. As with all narrow-EC brackets, the crew lock will be a major problem and you'll be plenty stuck flying subsonics. Even if a nation somehow had a 10.0 and a 10.3, the 10.0 will have a 10 minute lock still.
6. Upping the limit to 10.7 won't resolve this problem.
7. Most nations only have one aircraft above 9.7
8. Some nations will miss out: Italy (max 9.3?)
9. Everyone outside of UK and USA will have to grind the SP in a subsonic aircraft, such as the 9.0 MiG-17
10. Hunter FGA is a 9.7 premium and that alongside te F-100 are able to carry some of the heaviest ordinances in the game. Zombering will be pretty bad with this.
11. Splitting up the population even more. As dumb as it sounds, the bomber spam provides a means of seeding games for the proper sim players when you think about it. Bomber spammers in off-peak periods currently make up for around 40% of the population and during peak times such as post-hype update is around 90%.

Perhaps a better solution is to have an SP-less EC7 mode where the required vehicles are 9.0+ or we go with what yo additional reocmmendation is with setting all 9.7+ aircraft to 9.7 (T-2 is 10.0 btw)

Tbh the current system of required and SP-costing vehicles system and crew-lock costs isn't exactly ideal although the current system isn't actually that bad in the current wide range 8.0-10.3. Subsonics still have their subsonic duels, supersonics can have uninterrupted supersonic duels if they stay clear of the subsonics, and the only planes with a significant time penaltty (>5 min) are the significantly upgraded and supersonic jets which I like to call "supers" such as the CL13B/6 and the F-100. Such a simple rise in maximum BR from 10.0 to 10.3 resolved a lot of issues with BR 9.0 inaccessibility.

Edited December 17, 2019 by ZdrytchX

[HOPPING_PONY 386]

  

1 hour ago, ZdrytchX said:

1. USA and UK are the only nations in a game with an aircraft sitting at 9.7
2. USA's F-100 is the only supersonic at 9.7 or below

BRs can be tuned, it's not that hard for devs. Already happened when EC-6 was introduced.

My suggestion even includes the exact changes.

 

1 hour ago, ZdrytchX said:

other nations will be stuck with a 30 minute if the upper BR limit is 10.3.

You can always use any plane from lower brackets without SP cost. Timer lock can be reduced or disabled freely by devs.

 

1 hour ago, ZdrytchX said:

As with all narrow-EC brackets, the crew lock will be a major problem and you'll be plenty stuck flying subsonics. Even if a nation somehow had a 10.0 and a 10.3, the 10.0 will have a 10 minute lock still.

Upping the limit to 10.7 won't resolve this problem.

So, because of crew lock nobody likes we can't have bearable tech balance? Come on.

It's up to devs to reduce or disable timers, like they did for 8.3 for example.

 

1 hour ago, ZdrytchX said:

Most nations only have one aircraft above 9.7

Some nations will miss out: Italy (max 9.3?)

There will be more supersonic jets obviously.

How do you think RB battles are being matched at 9.7-10.3? You can simply create a match with nations which have 9.7+ tech, other can still fly at lower match-ups.

 

1 hour ago, ZdrytchX said:

Hunter FGA is a 9.7 premium and that alongside te F-100 are able to carry some of the heaviest ordinances in the game. Zombering will be pretty bad with this.

"Zombering" was already fixed with landing SL/RP multipliers and high repair costs. You can still do one-way flights, but it's not economically beneficial.

 

1 hour ago, ZdrytchX said:

Splitting up the population even more. As dumb as it sounds, the bomber spam provides a means of seeding games for the proper sim players when you think about it. Bomber spammers in off-peak periods currently make up for around 40% of the population and during peak times such as post-hype update is around 90%.

What if population is low because of broken tech balance? Remember the old EC-5, before EC-6 was added?

 

1 hour ago, ZdrytchX said:

Perhaps a better solution is to have an SP-less EC7 mode where the required vehicles are 9.0+

I'd prefer to remove timer lock from all EC levels and keep SP to prevent mindless spamming.

 

1 hour ago, ZdrytchX said:

the current system isn't actually that bad in the current wide range 8.0-10.3. Subsonics still have their subsonic duels, supersonics can have uninterrupted supersonic duels if they stay clear of the subsonics

Yeah, right! Lets also put biplanes into it, they also can have fun time without interfering with all other planes in setup!

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Twisted said:

To be honest, how many games have you seen F4 or Mig-21s or even the T2 dominating the game?

In fact, all of them. For fighter being untouchable in the air while being able to attack is "domination" itself.

Edited December 17, 2019 by HOPPING_PONY

[Twisted 3,112]

On 17/12/2019 at 07:00, HOPPING_PONY said:

 

In fact, all of them. For fighter being untouchable in the air while being able to attack is "domination" itself.

 

I will not discount your opinion, however my experience has been entirely different. Phantoms have been used primarily for bombing bases, the moment they engage in dogfights, they are toast.

 

The Mig -21 . . .will zip around, stay for a turn or two and then run as fast as they can. . .by the 3rd or 4th turn, they have about 5 guys on them

 

 

 

On the whole they don't tend to really mix it up in the furballs, they zip about, target of opportunity here and there, mostly base . .R**Ping . .

 

People who prefer to dogfight, will have the 10.3 in their line up, get bored of the stand off style and drop down to a 9.0 for some rip roaring fun.

 

Occasionally, you might see some one exceptionally patient take a stick to the zombers and rack up a great score.

 

Seeing a 10.3 in the kill feed has a psychological impact and creates fear but in reality, it has a pretty short life.

 

The Base sentinel upgrade is a good step, they are however as yet not effective at preventing an airfield attack, AAA is entirely useless, in the absence of a proper base defense, these aircraft will continue simply attack the runway at Mach 2 and disappear, a BR change will not have any effect.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Twisted

[HOPPING_PONY 386]

If you're agree with suggestion, please support it in "operation hotwire" poll: <link is dead>

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by HOPPING_PONY

[gemanuel1 277]

@CokeSpray and @lastGrayAngel is there any chance of this being implemented? There are 3 threads up already on the SIM-side of the forum and it seems that everyone is for it (except one or two..). I understand that SIM is a very small and narrow group of players out of all the player-base but this split would make so much sense when jet after jet is being added. Some 8.0, 8.3 or even 8.7 would be lovely to fly without having to face supersonics or jets with a lot of missiles. I understand that you dont want to divide the playerbase further by splitting the ranks and stuff but is the silence from your part a silent message that this won't be implemented?

 

Cheers and i hope you will consider it

[CokeSpray 7,274]

6 hours ago, gemanuel1 said:

@CokeSpray and @lastGrayAngel is there any chance of this being implemented? There are 3 threads up already on the SIM-side of the forum and it seems that everyone is for it (except one or two..). I understand that SIM is a very small and narrow group of players out of all the player-base but this split would make so much sense when jet after jet is being added. Some 8.0, 8.3 or even 8.7 would be lovely to fly without having to face supersonics or jets with a lot of missiles. I understand that you dont want to divide the playerbase further by splitting the ranks and stuff but is the silence from your part a silent message that this won't be implemented?

 

Cheers and i hope you will consider it

Sorry mate, I can't answer that type of question as I have no authority on such matters. I'm not part of the development team and don't decide on what gets implemented and what doesn't. 

 

Cheers.

[gemanuel1 277]

Alright, thank you for your reply nonetheless. 

[Functor 230]

This is good enough, I vouched my support before on Air SB forum.

 

Maybe you wish to address the current situation with the multiple 10.3's (Add Mig21F13 to the mention for example).

 

If the plan is to stockpile 10.3 with multiple planes (even the Brits can have 3 Phantoms alone, not to mention EEL) at the very least one needs to remove the timers. Or make a pure 10.3 mode. We had a few fights in Operation mode between FGRs and Migs today, was fun. And the incentive to grind to the top remains.