Independent Polish Aviation Tech Tree - 120 Aircraft! (93 indigenous) (Revised 10/10/2020: 26 aircraft)

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

                                                                                                                                                            

 

Poland

 

                                                                                                               

 

 

 

 

Introduction

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Hello and welcome to the official Polish Aviation Tech Tree suggestion!

 

*Before beginning, it would delight me if you read the following short FAQ / Q&A, to answer your thoughts and questions before you make an opinion, to help shape your thought on Poland as a nation in the game. 

 

 

Q1: Wouldn't Poland be underwhelming for an independent nation, like Czechoslovakia, Hungary and some others on their own?

 

• A1: Short answer: no, they have quite a number of indigenous designs! Although not as impressive as Yugoslavia.

Longer answer: I used to have the same typical view on Poland. A couple of months ago I was shown a draft on how it would look like. I wasn't interested at all, it looked barebones to me, but I got intrigued in all-things Polish later on and decided to look into it more. My interest in Poland spiked because of HOI 4, their aircraft designs in general, camo schemes and roundels. WTCP's team helped shape my opinion on it. Yes, I'm part of that team!:) We all worked on it, although personally to a much lesser extent, since I hadn't officially joined Poland's subteam until recently. Before joining, I had a good idea on what Polish planes could be added, the issue was I never had a mind broad enough to oversee how the tree would be designed. After a good amount of help from WTCP, my impression on Poland was set straight, and now I count over 60 indigenous designs, over 70 new (Polish-built and/or modified, in addition to some planes that we don't have yet and Gaijin could avoid copy-pasting them), maximum 10 copy paste!

 

Q2: How many planes are included in the tree?

 

• A2: 89 in total, 66 are indigenous, about 83 or so are new (including the indigenous designs) and 7-10 copy paste. The tree may also look small, but that's only because there's an extra fighter line. Don't be fooled!

 

Q3: I see you have the TS-16RD-A Grot included. Why? Isn't that only a simple mockup?

 

• A3: The fate of the aircraft is mysterious and not well-known. The project was canceled in 1964, then in 1967 they burned all the documents regarding it.  Yet, it seems that Wikipedia possibly can't be more inaccurate with its description, since there's a photo of it in flight, although it's not confirmed to be true. There's also data on its performance and the pictures available seem to show a fully-functioning prototype.

 

Q4: It seems that there are a couple of trainers on the list?

 

• A4: Those trainers had combat capabilities in real life. If an aircraft is armed, that's enough qualification, then they are balanced based on their characteristics. Take the PWS-33 for example; it's a trainer, but it had a machine gun and reasonable flight speed for low tier. We already have trainers in the game to begin with; the Mitsubishi T-2 is a prime example. 

 

Q5: The PZL P.130 Orlik is from 1983! Why is it in tier 3? Isn't it too advanced?

 

• A5: One minute research easily shows you that it's far from being modern! The plane used conventional bombs, rockets and guns, no missiles. It could load two miniguns. Avionics are also primitive. Essentially and importantly, it has the speed and weaponry of a tier 3 aircraft. Introduction date can be deceptive; the T-2 shouldn't be tier 7 and facing the F-14 Tomcat when/if it's added for example, just because it came in 1974, not to mention the Orlik wouldn't be better than the MiG-21s and F-4s simply because it was introduced much later on. In any case, the Orliks can be replaced with other aircraft if needed.

 

Q6: I believe I'm seeing more copy-paste than you're advertising. Is that true?

 

• A6: At first, it does look like it. However, keep in mind what I'm saying here and please pay attention if you have an issue with this. There are definitely MiGs and Sukhois at the end, but the MiG-21M for example is export only. Poland is the most extensive user of it, and it's different from every MiG-21 model in the game (radar and weaponry). The MiG-23MF is the export model of the MiG-23M, Germany could get the MiG-23ML and Russia could get the MiG-23MLA or MLD to avoid copy paste, they're a lot different. The Su-7BM is not the same as the Su-7B in the game, nor the Su-7BKL the Soviets are likely going to get. The Su-20 is an export-only model of the basic Su-17, it's even slightly worse than the basic Su-17. The MiG-29A in the hypothetical tier 7 line is also only export; it's quite different from the first production MiG-29 for the Soviets. The SBLim-2A is a Polish two-seater MiG-15 with two NR-23 cannons and recon equipment. Lim-6bis is a MiG-17F, but with an SRD-1 ranging radar, drag chute, four instead of two hardpoints and better performance (since it was lighter!). Lastly, the Lim-6M is a MiG-17PF, but with RP-1U search and tracking radar, 3 x 23mm and the other characteristics the Lim-6bis has. Essentially, with careful planning, they have the option to make Poland unique. 

It's also worth noting that Cywnar's Mustang Mk III would be unique. Not only do we not have the Mustang Mk III yet, but that specific Mustang was heavily modified to intercept V-1 rockets!

 

Q7: What are the indigenous top tier jets for Poland?

 

• A7: The supersonic PZL TS-16RD-A Grot with two 23mm and 4 x R-3S missiles. Lastly later models of the PZL I-22 Iryda / Orkan, even though subsonic, those later models had R-60 and R-60MK (R-60M designation for export) missiles! 

 

Q8: Why are there biplanes at tier 2?

 

• A8: Believe it or not, they have cannons and performance for tier 2! 

 

Q9: Shouldn't the PZL P.50 be tier 2 instead of tier 3?

 

• Q9: It should be understood that tiers are mostly for progression, not necessarily performance. Plus we have aircraft of similar performance at tier 3, like the D.520. It really depends on the nation's tree, how much it's filled and how its layout is designed. Moreover, raw stats on paper can be deceptive and not tell the full story, the aircraft's handling and feeling play a big part and we can only know those two when we're experiencing the planes firsthand when they're added.

 

That's all (for now)! Let's get around to talking about the planes

 

Photographs

 

In this section, I give a brief overview for every aircraft included. 

 

Państwowe Zakłady Lotnicze (PZL) 

 

Spoiler

 

1- PZL P.7a, P.7a / L

 

A mass-produced biplane, the P.7 was first conceived in 1932 and delivered to the Polish Air Force in 1933. It was armed with two low caliber Vickers E machine guns, and had a top speed of 320 km/h. On the late model (P.7a /L), they were switched to 7.92mm PWU FK wz.33 machine guns.

 

 

2- PZL P.8/I, P.8/II

 

An indirect follow-up to the P.7, the PZL P.8 was an improvement. It featured Vickers E machine guns and a higher top speed. The first prototype was powered by a Hispano-Suiza 12Mc producing 500 hp, while the second one (P.8/II) had a Lorraine-Petrol engine model that produced 640 hp. Notice the different constructional designs between the two; different landing gears and different engine installments (P.8/I on the left, P.8/II on the right).

 

 

3- PZL P.11a, Urbanowicz's P.11a, P.11c, P.11g Kobuz

 

The direct successor for the PZL P.7, this plane and its variants were major improvements. The first production aircraft, the P.11a, was powered by a Mercury IV-S2 engine, which set its top speed to 343 km/h. The second production model had a more powerful engine that pushed it to 360 km/h, and added two more machine guns. The 7.92mm PWU wz.33 machine guns in the nose had 500 rpg, while the other two in the wings had 300 rpg, four guns in total. The last model presented is the P.11g Kobuz, a variant specially created as a stopgap for the PZL P.50 until it was going to enter mass production. It had a more powerful engine which increased its top speed to 390 km/h and added two more guns, making it six in total: four in the wings (300 rpg) and two in the nose (500 rpg). 

 

A Polish pilot by the name of Witold Urbanowicz was the most successful pilot and ace in the P.11

 

P.11a (left), P.11c (middle), P.11g Kobuz (right)

 

 

4- PZL P.24/II, P.24/III, P.24A, P.24B, P.24C, P.24E, P.24F

 

The most successful Polish biplane; the P.24 became a majorly exported plane during the 30s, being exported to Romania as the P.24E (built under license too), Greece (P.24F, P.24G, P.24H), Bulgaria (P.24B) and Turkey (P.24A, P.24G). 

 

The first production model, the P.24A, had cannons, thus it's the farthest down in the tree. The P.24B had four machine guns instead of two cannons and two machine guns, while the P.24C retained the same armament and added small bombs. All three shared the same  Gnome-Rhône 14 engine, 760 hp. On the other hand, the P.24E was exported to Romania and license-built there. It had two Oerlikon 20mm cannons, in addition to not Polish machine guns, but American Browning MG40 guns of 7.62mm caliber. The P.24F exported to Greece retained the armament of the P.24A (2 x 20mm Oerlikon + 2 x 20mm PWU wz.33), but also incorporated a more powerful engine. The two prototypes (P.24/II and P.24/III) had two cannons and two machine guns.

 

The P.24E and P.24F are premium, the others are regular tree aircraft.

 

 

5- PZL P.23A, P.23B Karaś

 

The first production modern dive bomber (at the time) for Poland, with over 200 units produced from both variants and from September 2 to 16, 1939, they completed 164 sorties. 210 units of the P.23B were produced, while 40 for the first P.23A. Both were armed with a single PWU wz.33 machine gun with 600 rounds, and two turrets: one below the fuselage with a PWU wz.37 (388 rounds, 4 magazines) and one behind the cockpit (6779 rounds, 7 magazines). The difference between them is that the P.23B had a more powerful engine, compared to the P.23A's top speed of 304 km/h, it was 319 km/h for the P.23B. Lastly, the P.23B had retractable landing gears. The P.23A's prototype took to the skies for the first time in 1934, while the P.23B was designed in 1936. 

 

They could load up to 700 kg of bombs. Two loadouts were possible: 8 x 50 kg or 6 x 100 kg + 2 x 50 kg. 

 

 

6- PZL P.38/I, P.38/II Wilk

 

In 1934, a multipurpose twin-engine fighter was enivisioned. The project received the name "PZL.38", later "PZL P.38 Wilk (Wolf)". The first prototyped had two 326 hp engines each, and was armed with two 7.92mm PWU wz.33 machine guns in the front, and two wz.37 turrets in the back. It had a top speed of 400 km/h. In 1938, the second prototype was rolled out. The P.38/II had much better engines, which upgraded the maximum speed to 465 km/h in level flight, at 5,000 m. A frontal FK wz.38D 20mm cannon with 100 rounds was also installed. With the new engine came three propeller blades instead of just two.

From left to right: PZL P.38/I, PZL P.38.II, PZL P.38/II

 

 

7- PZL P.42, P.43 Chaika

 

Prototype dive bomber and recon aircraft, derived from the PZL P.23. Work on the aircraft was carried out in an extremely short time, and the first flight took place in 1936. In addition, several serious changes were made to the design of the aircraft: two-keel plumage was installed, the gondola was made retractable in the fuselage, the hood was slightly changed. Most importantly, the installment of a more powerful engine, producing 680 hp. Weaponry remained the same as on the PZL P.23. Later, the PZL P.43 was developed based on the P.42, but also mainly intended for export. It featured three blades and an improved top speed of 365 km/h.

 

 <--- P.43

 

8- PZL P.46/I, PZL P.46/II Sum

 

Directly developed from the PZL P.23, the P.46 Sum was designed to succeed it, incorporating many changes. In fact, it is solely based on the PZL P.42, which was a conversion from a single P.23, but with even more changes; they were both armed with four frontal 7.92mm machine guns instead of just one as on the P.23 and P.42. New engines were also installed; the first prototype had a 920 hp engine, while the second one had a 940 hp motor. This set out the top speed results: 425 km/h for the PZL P.46/, and 470 km/h for the P.46/II.

 

With the new aerodynamic changes, the P.46 proved to be a major success and improvement over the P.23. It was going to be readied for serial production: an order for 300 units was never finalized, since the Polish industry was not large enough to meet the requirement before the outbreak of the war. Three prototypes were made; two were finished, the last was incomplete. 

 

 

9- PZL P.37/I, P.37/II, P.37A, P.37Abis, P.37B-I, P-37B-II Łoś (from left to right)

 

The main Polish bomber of the 1930s; the first two prototypes had two 860 hp engines each. The first one had a single tail fin, the second one had a double tail fin and structural improvements. The P.37A received a minor engine upgrade and was based on the first prototype in addition to improved landing gears. The P.37Abis was the same, but with a double tail fin. The last and main production model, the P.37B, came in two packages: P.37B-I and P.37B-II, with the best engines of the series, reaching a top speed of 412 km/h (compared to 396 km/h for the P.37A and Abis). The main difference between them is the structure, they're sub-variants of the P.37B, like different production blocks. 

 

  

10- PZL P.130 Orlik, P.130TM, P.130TB, P.130TC II Turbo Orlik

 

First developed in 1983 as a combat aircraft / trainer, the PZL.130 / PZL P.130 Orlik was a lightweight two-seat aircraft capable of carrying conventional bombs and rockets, in addition to two gunpods with a 7.62mm minigun each. The first prototype was rolled out in 1983, powered by an M-14P piston engine. In the following year, work on a turboprop-powered model came to light. It was designated PZL.130T Turbo Orlik, and was rolled out for production. It became the standard model, of which a couple variants were derived from.

 

The regular PLZ.130 was mostly directed towards ground attack, while the P.130TM, TB and TC-2 were properly multirole, considering the avionics. The TC-II had a special avionics suite, different to the one of the TB and TM.

 

(First prototype, PZL.130, powered by a piston engine)                                                       (PZL.130TM)                                                                                    (PZL.130TB)                                                                               (PZL.130 TC II)

 

11- PZL P.50A / P.50/I Jastrząb

 

Prototype fighter utilizing the monoplane design, first flown in February 1939. Unfortunately, the war broke out before it could be mass produced. There were 7 examples in total; one finished, six incomplete. Armed with four PWU wz.36 machine guns of 7.92mm caliber.

 

 

12- PZL P.50B /  PZL P.50/II Jastrząb 

 

The second production model of the series with two additional cannons and a better engine. One prototype was finished without the installation of the powerplant. 

 

 

 

 

13- PZL P.53 Jastrząb II (premium)

 

The ultimate development of the P.50/53 series, however it wasn't completed. It was going to be powered by a 1,300 hp engine

 

 

 

14- PZL P.55/I (premium)

A fighter developed from the PZL P.26 sports plane with an estimated top speed of around 660 km/h, and a proposed armament of one 20mm cannon and up to eight machine guns.

 

 

15- PZL P.56A, PZL P.56B Kania (premium)

 

On the basis of the P.50, a new fighter emerged on the drawing board. This new fighter was designated PZL P.56 Kania (meaning "Buzzard"), as means to improve on the previous P.50 since it was deemed underpowered. Two versions were planned; the A and B models. The first one being powered by a Hispano-Suiza HS-12Y engine, the latter with the HS-12Z. Was going to be armed with one 20mm cannon and up to four machine guns. 

 

 

 

 

16- PZL P.48 Lampart (premium)

 

Developed as the successor of the Wilk due to the availability of new engines. The main version was the P.48A, was to be armed with two frontal 20mm cannons, two frontal machine guns and one defensive turret. The wing and the fuselage were finished, however due to the outbreak of WW2 the project was canceled. 

 

 

17- PZL P.49 Miś (premium)

 

The successor of the PZL P.37 with more range and higher ordnance.

 

 

18- PZL P.3 (premium)

 

Polish heavy bomber project, with a speed of 280 km/h, three machine guns and up to 3,000 kg of bombs. The plane was abandoned and Poland gave the aircraft's blueprints to France, which in turn developed the Potez 41. 

 

 

19- Szczęsny's PZL P.11g Kobuz (premium)

 

Henryk Szczęsny was a notable Polish fighter ace from WWII, having served Poland during the invasion of 1939. He flew the P.11g prototype and shot down two Heinkel He 111s. He continued his service for the UK after Poland's capitulation.

 

 

20- PZL P.37/III Łoś 

 

This was the last of the Łoś series, equipped with new G-R 14N engines and various other modifications were applied to it such as strengthening the airframe

 

 

21- PZL P.9 (Pétrel)

 

A further modified PZL P.8, the P.9 was meant to be the production variant with a Petrel piston engine. Despite not reaching production, one was built from an existing PZL P.8/II. 

 

 

22- PZL P.24J

 

The final P.24 model, armed with four cannons. Although constructed on it had begun, it wasn't completely finished, but as it is based on its predecessor model, it can be easily added.

 

 

 

Podlaska Wytwórnia Samolotów (PWS)

 

Spoiler

 

1- PWS-1, PWS-1bis

 

Early Polish biplane and fighter, the PWS-1 was first flown in 1927. It was armed with four machine guns, powered by a 450 hp piston engine and had a maximum level flight speed of 235 km/h. In 1928, the aircraft received minor modernization: some wooden parts of the plane were replaced with duralumin, and was designated PWS-1bis.

 

                                          (PWS-1)                                                                                                                (PWS-1bis)

2- PWS-10

 

In 1930, the follow-up for the PWS-1 / PWS-1bis appeared. The PWS-10 was powered by a slightly more powerful engine, which gave it a top speed of 240 km/h in level flight. Tests showed that the aircraft's characteristics were acceptable, but no more. However, since its competitor, the PZL P.1 required significant improvements, an order for 80 was made for the PWS-10. It stayed in service until 1933, when the PZL P.7 showed up.

 

 

3- PWS-16bis (premium)

 

An aircraft armed with one 7.7mm Vickers E machine gun and an awful top speed of 204 km/h, the PWS-16bis was rightfully a simple trainer for the Polish Air Force.

 

 

4- PWS-19

 

Low-tier dive / light / reconnaissance bomber, first flown in 1934. Top speed: 234 km/h. Armed with two 7.7mm machine guns, up to 250 kg of bombs.

 

 

5- PWS-33/I, PWS-33/II

 

In preparation for the PZL P.37 bombers and the PZL P.38 heavy fighters / ground attack aircraft, the Polish Ministry of Aviation issued a decree to design a special training vehicle suited to train pilots for those upcoming aircraft. It shaped up to be the PWS-33 in two prototypes, the first one was completed and flown in 1938. The second one began flight tests in the spring of 1939, and it differed in construction slightly. They were both armed with one 7.92mm PWU wz.33 machine gun, and optional 2 x 12.5 kg bombs. Each engine produced 130 hp. Top speed 315 km/h.

 

  

                                      (PWS-33/I)                                                                                                                     (PWS-33/II)

 

 

 

 

Doświadczalne Warsztaty Lotnicze
 

Spoiler

 

1- RWD-22 Argus (premium)

 

The RWD-22 was a prototype floatplane torpedo bomber developed by the Polish DWL company in 1939 as a replacement for the Lublin R-XIIIter, R-XIIIbis and R-XIIIG. A full scale wooden mockup was built and it finished all aerodynamic tests and trials. However, due to the outbreak of WW2, the project was scrapped. Its estimated to have had a maximum speed of nearly 300 km/h had it been built and was mainly going to carry torpedoes. 

 

 

2- RWD-25 Ryś (premium)

 

Another fighter prototype that didn't pass the mockup stage. It's estimated to have had at least 500 km/h of speed in level flight at altitude, and was going to be armed with four 20mm cannons.

 

 

 

 

Lubelska Wytwórnia Samolotów (LWS) 

 

Spoiler

 

1- LWS-3/I, LWS-3/II, LWS-3/III, LWS-3A Mewa

 

A serially produced light bomber / dive bomber and reconnaissance aircraft from 1938, the Mewa came in a couple of different configurations. All four models presented have the same engine, producing 730 hp, their top speeds are 360 km/h respectively. They were armed with two 7.92mm PWU wz.36B machine guns in the front, and one PWU wz.38 machine gun in a turret. The first prototype had the frontal machine guns actually attached to the landing gear, while the second one and onward had the machine guns in the nose. The second prototype was thinner and more streamlined than the first, while the third prototype and the production model were much more compact. 

 

                                      (LWS-3/I)                                                                                             (LWS-3/II)

 

2- PZL P.30B-I, P.30B-II, LWS-6, LWS-6A Żubr

 

The PZL-30BI prototype powered by the Pratt-Whitney "Wasp Junior TB" engines was flown in March 1936 and then submitted for testing at ITL . The low power of "Wasp Junior" engines with a large weight of the aircraft was the reason for its low performance. The retractable construction chassis by Ciołkosz turned out to be embarrassing and impractical. The prototype was rebuilt and with new PZL-Bristol engines "Pegasus VIII" was flown in early September 1936. It received the new designation PZL-30BII . On September 14, 1936, 16 aircraft were ordered at the Lublin Aircraft Factory , with delivery dates for June-November 1937 (and option for the next 30 copies), bearing the designation LWS-6 "Żubr"(according to [1] it was the only correct designation of the "Żubr" aircraft, the designation LWS-4 , which appeared in the aviation press in the early 1960s and then repeated in subsequent publications does not appear in archival materials). The factory hoped to extend production by obtaining an order for the construction of the LWS-5 water version on floats and the export version for Romania, interested in purchasing 24 bombers.

In this period in Poland he was considered the successor of Fokker F-VIIB / 3m and was to be the equipment of bomb squadrons in 1 PL. After the approval of the PZL-37 "Łoś" project , it began to be considered as a reserve aircraft, and soon as a school transition to the "Łoś" bomber. Equipped with LWS-6 214 and 215 V / 1 Bomber Squadrons of 1 PL Squadron.

On November 7, 1936, the PZL-30BII prototype crashed as a result of the wing breaking and the engine breaking out with part of the wing. The crew and the Romanian air force delegation on board were killed. Much advanced production of the LWS-6 series was discontinued. Under the direction of Jerzy Teisseyre rebuilt the plane, strengthening the lobes. The first copy of LWS-6 was made on December 7, 1937, it was flown at the end of 1937. According to [3] it had a double vertical tail, according to - in ITLExam No. 71.24, which had a single vertical tail, while the second copy submitted to ITL had a double vertical tail; later the LWS-6 with double tail served as an experimental copy. The LWS-6 curb weight (due to modifications) increased by 747 kg, and the bomb's load capacity dropped to 660 kg. In order to reduce the own weight, it was proposed to build a new metal panel welded from chromomolybdenum pipes. LWS-6A serial aircraft were built in 1938 (according to [3] - designated LWS-4A). The first serial aircraft had vertical tailings, as in the PZL-30BII, later new tailings with a larger surface and changed contour were built. The early examples were also mentioned. The delivery was completed in January 1939. The aircraft had many defects, which were removed until the outbreak of the war in 1939.

Armament - 5 movable machine guns Vickers wz. 7.92 mm F: 2 coupled on the turntable at the front, 2 coupled on the turret at the rear retractable halfway for the time of flight and 1 on the movable base from the bottom. Bomb load capacity - 1200 kg, but limited permissible total weight to 440-660 kg.

Equipment - W2L / B radio (Philips VO-18K, VZ 80 / 27B), PZTiR type PG radiogoniometer, Telefunken type 278N blind landing camera, PZO camera, equipment for night flights.

Drive - 2 engines
- in the PZL-30BI prototype star Pratt-Whitney "Wasp Junior" with 294/309 kW (400/420 HP) each,
- in the PZL-30BII prototype and in the LWS-6 version PZL WS "Pegaz 8 series C ”with a nominal power of 478-500 kW (650-680 HP) and a maximum of 509-530 kW (690-720 HP) (according to [1], while according to [7] with a nominal power of 493 kW (670 HP) and take-off power 515 kW (700 HP) each,
- in the export version LWS-6B, Bristol "Pegasus XIIB" engines with nominal power 604-633 kW (820-860 HP) and take-off 685-714 kW (930-970 HP) were anticipated .

Technical data PZL-30BI (according to [7]):
Span - 18.5 m, length - 15.4 m, height - 3.5 m, bearing surface - 49.0 m 2 .
Curb weight - 2891 kg, payload - 1669 kg, payload max - 2259 kg, total weight - 4560 kg, total weight - 5150 kg.
Max speed - 277 (according to [1] - 280) km / h, cruising speed - 230 km / h, minimum speed - 95 km / h, climb - 3.6 m / s, altitude - 4600 m, range - 1200 km .

Technical data PZL-30BII (according to [8]):
Span - 18.5 m, length - 15.4 m, height - 3.5 m, bearing surface - 49.0 m 2 .
Curb weight - 4004 kg, payload - 1146 kg, total weight - 5150 kg.
Max speed - 345 km / h, cruising speed - 280 km / h, climb - 7.2 (according to [1] - 10.0) m / s, ceiling - 6500 (according to [2] - 7400) m.

Technical data LWS-6:
Span - 18.5 m, length - 15.4 m, height - 4.0 m, bearing surface - 49.5 m 2 .
Curb weight - 4751-4788 kg, useful mass - 1349-1582 kg, total weight - 6100-6370 kg.
Max speed - 335 km / h, climb - 7.2 m / s, altitude - 6700 m, range - 935 km.

(source)

 

                                            (P.30B-I)                                                                                 (P.30B-II)                                                                                     (LWS-6)

3- PZL LWS-6A Żubr II

 

This is an LWS-6 with a revised airframe and design. It was a lot more durable than the regular Żubr, however it hadn't entered production.

 

 

 

Plage i Laśkiewicz

 

Spoiler

1- Lublin R-XX

 

Polish medium / torpedo bomber, first flown in 1933, ordered by the navy command as they were looking for a replacement of the older Polish Navy aircraft in service. Powered by two Bristol Pegasus IIL-2 engines, 635 hp each, top speed 250 km/h. Up to 1,000 kg of bombs or one 700 kg torpedo. Three to five defensive machine guns, depending on the configuration.

 

2- Lublin R-XIIID, R-XIIIE, R-XIIIF

 

The main reconnaissance and army cooperation aircraft of the Polish Air Force during the outbreak of WW2. The R-XIIID was armed with one machine gun in the back and a couple of bombs, while the R-XIIIE was a prototype based on the R-XIIID with a new engine. The R-XIIIF was the same but armed with two machine guns. Additionally, they all sported aerodynamic differences from each other due to the difference airframe designs.

 

                                  (R-XIIID)                                                                                                    (R-XIIIE)                                                                                                 (R-XIIIF)

 

3- Lublin R-XIIIbis, R-XIIIG

 

Adapted for naval use, the R-XIIIbis and R-XIIIG were armed with up to 160 kg of bombs and/or depth charges to combat enemy naval vessels. They were armed with two or three machine guns for self defense. The R-XIIIG received a new turret, steel screws and improved floats. 

 

                                          (R-XIIIbis)                                                                                                         (R-XIIIG)

 

PZL-Mielec (WSK-Mielec / WSK "PZL-Mielec")

 

Spoiler

 

 

1- PZL TS-11bis D, TS-11bis B, TS-11bis DF, TS-11R, TS-11 BR 200 Iskra

 

The Iskra is a slow subsonic jet fighter / trainer, built for the Polish Air Force, with the first prototype making its maiden flight in 1960. The TS-11bis D, DF and B models were two-seaters and had four pylons. The B model was a trainer, while the TS-11bis D was a dedicated shock / ground attack aircraft. The TS-11bis DF saw the introduction of more powerful engines (10.79 kN compared to the base 9.8 kN) and four rear cameras. 

 

The TS-11R (seen on the very right) is a recon model for the navy, equipped with an arrestor hook and radar, while the last one, the TS-11 BR 200 was a single-seat CAS model. 

 

 

2- PZL I-22 M-91, M-93M, M-93K, M-96 Iryda

 

The Iryda was a susbonic jet fighter / attack aircraft, with a top speed of 940 - 950 km/h (depending on the model). The basic model of the Iryda was the M-91, featuring K-5 engines and up to 1,800 - 2,000 kg of suspended weight. Meanwhile, the M-93M was a heavy modernization, which included R-60 and R-60M missiles, in addition to new avionics and Viper engines. Its brethren, the M-93K, was the recon variant of it. Lastly, the M-96 was the most modern Iryda. It was completed in 1996, when it received more advanced avionics, modified wing and tail surfaces, retained the M-93M's weaponry.

 

 

3- PZL I-22 M-97S, M-97MS Orkan

 

Further modernization of the Iryda, designated "Orkan" instead, with better avionics. The ultimate I-22. 

 

 

4- PZL SBLim-2A

 

The SBLim-2A is a Polish-built two-seater MiG-15, powered by a VK-1A turbojet, armed with 2 x 23mm NR-23 cannons (80 rpg) and equipped with recon cameras.

 

 

5- PZL Lim-6bis

 

When Poland acquired the license for the MiG-17, they decided to take it to the next level. The Lim-6bis is a MiG-17F, but not just any MiG-17F. It was modified with four hardpoints instead of the base two on the Russian model, then it was equipped with a drag chute and an SRD-1 ranging radar (as on the MiG-21F-13). Moreover, since the Polish version was lighter, the top speed was increased from 1,150 km/h to about 1,170 km/h. In trials, the Lim-6bis proved to be the best attack aircraft, beating the supersonic MiGs and Sukhois. 

 

 

6- PZL Lim-6M

 

Much like the Lim-6bis, the Lim-6M incorporated the drag chute, four hardpoints and better performance (although slightly worse due to being a bit heavier). However, since it was based on the MiG-17PF, it also had an RP-1U search and tracking radar. Lastly, instead of the gun setup of 1 x 37mm and 2 x 23mm, it had three 23mm NR-23 cannons. 

 

 

7- PZL TS-16RD-A Grot

 

Envisioned in 1958 as work on the TS-11 Iskra reached its peak and excitement, it was decided to adopt the RD-9B engines from the MiG-19 in order to produce a domestic supersonic jet fighter capable of going mach 1.3. The fighter was to be armed with two NR-23 cannons and four missiles. However, the project was scrapped in 1964, and in 1967 all documents regarding the aircraft were burned, so not much is known about the aircraft; either a fully functional mockup or prototype was left behind. There is flight data regardless, and the aircraft existed. 

 

 

 

 

 

Other

 

Spoiler

 

1- P-39 Airacobra

 

In 1947, the Polish Air Force received two P-39Qs for testing. Shortly after, it was decided to re-equip the air force with Yak-9Ps instead.

 

 

 

2- Yakovlev Yak-1B, Yak-3, Yak-9P

 

 

3- Lavochkin La-7

 

 

4- Lanovski's P-47M-1-RE (premium)

 

 

5- Avia B-33IF

 

Ilyushin IL-10, built under license in Czechoslovakia, but modified with extended range and fuel.

 

 

6- Cywnar's Mustang Mk III (premium)

 

Michal Cywnar was a notable pilot in exile, flying for the RAF. He was part of the 315th Polish Squadron, which flew Mustang Mk IIIs. Interestingly, those Mustang Mk IIIs were heavily modified to counter V-1 rockets, making them unique. 

 

 

7- Spitfire HF Mk IX

 

High altitude model of the Spitfire LF Mk IX. "LF" refers to "low flight", "HF" to "high flight". 

 

 

8- Petlyakov Pe-2FT

 

 

9- Tupolev Tu-2S

 

1943 model, powered by two engines, 1,430 hp each.

 

 

10- Ilyushin IL-28

 

 

11- Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21M

 

An older MiG-21MF, the top heat-seeker for the MiG-21M was the R-13M. It was the first MiG-21 to have a built-in 23mm cannon. 

The factory flight tests of the MiG-21M began in 1968 and in the same year, No. 30 built the first nine machines, and the next - Bulgaria, East Germany, Egypt, Poland, Syria, Romania, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia received 195 aircraft. Of these, Egypt accounted for the most - 61 fighters.

 

 

12- Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21bis (Izdeliye 75A)

 

In order to meet USSR export standards, the MiG-21bis' avionics suite was dumbed down. This became the "Izdeliye 75A" block, only for export, which was worse in comparison to the Russian model. 

 

1,300 km/h at sea level, 2,175 km/h at altitude, 204 m/s ROC (230 m/s on emergency mode) and a wide variety of weapons, including R-3S, R-13M, R-13M1, R-60 and R-60M missiles, up to six hardpoints. The R-3R SARH missile was omitted for export standards. Air-to-ground missiles such as the Kh-66 Groms were also included. Up to FAB-500 bombs, S-5K and S-24 rockets. 

 

 

13- Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23MF

 

Based on the MiG-23M, the MiG-23MF was created for export goals. It was first exported to Warsaw Pact countries, then to some Arab states. It differed from the Russian MiG-23M in worse avionics. In comparison to the MiG-23ML and MiG-23MLA, its wing G overload was worse (8G vs 8.5G), it had a weaker engine which meant lower acceleration and rate of climb, and unlike the MiG-23MLA and MiG-23MLD, it wasn't armed with the R-24T missile. However, it was still pretty quick, and the R-23T missiles it had are potent; slightly worse than AIM-9Js. 1,350 km/h at sea level, 2,500 km/h at altitude, 195 m/s rate of climb. Could load 2 x R-23T + 2 - 4 x R-60, or AGMs, or rockets (S-5K or S-8 or S-24) or bombs (up to FAB-500).

 

 

14- Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29A (9-12)

 

The MiG-29A (9-12) was the first production MiG-29 ever, intended for the Warsaw Pact and countries worldwide. It differed significantly from the first production model for the USSR. For more info

 

 

15- Sukhoi Su-7BM

 

In comparison to the Su-7B in-game, the Su-7BM had a more powerful engine and more fuel. In comparison to the Su-7BKL the USSR will likely get, it didn't have twin drag chutes, JATO and worse landing gears. First received in 1964, Poland retired their Su-7BMs in 1990. 

 

 

16- Sukhoi Su-20

 

The Su-20 was the most basic export model of the Su-17, based on the already basic Su-17M, slightly worse avionics. It was capable of carrying 4 x R-3S, R-13M or R-60 missiles (the later Su-17s and Su-22 could carry eight!). Provisions for up to four UPK-23-250 gunpods housing one 23mm GSh-23L each. Up to FAB-500s, S-5K, S-8 or S-24 rockets. 

 

 

17- M-346 Bielik

 

Subsonic Italian-built multirole jet, 12 in service with Poland currently. Five hardpoints AIM-9L or AIM-9M missiles. No gun, but a DEFA gunpod is possible. Capable of deploying AGM-65A Maverick AGMs, Mk.82, Mk.83 and Mk.84 bombs. Brimstone anti-ship missile. 

 

 

18- F-16C block 52

 

 

19- Yakovlev Yak-23

 

 

20- Anbo IV (premium)

 

Lightweight Lithuanian multipurpose aircraft from WW2, capable of fighting, light bombing and reconnaissance. Armed with two machine guns in the front and two in the back (turrets).  Powered by a Bristol Pegasus XXIII, 750 kW (1,010 hp)

 

 

21- Anbo VIII (premium)

 

Lithuanian-designed and built monoplane, suited for air superiority, light bombing and recon missions. Armed with four 7.7mm Browning machine guns in the front, one in the back as a turret, 411 kmh/h top speed and up to 1,000 kg of bombs. 

 

 

22- Zumbach's M.S.406C1 (premium)

 

Jan Zumbach was a famous Polish ace in exile during WWII. He flew many planes, such as the Spitfire Mk Vb, M.S.406, Hawk 75 and Hurricanes. He was one of the first pilots to encouter Fw 190s, and one of several shot down by Bf 109s over France (though he made it safely to the UK). 

 

 

23- VEF I-16 (premium)

 

The VEF I-16 is a Latvian fighter, conceived in 1938 and first flown in 1940. It was powered by a Walter Sagitta I-SR piston engine producing 454 hp. Armed with 2 x 20mm cannons and 2 x 7.92mm machine guns, it could fly up to 483 km/h at altitude.

 

Interestingly, the swastika was a symbol of identification for the air forces of the Baltic countries, not just for the Luftwaffe.

 

 

24- Sukhoi Su-22UM3K "Supertechnika"

 

Poland was and still is one of the main operators of the Su-17/20/22 series. Their examples are still in active service! After refurbishing programs in the 1980s and 90s, Polish crews gave the nickname "Supertechnika", meaning "super hardware" or "super technique". Thereafter, unique modifications (although unspecified what kind of mods) were applied to their aircraft to extend their service life and combat capabilities, making the Polish Su-22s one of a kind. The Su-22UM3K is one of the variants in Polish service which had such changes applied, in addition to being a two-seater.

 

Capable of firing R-60 AAMs, Kh-25 AGMs and various types of rockets such as the S-5K, S-8, S-24 and S-25. Could also load bombs that weigh up to 500 kg and gunpods with 23mm GSh-23-2 cannons.

 

 

25- UIł-2

 

Polish-built and modified IL-2M3 for training purposes, retained all weaponry.

 

 

26- Gabreski's F-86E-10-NA (premium)

 

Thanks to @RazNaRok

 

 

North American F-86E Sabre US Air Force, xxxx-746,

Lt. Col. Francis S. Gabreski., 25th FIS/51st FIW, October 1951;

 

Lt. Col. Francis S. Gabreski.

Scored 28 kills with 56th Fighter Group in WWII, POW
Downed 6.5 MiGs over Korea, CO of 4th FIW and 51st FIW

 

During the the Korean War, Lieutenant Colonel Gabreski served with the 4th Fighter Interceptor Wing and commanded the 51st Fighter Interceptor Wing. He is credited with shooting down 6.5 Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG 15 fighters netween 8 July 1951 and 13 April 1952, while flying North American Aviation F-86A and F-86E Sabres. (The “.5” represents credit shared with another pilot for one enemy airplane destroyed, 20 February 1952.) Gabreski flew 100 combat missions over Korea.

 

 

Kutyna's F-105D-6RE "Polish Glider"

 

Thanks to @AkIvonDemolka

 

Republic F-105D-6RE "Thunderchief" aircraft, a Vietnam War veteran. The one with serial number 59-1822, which can be seen in the Museum, is one of the most famous F-105s that took part in the Vietnam War. It belonged to the 335 Tactical Fighter Wing stationed at Takhli base in Thailand. Its pilot was an American of Polish descent, Major Donald Kutyna, later general of the USAF, who gave him the individual name of Polish Glider. This inscription was placed on the air inlet to the engine. Major Kutyna placed a sign on the fuselage under the pilot's cabin, which significantly spoke about his Polish roots. There was a white eagle with a crown on a red shield. There was an inscription Yankee Air Pole under the shield. In 2010, the Polish Aviation Museum in Krakow obtained a deposit from the National Museum of the American Air Force in Dayton, Ohio

 

 

 

Thanks for reading! Hope you like Poland. In my opinion they qualify for an independent nation; there are enough native designs and new planes to add.

 

Sources/References:

 

Spoiler

 

Broń wojska polskiego 1939-1945 by Andrzej Zasieczny 

Technika Wojskowa Historia

http://www.samolotypolskie.pl/

 

And various other sources from the team who helped. In addition to books on Soviet aircraft (such as the Su-20/22, MiGs etc) by Yefim Gordon. 

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by EpicBlitzkrieg87

[TerikG2014 1,389]

Open for Discussion 

[Solarmod 1,203]

+1, Poland deserves to be in game, though, I wouldn't mind if it waited just a bit longer. o7

[ThedepthPunisher 194]

First of all, congratulations for the work done in the realization of the subject! The tree offers many planes with a unique look, I love it! It’s a big yes for me! +1

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

30 minutes ago, ThedepthPunisher said:

First of all, congratulations for the work done in the realization of the subject! The tree offers many planes with a unique look, I love it! It’s a big yes for me! +1

 

Thanks! It sure does  

[Solarmod 1,203]

@EpicBlitzkrieg87 So what would you rather see first, this or Yugoslavian tree? Just curious o7

[Doglio 27]

Voted "Yes".

Honestly the fact You made 4 lines is kinda surprising to me. Personaly would probably remove some planes and made 3 decent looking lines (be decent I mean following strictly serial models, rarely prototypes and MAYBE something like TS-16RD-A, would add Grot anyway f*** me) but I don't mean Yours work is not decent. I am probably simply more critical.

Just like with Yugoslava tech tree I don't think 200-260 km/h planes would be good for even reserve but I might be wrong and look at Gaijin statistic wrong way. Unlike in Yugoslavia, I like that the only time-travel is basicly PZL-130, even if replaced with c/p or something it would not affect tree that much. Some aircraft choices are questionable, some could get removed, replaced, some are missing (that could be added based on rules we currently have within War Thunder trees) but in the end, it is Yours research and basic choices would not differ that much (less prototypes, more export variants mostly). It is only suggestion after all.

Have to point out for someone looking at premium, PZL P.24F should be Polish and in main tree (armed with 2x 20mm + 2x 7,9. Greek PZL P.24 is G, its the most iconic P.24 and is armed with 4x 7,9.

I commend You and everyone that helped You for all the work You did. I would never have enough patience to research niche prototypes of "minor" nation.

Good luck with further projects!

Edited June 11, 2020 by Doglio

[Borotovas 4,500]

I voted yes.

 

But I still think it would be better to have a minor NATO tech tree.

[Doglio 27]

9 minutes ago, Borotovas said:

But I still think it would be better to have a minor NATO tech tree.

If You check planes within tree You would actually spot only 2 NATO origin planes, F-16 and M-346 (and even that plane is just Yak-130), rest post-war plane have origin within Polish People Republic - Warsaw Pact. Poland in War Thunder reality would probably be Warsaw Pact, maybe super late game in ground forces they would be NATO, but all of this is pure speculation.

But anyway, Yours idea of NATO, Wasraw Pact tree is not that great imo, simply War Thunder starts form WW2 and where would these tree be? In many cases it would be like adding Israel and making them Axis-nation in matchmaking (oh dear I feel like I said something terrible...).

That way of thinking is easier to apply to Yours Arab League tech tree imo. Just not by historcial alliance criteria.

[Alaska_chan 22]

I think this is a terrible idea.

This would be even worse than Sweden.

First off, while air trees are always added first, Poland would need to be able to have an Army, Helicopter and Fleet tree later down the line, which as far as I'm aware would be impossible without excessive "Copy/ Paste". Tier I on the tree here is massive compared to Tiers III and IV which are barren despite those tiers usually being the meat of the trees. 

I also think that in an attempt to reduce "Copy/ Paste" vehicles the tree here suffers from way too many vehicles being just different variants of the same thing, not unlike Sweden.

Not counting Tier VII (because its dumb) and the Premiums, out of 75 vehicles, 30 of them (40%!!) are different variants of vehicles found elsewhere in the tree. Adding to that the 10 "Copy/ Paste" vehicles we can see that this tree would not only come with an unimpressive amount of original content, but a poorly thought out tree is also completely unnecessary for the game in its current state.

[Josephs_Piano 7,044]

40 minutes ago, Alaska_chan said:

I think this is a terrible idea.

This would be even worse than Sweden.

First off, while air trees are always added first, Poland would need to be able to have an Army, Helicopter and Fleet tree later down the line,...

 

There is no such "need" - that is pure artifice.

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

3 hours ago, Solarmod said:

@EpicBlitzkrieg87 So what would you rather see first, this or Yugoslavian tree? Just curious o7

 

Yugoslavia, it's more original  

 

53 minutes ago, Alaska_chan said:

First off, while air trees are always added first, Poland would need to be able to have an Army, Helicopter and Fleet tree later down the line, which as far as I'm aware would be impossible without excessive "Copy/ Paste".

 

I've checked with the others on tanks, I have to disagree with Poland having excessive copy-pasting in order to make the tree work. While it is true that tier 2-3 would be negatively staggering (though there are some Polish designs there), tier 4 to 7 would be absolutely impressive, especially from tier 5-7. The Poles spared no expense in designing tanks during the Cold War, their top tank at tier 7 would even be original. They would have many IFVs and modern tank. From tier 4 to tier 5 there are also modified foreign tanks, such as the T-34-85M2 modified to carry HEAT-FS, more ammunition, four crew members, night vision, faster turret rotation and newer engine filters. You can also expect their own radar SPAAs, and in fact their entire SPAA line from tier 1 to tier 7 would only be Polish designs. 

 

Other Polish-modified foreign tanks would be the T-55AM Merida, T-55A ZET-1 and the Leopard 2PL. 

 

As for the helicopter line, you can expect 6 exclusive Polish designs. The navy I'm not sure, I personally know two destroyers myself, but no one looked into it yet.

 

EDIT: I also disagree with the argument of having many variants of the same design. We have a crap ton of P-47s, P-51s, Spitfires etc. Without that being the case, no tree would have ever worked in the game.

 

13 minutes ago, Josephs_Piano said:

There is no such "need" - that is pure artifice.

 

^^ 

Edited June 11, 2020 by EpicBlitzkrieg87

[Alaska_chan 22]

22 minutes ago, Josephs_Piano said:

There is no such "need" - that is pure artifice.

Sure, I'm glad Gaijin would be very excited about adding a nation with nothing but an air tree.

 

14 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

I've checked with the others on tanks, I have to disagree with Poland having excessive copy-pasting in order to make the tree work.

Post-war Poland would have enough vehicles to make for an interesting tree however the bulk of low-mid tier vehicles would be lend lease and captured copy paste boring vehicles, with low-mid tier usually being the bulk of a tree.

 

16 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

I also disagree with the argument of having many variants of the same design. We have a crap ton of P-47s, P-51s, Spitfires etc. Without that being the case, no tree would have ever worked in the game.

This really isn't true.

The American tree, to use your example, has a ton of unique designs. If you removed all the foldered variants of planes in the American tree you would still have a tree than can stand up on its own just fine. The difference between the base P-51, the P-51D and the P-51H are all substantial enough to warrant it being a new vehicle in the tree. Another example being the P-47D compared to the P-47M unlike all the variants of the PZL I-22 seen here. Not many of them were built and thats including prototypes so I really doubt that the 4 variants seen here are all unique.

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

2 hours ago, Doglio said:

Honestly the fact You made 4 lines is kinda surprising to me.

 

When I finished the tree design for Yugoslavia, I was advised to create another line, so two fighter lines in total, so I applied that idea here. Thing is, with Yugoslavia that could have not worked imo. But with Poland, I think it's a good reason. 

 

If you look into other tech trees, take the USSR for example, there are multiple fighter lines. This is because if they were one line only, that would hinder progression, and IMO more importantly some planes wouldn't make sense in the same line. For example, Lavochkin jets combined with MiGs sounds a bit stupid. 

 

With Poland, this helps with progression, logical placing and choice. You would have the option of either going down the more NATO / western line, with Iskra and Iryda / Orkan jets, or the eastern one with MiGs, or the attacker line for Sukhois. It just makes more sense, gives you more space to think and is better for progression without being too quick or easy to grind  

 

2 hours ago, Doglio said:

Just like with Yugoslava tech tree I don't think 200-260 km/h planes would be good for even reserve but I might be wrong and look at Gaijin statistic wrong way.

 

Biplanes in the game usually only reach those speeds in a straight line at low altitude, it's no issue, until you get to a plane that's actually as slow as the Po-2, in that case that's why you see the PWS-16bis as a premium or event vehicle  if you don't like them there are other choices like the P.7, P.8 and P.11.

 

3 hours ago, Doglio said:

Unlike in Yugoslavia, I like that the only time-travel is basicly PZL-130, even if replaced with c/p or something it would not affect tree that much.

 

I still fail to see the problem here, especially since the same argument is brought up with nothing to defend it every time. From a gameplay perspective (which should be the only viewpoint you're using while suggesting a vehicle), the PZL.130 and all those UTVA planes would no absolutely no harm to the game. Introduction date can be very deceptive and irrelevant, NEVER use it. I will repeat it one last time since it's starting to get annoying to me, the game has never been and will never be based on historical matchmaking, AT ALL.

 

Really makes me wonder why nobody had an issue with the Mitsubishi T-2 when it was first introduced in terms of introduction date, considering it's a 70s plane that fought 50s jets only at that time, but as soon as the Lasta and Orlik planes were brought to light, suddenly a minority has an issue. And I do say minority, because the majority don't have a problem, in fact the reason why the PC-9M is in the Yugo tree is because it was a suggestion. 

 

3 hours ago, Doglio said:

Some aircraft choices are questionable, some could get removed, replaced, some are missing (that could be added based on rules we currently have within War Thunder trees)

 

Suggestions please?  

 

3 hours ago, Doglio said:

Have to point out for someone looking at premium, PZL P.24F should be Polish and in main tree (armed with 2x 20mm + 2x 7,9. Greek PZL P.24 is G, its the most iconic P.24 and is armed with 4x 7,9.

 

As far as I'm aware, the P.24G was never used by Poland. 

 

3 hours ago, Doglio said:

I commend You and everyone that helped You for all the work You did. I would never have enough patience to research niche prototypes of "minor" nation.

Good luck with further projects!

 

Thanks!!

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

17 hours ago, Alaska_chan said:

Post-war Poland would have enough vehicles to make for an interesting tree however the bulk of low-mid tier vehicles would be lend lease and captured copy paste boring vehicles, with low-mid tier usually being the bulk of a tree.

 

The bulk of the tree would actually be tier 4 - tier 7, and there are some ways to avoid outright copy pasting, such as adding the Staghound, Sexton, Centaur and Covenantor. 

 

The tree as a whole would be very successful imo. Overall, decent. Copy-pastes is a good argument but the large amount of Polish designs would make up for it. It would be like France at the moment, where there are copy pastes at tier 2 - 3, but before and further than that, only indigenous designs. 

 

17 hours ago, Alaska_chan said:

This really isn't true.

The American tree, to use your example, has a ton of unique designs. If you removed all the foldered variants of planes in the American tree you would still have a tree than can stand up on its own just fine. The difference between the base P-51, the P-51D and the P-51H are all substantial enough to warrant it being a new vehicle in the tree. Another example being the P-47D compared to the P-47M unlike all the variants of the PZL I-22 seen here. Not many of them were built and thats including prototypes so I really doubt that the 4 variants seen here are all unique.

 

This shows a lack of research or reading. The I-22 variants each differ significantly enough from the other. The I-22 M-93M for example had better engines in comparison to the I-22 M-91, and had access to R-60 and R-60M missiles. Avionics were also improved. 

 

I doubt that the US would be as unique as you say. If you pay attention, most of it is variants of already-existing planes that aren't many in number to begin with. The basis and core of the fighter lines are P-38s, P-47s, P-51s and Corsairs. 

 

I think you're also really underestimating how many base designs there are in the Polish tree, or overlooking them for whatever reason. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by EpicBlitzkrieg87

[AspandaIV 375]

+1 though i personally prefer if the Romanian P.24E is replaced with either the Lithuanian ANBO VIII light bomber, the Latvian VEF I 16 Light Fighter or the PZL TS-8 BI armed trainer since the P.24E is better in a Romanian Air or minor Axis TT

Also you add the Lim-5M & Lim-6 since the Lim-5M is the predecessor to the Lim-6's. If you are wondering on their differences the Lim-5M is a Lim-5 with 2 additional wing plyons and the Lim-6 uses Blown flaps instead the regular flaps that the previous Lim's/Mig's and Lim's/Mig's after used among a couple of other small changes

[Bend_Ova 110]

I’ll admit, you beat me to the punch. You’ve facilitated the pain of having to explain some of these planes to people, and I thank you for that. 
 

But, as it stands, my tree would fair better in a beginning introduction level of structure! I think you should’ve shown both the three line version and the four line version, I’m the one who suggested four lines afterall. 
 

Everyone, I present to you, the True Polish Air Tree. (Hand-Made too no less)
 

I know not all the planes that are listed in Kriegs post are in my Tree but it’s that way for two reasons; 1. Gameplay, and 2. Such planes could always be added later on by the devs! 

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by Not_from_Tokyo
Transfer of Mobile Picture to Computer Picture

[Z3r0_ 4,127]

I guess I could support this.  I guess for matchmaking purposes they'd be on the Allied side of Axis VS Allies matchups, and the Warsaw Pact for NATO/SEATO VS Warsaw Pact.

 

I'm also tempted to suggest adding a premium Hurricane or Spitfire from a Polish RAF unit, but that's gonna cause some confusion in sim battles so probably not.

 

On another note, I'd remove the La-7 (though I'm not sure what to replace it with - maybe move the Spitfire over to that branch and add a Yak-9U ahead of the Yak-9P).  The only air forces to operate the type were the Soviets themselves and the Czechs.  I'd also add the Yak-17 immediately before the Yak-23 to give them something more fitting of an entry-level jet fighter on that branch (though seeing as they had a grand total of 3 of them, plus 11 of the trainer variant, maybe it'd be better off as a premium).

Edited June 12, 2020 by Z3r0_

[DarthGergely 464]

3 hours ago, Not_from_Tokyo said:

I’ll admit, you beat me to the punch. You’ve facilitated the pain of having to explain some of these planes to people, and I thank you for that. 
 

But, as it stands, my tree would fair better in a beginning introduction level of structure! I think you should’ve shown both the three line version and the four line version, I’m the one who suggested four lines afterall. 
 

Everyone, I present to you, the True Polish Air Tree. (Hand-Made too no less)
 

I know not all the planes that are listed in Kriegs post are in my Tree but it’s that way for two reasons; 1. Gameplay, and 2. Such planes could always be added later on by the devs! 

 

uhh paper!!  

[Solarmod 1,203]

One thing I never understand is why people say countries can't be in game if they don't have a navy, almost nobody I know plays navy.

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

13 hours ago, AspandaIV said:

+1 though i personally prefer if the Romanian P.24E is replaced with either the Lithuanian ANBO VIII light bomber, the Latvian VEF I 16 Light Fighter or the PZL TS-8 BI armed trainer since the P.24E is better in a Romanian Air or minor Axis TT

 

I've added the Anbo VIII but imo both should be present, since the Romanian P.24E has its own engine. The VEF I-16 is a very good suggestion so I added it. What about the TS-8? I didn't know it was armed, do you have pictures?

 

8 hours ago, Not_from_Tokyo said:

I’ll admit, you beat me to the punch. You’ve facilitated the pain of having to explain some of these planes to people, and I thank you for that. 
 

But, as it stands, my tree would fair better in a beginning introduction level of structure! I think you should’ve shown both the three line version and the four line version, I’m the one who suggested four lines afterall. 
 

Everyone, I present to you, the True Polish Air Tree. (Hand-Made too no less)
 

I know not all the planes that are listed in Kriegs post are in my Tree but it’s that way for two reasons; 1. Gameplay, and 2. Such planes could always be added later on by the devs! 

 

 

Poland never had MiG-19s, let alone MiG-19Ps :P 

 

Some planes seem to be in the wrong line imo, like the PWS-19 and the Mewa's variants. Why are there Karas and Sum attackers in the bomber line too? 

 

The RWD-19 was never armed either 

 

5 hours ago, Z3r0_ said:

I'm also tempted to suggest adding a premium Hurricane or Spitfire from a Polish RAF unit, but that's gonna cause some confusion in sim battles so probably not.

 

I added Zumbach's M.S.406C1, I suppose since allied name tags appear within certain distance it will help avoid confusion to a certain extent. 

 

13 hours ago, AspandaIV said:

Also you add the Lim-5M & Lim-6 since the Lim-5M is the predecessor to the Lim-6's. If you are wondering on their differences the Lim-5M is a Lim-5 with 2 additional wing plyons and the Lim-6 uses Blown flaps instead the regular flaps that the previous Lim's/Mig's and Lim's/Mig's after used among a couple of other small changes

 

Since they're MiGs of course I know them  I thought about adding them, but I decided not to, since they don't differ enough from their Russian counterparts and with the Lim-6 models in the tree I think the Lim-5s are superfluous 

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

New planes added as premiums

 

  

[shimon_barkokhba 129]

i would like to see more nations but  with the current balancing problems and economy it would be a stupid idea 

[EpicBlitzkrieg87 8,349]

2 minutes ago, shimon_barkokhba said:

i would like to see more nations but  with the current balancing problems and economy it would be a stupid idea 

 

What's wrong?

[Z3r0_ 4,127]

18 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

I've added the Anbo VIII but imo both should be present, since the Romanian P.24E has its own engine. The VEF I-16 is a very good suggestion so I added it. What about the TS-8? I didn't know it was armed, do you have pictures?

 

 

Poland never had MiG-19s, let alone MiG-19Ps :P 

 

Some planes seem to be in the wrong line imo, like the PWS-19 and the Mewa's variants. Why are there Karas and Sum attackers in the bomber line too? 

 

The RWD-19 was never armed either 

 

 

I added Zumbach's M.S.406C1, I suppose since allied name tags appear within certain distance it will help avoid confusion to a certain extent. 

 

 

Since they're MiGs of course I know them  I thought about adding them, but I decided not to, since they don't differ enough from their Russian counterparts and with the Lim-6 models in the tree I think the Lim-5s are superfluous 

 

Did you see my suggestion regarding the La-7?  They never had any, though they did have a single La-5 (which variant, I don't know, but it was probably an La-5FN or an La-5UTI trainer), which I think makes a good option for a premium plane.

 

  

6 minutes ago, EpicBlitzkrieg87 said:

 

What's wrong?

 

I think he might be talking about how as you add more vehicles to the game, the harder it is to balance everything around each other.  You're always going to get stuff that's overperforming or underperforming for its BR, and Gaijin STILL refuses to share exactly what these "average player performance" stats they're using are (I imagine it's more than just win rate and K/D) so we can't give them any meaningful feedback on it.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Z3r0_