Swedish Planes greatly OP

[Caralampio 90]

My own $0.02 about the topic...

First I must say that one plane being better than another is only a matter of degree, not of absolute superiority. Any plane well used (except for the P108A "Joke") can perform, and "superior" planes can be shot down. That said.

Ever since I started playing along with my son, about a year ago, we noticed SOMETHING off about swedes. I am talking about J6, J11 and J8. Other players complained as well. Now, IIRC (correct me if wrong, citing from the top of my head) the J6 is a simple biplane, the J8 is a Gladiator, and the J11 is a CR42. So why did they perform better? I believe it was the 8mm guns, superior to the 7.9 and 7.7 of other people. They hit better, hit farther, and hit harder. Even the aiming circle appears farther for Swede planes. The plane itself maybe is just another plane. This is especially painful when compared to some really lousy guns like Italian or Japanese that have the contrary attributes (very poor aim, poor damage, sometimes they don't even hit even if aiming dead center probably because of spread).

Then you meet the J20 and J22 which maybe the planes aren't that special, but they are good and coupled with 8mm or 13 mm guns they are superior.

The main problem that lifts the scab for many people are the J21 and A21. These are quite OP in general. When I fly them I feel a bit guilty. It feels sooooo delicious to have those guns that hit where you aim, destroy where you aim and hit farther, along with a plane that performs very well. Same as the OP, I find that about half of the time that I am shot down, it's a J21 or A21. But most of the time it is surprise attacks, so their main advantage I think is that with their great weapons they can snipe you. When a J21/A21 gets caught in a dogfight it becomes less dangerous. However, it is also surprising that they are quite maneuverable. I was astounded once to be out maneuvered in a Zero by a J21. Also, it is a very bad idea to get in a head-on with one of these. 

Then let's discuss the bombers, the B18 and T18. These are quite unbelievable. Incredibly fast, most bombers struggle to get 300 kph, the Swedes spawn already at about 350 and reach 500 very easily in straight flight. The other disbelief is that they are better fighters than a lot of fighters of other countries. Again, the 13 mm guns help, but also the speed, maneuverability and toughness. The only problem is puny bomb loads. 

I have currently all nationalities at 4.0-4.7, most planes spaded, so i think I'm entitled to compare and my vote is YES, Swedish airplanes are OP. 

 

[AngelWarT 1]

I think that the problem with swedish planes is that they are good in everything, not the best turnfighters, not the best BnZ, not the best energy fighters... But good in all aspects. That why they seem they are OP, because to win over them you have to use your plane strengths to 110%

[Lexing_ 241]

14 hours ago, Caralampio said:

My own $0.02 about the topic...

First I must say that one plane being better than another is only a matter of degree, not of absolute superiority. Any plane well used (except for the P108A "Joke") can perform, and "superior" planes can be shot down. That said.

Ever since I started playing along with my son, about a year ago, we noticed SOMETHING off about swedes. I am talking about J6, J11 and J8. Other players complained as well. Now, IIRC (correct me if wrong, citing from the top of my head) the J6 is a simple biplane, the J8 is a Gladiator, and the J11 is a CR42. So why did they perform better? I believe it was the 8mm guns, superior to the 7.9 and 7.7 of other people. They hit better, hit farther, and hit harder. Even the aiming circle appears farther for Swede planes. The plane itself maybe is just another plane. This is especially painful when compared to some really lousy guns like Italian or Japanese that have the contrary attributes (very poor aim, poor damage, sometimes they don't even hit even if aiming dead center probably because of spread).

The 8mm machine guns are definitely some of the stronger reserve tier machine guns. That being said they are nowhere near the level of Russian 7.92s. The planes of the sweden low tier are average at best compared to much stronger reserve tiers such as the Ki-10 and CW-21.

14 hours ago, Caralampio said:

The main problem that lifts the scab for many people are the J21 and A21. These are quite OP in general. When I fly them I feel a bit guilty. It feels sooooo delicious to have those guns that hit where you aim, destroy where you aim and hit farther, along with a plane that performs very well. Same as the OP, I find that about half of the time that I am shot down, it's a J21 or A21. But most of the time it is surprise attacks, so their main advantage I think is that with their great weapons they can snipe you. When a J21/A21 gets caught in a dogfight it becomes less dangerous. However, it is also surprising that they are quite maneuverable. I was astounded once to be out maneuvered in a Zero by a J21. Also, it is a very bad idea to get in a head-on with one of these. 

I've already covered this. The J21s are ok in everything but definitely nothing worth writing home about. It's slow so engagements are constantly being forced on you, it retains energy poorly in climbs, its climb rate is average at best, and it loves to lose energy in turns. It only is really great when you get slow, but the problem is when you get that slow you lose most control on your pitch axis. It can do nothing against half of its competition and struggles to do much against the remaining half. The second you dodge the headon, the J21 is dead. He can't run because his dive speed is very low, he can't climb away, he can't really turnfight without risking you energy trapping him. 

[AngelWarT 1]

5 minutes ago, Lexing_ said:

much stronger reserve tiers [...] CW-21

Isn't the CW-21 2.0 BR? Or do you mean reserve tiers as any tier I plane?

7 minutes ago, Lexing_ said:

energy trapping

What does this mean?

[FailBoatCaptain 439]

it probably means CV21s clubbing reserves like the slkilled players they are

[SOL_1 1,013]

On 11/05/2021 at 20:26, AngelWarT said:

What does energy trapping mean?

 

Some planes can engage their peers, even if these are stronger performers than them. They do this by going in with more energy, and they use it to either burn it all for a few sharp turns, or by speeding away after their attack. These are typically the boom and zoom planes like the FW 190. If you energy trap these planes, it means that you are enticing them to use their energy to go aggressive against you, but you use defensive maneuvers to evade their attack and prolong the fight until they have spent all their energy and are on par with you. Now they have used up their advantage, and they are in a position where they cannot continue the attack and cannot escape you either, so they are "energy" trapped.

In the context of the post that you quoted, he is saying that the J21 only has a small window where it can beat other planes in a turnfight, and if it does not shoot them down in that time, it is too slow and cumbersome to follow the enemy plane and also to defend against it.

 

From personal experience, I really dislike the swedish planes, I do not like fighting against them. I call em 190s that can turnfight, because they are always positioning themselves as high as possible, and their headon-attack is the only thing that they are good at. And they are really good at it, it's always dicey to evade them because their guns are well placed, hurt like hell and have little trouble following you. If you evade them, they will usually bog you down with their turnfighting and these things are hard turners, so you need to be really careful and match all of their fast maneuvers equally quick. They will throw their planes around like maniacs because that's their last chance to beat you, and one hit is all they need.

Sure, after that they don't have much fight left in them and you beat them.... but this just ain't fun at all. The fight revolves around them getting lucky with their headon or dying, and that's just an uninteresting playstyle that shoulders out your skill as much as possible and puts all it's cards on this single "trick". I'd love to just ignore them and fight fun planes, but these things are just way too damn oppressive, so you always need to prepare your engagement with them and get enough distance from enemy planes so nobody else can jump you during the turnfight. I know how to deal with them, and even I don't like them, I can't imagine how frustrated less experienced players have to be when they have to deal with these stupid planes.

[AngelWarT 1]

8 hours ago, bruh__moment said:

 

Some planes can engage their peers, even if these are stronger performers than them. They do this by going in with more energy, and they use it to either burn it all for a few sharp turns, or by speeding away after their attack. These are typically the boom and zoom planes like the FW 190. If you energy trap these planes, it means that you are enticing them to use their energy to go aggressive against you, but you use defensive maneuvers to evade their attack and prolong the fight until they have spent all their energy and are on par with you. Now they have used up their advantage, and they are in a position where they cannot continue the attack and cannot escape you either, so they are "energy" trapped.

In the context of the post that you quoted, he is saying that the J21 only has a small window where it can beat other planes in a turnfight, and if it does not shoot them down in that time, it is too slow and cumbersome to follow the enemy plane and also to defend against it.

 

From personal experience, I really dislike the swedish planes, I do not like fighting against them. I call em 190s that can turnfight, because they are always positioning themselves as high as possible, and their headon-attack is the only thing that they are good at. And they are really good at it, it's always dicey to evade them because their guns are well placed, hurt like hell and have little trouble following you. If you evade them, they will usually bog you down with their turnfighting and these things are hard turners, so you need to be really careful and match all of their fast maneuvers equally quick. They will throw their planes around like maniacs because that's their last chance to beat you, and one hit is all they need.

Sure, after that they don't have much fight left in them and you beat them.... but this just ain't fun at all. The fight revolves around them getting lucky with their headon or dying, and that's just an uninteresting playstyle that shoulders out your skill as much as possible and puts all it's cards on this single "trick". I'd love to just ignore them and fight fun planes, but these things are just way too damn oppressive, so you always need to prepare your engagement with them and get enough distance from enemy planes so nobody else can jump you during the turnfight. I know how to deal with them, and even I don't like them, I can't imagine how frustrated less experienced players have to be when they have to deal with these stupid planes.

Thank you for the explanation

[Omarb13legends 11]

On 25/12/2020 at 19:38, _F_R_1_T_Z_ said:

This alone does not justify a BR raise.

That said, Swedish guns are stupidly op for their caliber. What they need is a gun nerf, followed by a BR decrease because their flight models aren't good enough at 4.0. If you keep dying to Swedes, try not going head-on with one. That's the one thing they're good at.

 

And tell me, why would you nerf a higher caliber mg that is supposed to be better than the 12.7 caliber. Your basically asking to put them at the same performance as .50cals. Gajin actually buffed the germans 13mm mgs, because evidently they were weaker then a small caliber machine gun. Nerfing it is not the way to go.

[f_ritz 24]

On 13/10/2021 at 12:14, Omarb13legends said:

And tell me, why would you nerf a higher caliber mg that is supposed to be better than the 12.7 caliber. Your basically asking to put them at the same performance as .50cals. Gajin actually buffed the germans 13mm mgs, because evidently they were weaker then a small caliber machine gun. Nerfing it is not the way to go.

1. They buffed the German 13s? Huh. Never noticed.

2. "You're", not "your".

3. Just because a machine gun is "supposed to be better than the 12.7 caliber" does not mean they don't need a nerf. Currently Swedish 13.2s have the furthest range of any machine guns and cannons and do more damage than the 37mm cannon on the ITP. Of course they need a nerf.

 

On 13/10/2021 at 12:14, Omarb13legends said:

Your basically asking to put them at the same performance as .50cals.

I didn't say that, but you know what? That's not a terrible idea.

[Omarb13legends 11]

On 02/11/2021 at 14:51, _F_R_1_T_Z_ said:

1. They buffed the German 13s? Huh. Never noticed.

2. "You're", not "your".

3. Just because a machine gun is "supposed to be better than the 12.7 caliber" does not mean they don't need a nerf. Currently Swedish 13.2s have the furthest range of any machine guns and cannons and do more damage than the 37mm cannon on the ITP. Of course they need a nerf.

 

I didn't say that, but you know what? That's not a terrible idea.

Okay and why do they need to be on par with .50cals? That is the equivalent of saying nerf a German 20mm because it has mine shells to the hispaniose performance. If you nerf the 13s to be like .50cals what the hell is the point of the HEF-T rounds? Ever think about that? Did you not even do research on why they were superior to the 12.7? Redudant complaints like these is what got the J22-B pushed to 4.0 because of it's 4hmgs when that's all it has to offer and nothing else in performance aspects. abysmal acceleration, turn, climb everything. It's not only because people go head on and then want to whine most of you are to lazy to actually take the time to go for another approach then head on. And if your attempting to "nerf" the Swedish 13s then the 12.7s need to be dialed back as well. SO the 13s generally have the damage of the 12.7s and the 12.7s take a longer time to kill. It's not like the sweds 13s are German 13s where they instantly explode upon impact, as to where they has an he charge that detonated inside the plane dispersing fragments that proved to be more effective then just an ap-i round putting a whole through a frame. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Omarb13legends

[f_ritz 24]

On 09/11/2021 at 22:09, Omarb13legends said:

Okay and why do they need to be on par with .50cals? That is the equivalent of saying nerf a German 20mm because it has mine shells to the hispaniose performance. If you nerf the 13s to be like .50cals what the hell is the point of the HEF-T rounds? Ever think about that? Did you not even do research on why they were superior to the 12.7? Redudant complaints like these is what got the J22-B pushed to 4.0 because of it's 4hmgs when that's all it has to offer and nothing else in performance aspects. abysmal acceleration, turn, climb everything. It's not only because people go head on and then want to whine most of you are to lazy to actually take the time to go for another approach then head on. And if your attempting to "nerf" the Swedish 13s then the 12.7s need to be dialed back as well. SO the 13s generally have the damage of the 12.7s and the 12.7s take a longer time to kill. It's not like the sweds 13s are German 13s where they instantly explode upon impact, as to where they has an he charge that detonated inside the plane dispersing fragments that proved to be more effective then just an ap-i round putting a whole through a frame. 

1. The Hispano/German 20mm argument is a strawman argument. Both cannons perform adequately (in their own separate ways) and have nothing to do with Swedish guns.

2. Their BRs have been nerfed into the ground because all the playerbase does is head-on, and Swedish guns excel in that regard. What Gaijin should've done is nerf the guns and put the planes back at their original BRs. How much should they be nerfed? Let's start with reducing their range, because currently I still need to dodge a J21's bullets when I'm over 2.5 km away from them. No other gun in the game is still lethal at that range.

3. Again, I didn't say they needed to be on par with .50 cals. You're putting your own words in my mouth. I just said that your mock suggestion isn't a terrible idea. Not brilliant, but not terrible either. Again, another strawman argument.

4. The 12.7s are just fine, except for the Italian ones which feel like wet pasta launchers.

[Omarb13legends 11]

Sorry I got a little aggressive there, anyways. Instead of reducing the range, they could give it's historical timed fuse. though I feel doing that might cause more bad then good since it was only around 600meters before it exploded I think.. Also there are only 900m/s. While American .50cals API-T flamethrower belts at 899m/s (*Cough F-82) are still just as devastating and good at sniping.  I mean F2G players do this on a daily basis firing from those extreme ranges. Against bombers and fighters sitting back and firing. Also those "pasta launchers" got there HEF ammo and japan got there HEi ammo. so there is that. And .50cals act really damaging at times. and I'm sure if you played Iil-2 stalingrad. The way the .50cals preform in that game,is how one  would think they preform and not cutting off wings with the slightest of bursts lol... oh and the tail control snipes the .50cals are "Famous" for in War thunder lmao, give me a break, even the swedish 13s don't pull that off in module damage.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Omarb13legends