Independent Heavy Tank Branch

[lLiberté 345]

On 15/11/2021 at 14:02, Ghostmaxi said:

That would help really much with the player experience of Tiger I players, cince you come from 4.0 Pz IV H directly to Tiger I H1.

  Exactly, that jump is not helping at all.

 

On 15/11/2021 at 15:18, N4CR_ said:

Damn awesome thread and suggestion. I too agree, apart from Nb.Fz there isn't really anything 'heavy' for new players to learn on if they are a German main, plus this also opens up some damn cool new tanks and playstyles for Rank 2-3 Germany. I'm all for it. All the other main 'sides' have heavy tanks before Rank IV. Even the French!

  Well, you gotta start with something Nb.Fz was my first choice just because i could not find anything for that spot. Hell even Großtraktor is just a heavier medium but as i said you gotta start with something.  And thank you sir 

 

16 hours ago, _PabloSniper_ said:

Since Gaijin completely took the focus off mid-tier tanks, I've lost interest in the game. I made a lot of great suggestions, but so far little or nothing has changed. If they launch VK 3001 with 105mm gun

 

 

and VK3601 with KwK 40, I'll play again.

 

 

my best wishes to everyone!

  That's kind a sad to see to be honest, fancy top tier stuff takes all the space in the updates. Hopefully Snail will turn his attention to lower ranks some day.

[kingoftigertank 73]

think the tech tree should have the technical tiger 2 the forgotten tiger blueprint the vk4502h. basically a tiger 1 with sloped front armour and slightly sloped side armour, mounted with tiger 2p turret and gun. would fit at the end of tier 3 at around 6.0 especially as it has 80mm of sloped armour giving it effective armour thickness of around 125mm

Edited January 18, 2022 by kingoftigertank

[Cpt_Jack_Irons 464]

2 hours ago, kingoftigertank said:

think the tech tree should have the technical tiger 2 the forgotten tiger blueprint the vk4502h. basically a tiger 1 with sloped front armour and slightly sloped side armour, mounted with tiger 2p turret and gun. would fit at the end of tier 3 at around 6.0 especially as it has 80mm of sloped armour giving it effective armour thickness of around 125mm

Depends on how real it is

[kingoftigertank 73]

14 minutes ago, Cpt_Jack_Irons said:

Depends on how real it is

sadly never got past the blueprint stage as was dropped for the vk4503, the tiger 2 we got in the end

[lLiberté 345]

15 hours ago, kingoftigertank said:

think the tech tree should have the technical tiger 2 the forgotten tiger blueprint the vk4502h. basically a tiger 1 with sloped front armour and slightly sloped side armour, mounted with tiger 2p turret and gun. would fit at the end of tier 3 at around 6.0 especially as it has 80mm of sloped armour giving it effective armour thickness of around 125mm

  When first I saw this, I really wanted to include it. The problem is, it would only create heat among player base still, it has some potential.

 

 

13 hours ago, Cpt_Jack_Irons said:

Depends on how real it is

  It meets the bare minimum requirement of Gaijin's vehicle implementation policy, it got its turret built. Thing is ‘Porsche’ turret" of Krupp that was fitted to Tiger II (P) was actually designed for VK45.02 project in two different version VK45.02(H) and VK45.02(P) , according to Tanks Encyclopedia's article. 

 

  As I said, It has some potential but theres the question of placement. It has no business below Rank IV thats for sure,but BR is hard to determine.

 

Spoiler

Krupp Turret Designed for VK45.02 Programme

 

  With a second thought, VK45.02 could be an excellent vehicle (I'm assuming turret is enough for the vehicle) for crafting event in its red primer with other regular camos. 

 

Edited January 19, 2022 by Dewastor

[Cpt_Jack_Irons 464]

2 hours ago, Dewastor said:

  It meets the bare minimum requirement of Gaijin's vehicle implementation policy, it got its turret built. Thing is ‘Porsche’ turret" of Krupp that was fitted to Tiger II (P) was actually designed for VK45.02 project in two different version VK45.02(H) and VK45.02(P) , according to Tanks Encyclopedia's article. 

 

  As I said, It has some potential but theres the question of placement. It has no business below Rank IV thats for sure,but BR is hard to determine.

Looking at the Vehicle it feels like it would be the same as the Panthers, Great Hull Armor but Bad Turret Armor

Edited January 19, 2022 by Cpt_Jack_Irons

[kingoftigertank 73]

5 hours ago, Cpt_Jack_Irons said:

Looking at the Vehicle it feels like it would be the same as the Panthers, Great Hull Armor but Bad Turret Armor

potentially yes, but probably just more like a middle ground vehicle with meh armour and great gun 

[Cpt_Jack_Irons 464]

18 hours ago, kingoftigertank said:

potentially yes, but probably just more like a middle ground vehicle with meh armour and great gun 

i guess but im not sure

however the issue is putting it at a fair BR

Edited January 20, 2022 by Cpt_Jack_Irons

[lLiberté 345]

 

  According to this diagram it has effective upper frontal armor ranging from 110 to 245mm (I might be mistaken though) and something like 65-70 lower plate armor. Considering you can still angle the tank, its frontal armor far better than the Tiger I but worse than Tiger II so only BR left is 6.0. How balanced it would be on that BR is questionable since long 88 can go through virtually anything it could face in this bracket. 

[kingoftigertank 73]

30 minutes ago, Dewastor said:

 

  According to this diagram it has effective upper frontal armor ranging from 110 to 245mm (I might be mistaken though) and something like 65-70 lower plate armor. Considering you can still angle the tank, its frontal armor far better than the Tiger I but worse than Tiger II so only BR left is 6.0. How balanced it would be on that BR is questionable since long 88 can go through virtually anything it could face in this bracket. 

i guess they could balance it by not giving it apcr but then again that could be a mistake and probably not solve anything as the aphe shell is the most commonly used shell anyway, dunno just seems too be that tank that might dominate but also could get wreaked. yeah angling will definetly help especially being the side armour is also slopped at 5-10 degrees which would help massively

[lLiberté 345]

On 15/11/2021 at 12:51, Dewastor said:

 

• Moved VK 36.01 Waffe to Rank III to bolster 4.XBR line-up. 

 

 

 Yeah Gaijin, remove Panzer IV from Rank III, it's such a great idea. 

 

 

On 20/01/2022 at 22:16, kingoftigertank said:

i guess they could balance it by not giving it apcr but then again that could be a mistake and probably not solve anything as the aphe shell is the most commonly used shell anyway, dunno just seems too be that tank that might dominate but also could get wreaked. yeah angling will definetly help especially being the side armour is also slopped at 5-10 degrees which would help massively

  I don't understand why there is no special matchmaking thing for some vehicles, it would solve problems for many tanks.

[kingoftigertank 73]

11 hours ago, Dewastor said:

  I don't understand why there is no special matchmaking thing for some vehicles, it would solve problems for many tanks.

problem is if you did that it would cause other problems too

[Ghostmaxi 873]

I did some digging, because id love to see these vehicles especially the 105mm LeFh 18 and the 7,5/5,5 cm Gun.

But here and in the other reports is so few written about the 7,5/5,5 cm Pak 41 or Waffe 0725. Or in this case will be 7,5 cm KwK 41 L/57

Reloadspeed was also to be found of up to 4 Sec so it wont be that bad!

So here are some specs you can wait for

Name: 7,5 cm KwK 41 L/57

Caliber: 7,5/5,5 cm (on statcard it will show 5,5 same as on the allready in game 2,8/2,0 cm s.Pz.B. 41)

Ammo Types: APCR, APBC (or APCBC because the round has a ballistic cap but at the same time is flatnose but it cant be made APHEBC from the russians because well no HE part) and HE.

More precice list:

Apcr: Pzgr. 41 H.K. and Pzgr. 41 StK.  |   Apbc/Apcbc: Pzgr. 41 W   |   He: Sprgr. 41

 

Pzgr.41 H.K.   Test showed 120mm at 30° (but unknown ammo kind and they only had 1 Shot XD and by the Mv it is guessed to be the St round) and calculation was 195mm at 500m and 170mm at 1000m. (seems a bit high idk) But it could by the Panzerbeschusstafel penetrate the T-34 up to 400m (as well as the St. grenade and this is meant by beeing a tat lower than the normal 60° cince it is a book for a possibly even slightly dug in AT Gun with the Splittrail!)

Weight: 2,6 Kg

Mv: 1260 M/s

Core diameter: 30mm

Core weight: 1,00 Kg

Calculated Pen at 10m 219mm

 

Pzgr. 41 StK.

Weight: 3,00 Kg

Mv: 1170 M/s

(cince its heavier the core is also bigger but i couldnt find info of it, if by the picture the core weight and diameter is the same it will be 198mm)

 

Pzgr. 41 W (Apbc/Apcbc) (It is written to be Softsteel but there where also some found with higher strength!)

Weight: 2,5 Kg

Mv: 1230 M/s

Pen at 10m: 175mm (Shure its flathead but so are the Soviet Aphebc which also dont get a flat pen reduction as well as material quality isnt represented)

 

Sprgr. 41 (He)

Weight: 2,62 Kg

Mv: 900 M/s

Exp.Mass: 186g of Fp.02 and Np. 10 so TNT Aquivalent of 199,02g (Found it in the Geschossringbuch)

 

 

Pictures about the ammo:

Spoiler

The T 34 B (verstärkt) (reinforced) are meant the T 34 Stz etc. which have the 25mm extra plate for up to 60mm front armor!)

 

 

One Souce tho in german (but has neat pictures), its the Tank Shooting table (where to shoot at what distance (save distances inside the Max pen distance so the gun will certainly be a little bit better in game cince like the 28mm gun because of the nature beeing squeeze bore it wont get the formular.)  (which even shows that the Training/none core Apbc/Apcbc round was used for main combat) https://www.aboutww2militaria.com/de/deutsch-fuehrung-um-die-feindlichen-panzer-eingreifen-7-5-cm-pak-41-panzerabwehrkanone.html

https://wiki.warthunder.ru/New_formuls_for_calculating_of_the_armour_piercing

Edited March 13, 2022 by Ghostmaxi

[lLiberté 345]

On 19/02/2022 at 21:18, Ghostmaxi said:

I did some digging, because id love to see these vehicles especially the 105mm LeFh 18 and the 7,5/5,5 cm Gun.

But here and in the other reports is so few written about the 7,5/5,5 cm Pak 41 or Waffe 0725. Or in this case will be 7,5 cm KwK 41 L/57

Reloadspeed was also to be found of up to 4 Sec so it wont be that bad!

So here are some specs you can wait for

Name: 7,5 cm KwK 41 L/57

Caliber: 7,5/5,5 cm (on statcard it will show 5,5 same as on the allready in game 2,8/2,0 cm s.Pz.B. 41)

Ammo Types: APCR, APBC (or APCBC because the round has a ballistic cap but at the same time is flatnose but it cant be made APHEBC from the russians because well no HE part) and HE.

More precice list:

Apcr: Pzgr. 41 H.K. and Pzgr. 41 StK.  |   Apbc/Apcbc: Pzgr. 41 W   |   He: Sprgr. 41

 

Pzgr.41 H.K.   Test showed 120mm at 30° (but unknown ammo kind and they only had 1 Shot XD and by the Mv it is guessed ot be the St round) and calculation was 195mm at 500m and 170mm at 1000m. (seems a bit high idk) But it could by the Panzerbeschusstafel penetrate the T-34 up to 400m (as well as the St. grenade and this is meant by beeing a tat lower than the normal 60° cince it is a book for a possibly even slightly dug in AT Gun with the Splittrail!)

Weight: 2,58 Kg

Mv: 1260 M/s

Core diameter: 30mm

Core weight: 1,00 Kg

Calculated Pen at 10m 219mm

 

Pzgr. 41 StK.

Weight: 3,00 Kg

Mv: 1170 M/s

(cince its heavier the core is also bigger but i couldnt find info of it, but if the core has same weight and diameter and just the round was changed to accomodate a longer one then the penetration is 198mm at 10m)

 

Pzgr. 41 W (Apbc/Apcbc) (It is written to be Softsteel but there where also some found with higher strength!)

Weight: 2,48 Kg

Mv: 1230 M/s

Pen at 10m: 175mm (Shure its flathead but so are the Soviet Aphebc which also dont get a flat pen reduction as well as material quality isnt represented)

 

Sprgr. 41 (He)

Weight: 2,61 Kg

Mv: 900 M/s

Exp.Mass: Unknown but at least 170g Fp. 02 und Np. 10 (which is from the smaller 5 cm Sprgr 38)(TNT and Nitropenta in 90/10 (Fp.02 stands for Füllpulver 02  which is a deck name for TNT and Np 10 is short for Nitropenta 10 and the 10 stands for the part how much is in it. (which is also wrong in game represented ...) So 170g would be TNT aquivalent: 181,9g (170-17+28,9)

 

Pictures about the ammo:

Reveal hidden contents

The T 34 B (verstärkt) (reinforced) are meant the T 34 Stz etc. which have the 25mm extra plate for up to 60mm front armor!)

 

 

One Souce tho in german (but has neat pictures), its the Tank Shooting table (where to shoot at what distance (save distances inside the Max pen distance so the gun will certainly be a little bit better in game cince like the 28mm gun because of the nature beeing squeeze bore it wont get the formular.)  (which even shows that the Training/none core Apbc/Apcbc round was used for main combat) https://www.aboutww2militaria.com/de/deutsch-fuehrung-um-die-feindlichen-panzer-eingreifen-7-5-cm-pak-41-panzerabwehrkanone.html

https://wiki.warthunder.ru/New_formuls_for_calculating_of_the_armour_piercing

  I didn't now that it got any other ammo except APCR. Looks been better with alternative ammunition, hopefully snail will bless us some day. Thank you for your effort .

_{^{Bring Panzer IVs back to Rank III already Gaijin.}}

 

On 13/02/2022 at 02:05, kingoftigertank said:

problem is if you did that it would cause other problems too

  I mean locking some vehicles to not see full up-tier or full down-tier does not seem like a bad idea. It would increase queue times a bit though.

[kingoftigertank 73]

On 13/03/2022 at 10:54, Dewastor said:

  I didn't now that it got any other ammo except APCR. Looks been better with alternative ammunition, hopefully snail will bless us some day. Thank you for your effort .

yeah many german tanks could do with better rounds like the panzer3 would be better with its apcbc round which would help fight kv1

[Chris4win 366]

A tank in front of the tiger would be great. New players could learn heavy tanks bevor they get the tiger1

[lLiberté 345]

 

  After quite some time, I've finally revamped this suggestions, there is not much change in terms of vehicles but added detailed specifications and images. Also fixed broken links and images.

 

I still think this would improve overall German Tech Tree. Splitting Panzer III Branch and Heavy Tank Branch would allow for additional of some more new vehicles besides heavy tanks. Panzer III could lead to joint projects after M48s (such as MBT-70 and EMBTs) while Heavy Tank line could lead to East German vehicles Rank V onwards with T-54AMZ and marking the line with recently added T-72M1.

[lLiberté 345]

 

  After some research I've decided that I could implement East German vehicles to Heavy Tank Line. It was in my mind for some time, and not having any vehicles after Rank IV really bothered me. So, now Heavy Tank Line evolves into NVA Branch, I've excluded some vehicles, it is purely my choice to not add them as I either deemed them as unnecessary or too controversial to add.

 

  Here it is the current version of the Independent Heavy German Tank Line:

 

 

  As you can see, after Tiger II Germany had no heavy vehicles to follow up, rather than mixing Eastern equipment I found it giving them their own branch more appropriate. 

 

List of Missing Vehicles 

• T-34-85

  Simply I don't think Germany needs T-34-85, Tigers and Panther are there and it fills no gaps or solves no problems present in the branch

• IS-II(M)

  Another vehicle I think unnecessary to add. There is already two potent vehicles at similar battle rating, Tiger II (P) and Tiger II (H). I don't think it is required at all. 

• T-X/T-10

  Although high tier heavy tank would be beneficial to the branch, East German army never closed the deal and it is not even certain which version they would buy. 

• T-54A

I don't think it is really necessary to an outright copy past T-54, as following vehicles are already copy-pastey enough. 

• T-55A - T-55A(K1) - T-55A(K2) -T-55A(K3)

Same reason above.

 

 

Vehicle Which Could Be Added

• T-72(K) & T-72(K1)

  Command versions of T-72, could be added as premium to compliment the East German line-up.

• T-72ÜV-2

  I'm not sure if its another designation of existing vehicles or a separate one. So I did not include it in tree, but depending on the situation, it could be added.

• T-72S  

  Similar situation with T-10, Germany initially planned to order but fall of East Germany prohibited the sale. 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Dewastor

[Chris4win 366]

10 minutes ago, Dewastor said:

 

  After some research I've decided I could implement East German vehicles to Heavy Tank Line. It was in my mind for some time, and not having any vehicles after IV really bothered me. So, now Heavy Tank Line evolves into NVA Branch, I've excluded some vehicles, it is purely my choice to not add them as I either I've deemed them as unnecessary or too controversial to add.

 

  Here it is the current version of the Independent Heavy German Tank Line:

 

 

  As you can see, after Tiger II Germany had no heavy vehicles to follow up, rather than mixing Eastern equipment I found it giving them their own branch more appropriate. 

 

List of Missing Vehicles 

• T-34-85

  Simply I don't think Germany needs T-34-85 in any capacity, Tigers and Panther are there and there no fills to gap with them. 

• IS-II(M)

  Another vehicle I think unnecessary to add. There is already two potent vehicles at similar battle rating, Tiger II (P) and Tiger II (H). I don't think it is required at all. 

• T-X/T-10

  Although high tier heavy tank would be beneficial to the branch, East German army never closed the deal and it is not even certain which version they would buy. 

• T-54A

I don't think it is really necessary to an outright copy past T-54, as following vehicles are already copy-pastey enough. 

• T-55A - T-55A(K1) - T-55A(K2) -T-55A(K3)

Same reason above.

 

 

Vehicle Which Could Be Added

• T-72(K) & T-72(K1)

  Command versions of T-72, could be added as premium to compliment the East German line-up.

• T-72ÜV-2

  I'm not sure if its another designation of existing vehicles or a separate one. So I did not include it in tree, but depending on the situation, it could be added.

• T-72S  

  Similar situation with T-10, Germany initially planned to order but fall of East Germany prohibited the sale. 

 

 

 

I would keep the three m48s in the line and folder the t55s and T-72 with the T-72ÜV. The kpz70 should move to the leopard line. That would make historical sense too.

Result would be a heavy tank line and starting at tier 5 a "foreign" tank line

Edited May 20, 2023 by Chris4win

[lLiberté 345]

15 hours ago, Chris4win said:

 

I would keep the three m48s in the line and folder the t55s and T-72 with the T-72ÜV. The kpz70 should move to the leopard line. That would make historical sense too.

Result would be a heavy tank line and starting at tier 5 a "foreign" tank line

 

  In current in-game arrangement, this makes much more sense, I think you are suggesting something like this: (I've kept KPz-70 in purpose, as its collaborative project)

 

 

  I've envisage something a little more different, basically three main branches instead of two. Heavy/NVA Branch - Secondary MBT Branch (Collaborative Projects & Prototypes) - Main MBT Branch

 

  As you can see second branch has a gap, though for gap I'm thinking VK 30.01 (P). It would do well at 5.0, and would be nice complimentary vehicle.