spg Versuchsflakwagen with 8.8 cm Flak 37 (not the same as the one that is already in game!)

[SaperPL 446]

This vehicle essentially is a combination of two pieces that we already have in game - the special chassis that is used by VFW but was supposed to be a platform for various guns, and the Flak 37 8.8 cm cannon.

THIS IS NOT THE SAME VFW WE HAVE IN GAME, THIS ONE HAS A DIFFERENT TURRET/GUN

 

Photos:

 

 

 

 

 

 

HISTORY (simplified, in my own words due to restrictions):

 

In 1941 the order was placed for three prototype vehicles to be built. The vehicle was supposed to be a bunker buster, a "fold-out" SPG that could quickly drive in range and be ready to fire at the target.

In mid 1942 productions started and just a single prototype was made by the late 1943 due to bombing raids disrupting the multiple projects. It had the 8.8 cm Flak 41 gun as we have it in game right now.
In early 1944 the orders were given to convert the prototype to 8.8 cm Flak 37 gun to be sent to Italy as a part of battalion using Flak 37's on Sd.Kfz.9 chassis, the vehicle we have already in game as well.

Air intakes for the engine were enlarged at that point of conversion.

 

SOURCES:

1. The source for this: http://www.tankarchives.ca/2018/07/spg-and-fold-out-assault-gun.html Original article in Russian: https://warspot.ru/10540-samohodnyy-lafet-i-zenitka-raskladushka
2. Article on ww 2 in color: http://www.ww2incolor.com/german-artillery/gr10_5.html
3. Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grille_10

All these sources note Flak 37 configuration in one or another way.

 

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS:

 

Length

• 7.00 meters

 

Width

• 3.00 meters

 

Height

• 2.80 meters

 

Weight

• 26 tons

 

Engine

• 1 x 360 hp @ 3000 RPM Maybach HL90P engine 

 

Armour

• Hull: 20 / 14 /14 (from in-game VFW)
• Turret: 15 / 0 / 0 (from in-game Flak 37, although side skirts of the shield look slightly different on the photos)

 

Armament

• 1 x 88mm Flak 37 Cannon (from in-game Flak 37)

 

Crew

• 9 soldiers (more backpacks )

 

FINAL NOTES:
 

We have almost all code and assets required to have this vehicle in game. The only thing missing is the model of the shield for Flak 37, so this is potentially a cheap addition to the game from developers point of view.

The VFW is a vehicle that has unique style of play, but was limited to an event. Having this second one means another chance of getting this for people who started playing later or missed the event. This also means a chance to have two of them for those who have the in-game VFW.

 

This vehicle has slightly thicker turret shield although it is smaller, and potentially has slightly improved engine performance. This means such vehicle could be have slightly higher BR, where it could end up being placed against stronger enemies than the current in-game VFW, as a fallback to counter it being a potentially OP-lineup of two of those.

Having more of those in the game, and also this topic being revisited, could mean more people getting to know how to fight against those, since those would pop up more often, could be balanced better by more people knowing how to counter them and that they need to counter them since they are a serious threat.

 

Also there could be some mechanical improvements made to the chassis like animated skirts - we have animated radars and ATGM launchers, and if it can be made in a non-game-breaking way, it would be good to counter the issue of VFW with open skirts blocking roads for other players as well as hitting everything everywhere while moving from place to place. Also historically the skirts could have been opened up separately which is useful both to protect one side from machine gun fire while having possibility to rotate the turret freely on the other side. This would be useful to finding better spots for this vehicle as well.

Note to moderator: The possibility of implementing animated skirts potentially affects the existing vehicle in game, but since we are talking about a new one, it's something that could simply be an additional effect of implementing this for the new vehicle. There was a separate suggestion about the VFW side skirts, this statement here is just to note to the players this is an opportunity to have this issue revisited. When current VFW was introduced to the game, such animations weren't as widespread across ATGMs and AAA as they are now. If you believe it's against the rules, please remove this part of the submission instead of archiving whole submission.

[Princess_Pinch 5,625]

Open for discussion. o7

[eleks12 1,079]

+1

[Milocat 4,854]

+1 for sure, I would love to have another doom toaster to drive around in.

[Cpt_Jack_Irons 464]

Major +1 Nice Tech Tree Option for those who missed the VFW Event

[TheNexonRegime 429]

As Cpt_Jack_Irons says, it would make a great tech tree version of the Event VFW so that everyone has access to it. +1

[Chomusuke1 1,219]

[SaperPL 446]

On 17/03/2021 at 08:19, Chomusuke1 said:

 

Thanks for quoting it like this, I didn't think about just putting a scan/screenshot of the page and direct quotes are against the rules so I had to write it in my own words to get accepted by mods.

[Kingtiez@live 606]

This one would be cool. I missed out on the long 8.8 version +1

[SaperPL 446]

On 10/04/2021 at 07:56, Kingtiez@live said:

This one would be cool. I missed out on the long 8.8 version +1

 

If you have some event vehicles to sell to get up to 60~ish GJN, then do it and try to buy it on Gaijin market. It's still totally worth it if you are playing 5.7~6.7 often. I really enjoy this vehicle and I enjoy playing this range because it's that WWII vibe tier. It is also really effective when it comes to fulfilling some various chellanges/tasks.

[聖 園 ミカ 102]

Really want to have this vehicle even I have got VFW already.

 

Hope it's BR is 4.7.

[SaperPL 446]

On 30/06/2021 at 16:36, YKhzh said:

Really want to have this vehicle even I have got VFW already.

 

Hope it's BR is 4.7.

 

Judging by the gun it could be 4.7 like the flak 37 truck, but its significantly more mobile. Apart from that note that the flak truck is rank II which kind of reduces the amount of people playing it because of the battle task requirements for rank III and I wouldn't like this VFW to be made rank II, so I'd rather have it at higher BR than the flak truck.

I guess it would still make sense for me if it was 5.3 or even the same 5.7 BR because while it'll have just slightly worse penetration than Flak 41 on VFW because of higher velocity/less drop on angled armour/worse angle, especially at long range, it's got slightly thicker shield so maybe you'll be better protected from 50CAL MGs?

 

5.3 feel like ideal spot for this, I think, because it would allow for not being pulled against 6.7 vehicles, so it'd have this advantage over the one we have already in game. Apart from this, I really, really wouldn't want this to be dropped to 4.7 because then it'll probably get some nerfs as well.

[Wolf_89 2,525]

This would fit nicely in the tech tree.

 

BUT GAIJIN! PLS! make it so we can open and close the sides when we are in the match.

Just use the flaps mechanics. So we can switch between all 3 modes in a match. Same goes for VFM.

And other vehicles in game the could use a similar system.

 

And use landing gear mechanics on vehicles with support legs to reduce recoil and increase the vehicles aim and reload speed if the legs are down.

Like ZiS-30. Support legs down = higher fire rate/accuracy but can't move. Support legs up = slower fire rate/ worse accuracy but move.

Similar system for vehicles like Versuchsflakwagen/VFM.

Side panels fully down = Faster reload rate/able to turn the gun 360 degrees/less protection for the crew from low caliber weapons. 

But you might get caught on a tree/building because the vehicle gets wider.

Side panels fully up = Slower reload rate/not able to turn the gun 360 degrees/more protection for the crew from low caliber weapons.

Side panels semi open/closed = a mix between fully open/closed.

 

There are even vehicles the could use both types of mechanics.

[SaperPL 446]

On 17/07/2021 at 14:37, Wolf_89 said:

BUT GAIJIN! PLS! make it so we can open and close the sides when we are in the match.

Just use the flaps mechanics. So we can switch between all 3 modes in a match. Same goes for VFM.

And other vehicles in game the could use a similar system.

 

And use landing gear mechanics on vehicles with support legs to reduce recoil and increase the vehicles aim and reload speed if the legs are down.

Like ZiS-30. Support legs down = higher fire rate/accuracy but can't move. Support legs up = slower fire rate/ worse accuracy but move.

Similar system for vehicles like Versuchsflakwagen/VFM.

Side panels fully down = Faster reload rate/able to turn the gun 360 degrees/less protection for the crew from low caliber weapons. 

But you might get caught on a tree/building because the vehicle gets wider.

Side panels fully up = Slower reload rate/not able to turn the gun 360 degrees/more protection for the crew from low caliber weapons.

Side panels semi open/closed = a mix between fully open/closed.

 

There are even vehicles the could use both types of mechanics.

 

I share your enthusiasm towards the openable sides, even according to the sources they could've been used separately (you're covering your back and right side while left skirt is open for example), but I'm not sure if this is a correct place to suggest such overhaul - it should go to gameplay or interface suggestions.

 

Also this is a complex topic as the mechanism needs to detect when it can actually open those so it won't allow for example climbing upwards to raise your vehicle between two others etc.

Edited July 27, 2021 by SaperPL

[SnakeMantis007@psn 30]

Very interested in this variant.
 

+1

[WreckingAres283 4,262]

+1 for a TT Toaster

[EddieVanHalo@live 880]

Its a shame this was not implemented, would interesting  . Considering what a legend the 88 was in WW2 folklore the 88 is somewhat underrepresented in  game . 

[SaperPL 446]

On 07/11/2021 at 13:56, EddieVanHalo@live said:

Its a shame this was not implemented, would interesting  . Considering what a legend the 88 was in WW2 folklore the 88 is somewhat underrepresented in  game . 

 

Not sure if it's that underrepresented, VFW is a great glass cannon and the 8.8cm Flak 37 halftrack could be similarly effective if not for the fact that there is a bug with depression on the top of the driver cab where travel lock makes it so that the gun needs to go up slightly over whole cab and not just this portion where the travel lock is, so that makes it so you can't engage effectively at close range. With the game making it so that the battles are fought at closer distance, they should've made the bug in opposite way so the travel lock is neglected, because the whole armoured front and cab doesn't make sense if you can't shoot forward unless on exactly even ground. So having more 88's that actually can fight at closer range would be really cool.

Edited November 14, 2021 by SaperPL

[qpranger 1,887]

No, I want moar boring Shermans please !! 

[EddieVanHalo@live 880]

33 minutes ago, SaperPL said:

 

Not sure if it's that underrepresented, VFW is a great glass cannon and the 8.8cm Flak 37 halftrack could be similarly effective if not for the fact that there is a bug with depression on the top of the driver cab where travel lock makes it so that the gun needs to go up slightly over whole cab and not just this portion where the travel lock is, so that makes it so you can't engage effectively at close range. With the game making it so that the battles are fought at closer distance, they should've made the bug in opposite way so the travel lock is neglected, because the whole armoured front and cab doesn't make sense if you can't shoot forward unless on exactly even ground. So having more 88's that actually can fight at closer range would be really cool.

I know what you mean .Personally I think the sight lets it down . The idea of the 88 being a legend at long range is fiction in the game because you cant see far enough    

[SaperPL 446]

On 14/11/2021 at 18:01, EddieVanHalo@live said:

I know what you mean .Personally I think the sight lets it down . The idea of the 88 being a legend at long range is fiction in the game because you cant see far enough    

 

I'm playing mostly arcade, so this is not that big of a problem for me, but you've got a point that I haven't taken into consideration before. I just checked out of curiosity if the Flak 37 in game has a different scope, but no, it's the same negligible amount of zoom. We should probably look for some data on the scopes for it to see if it's accurate. It might have been nerfed by devs "thanks to" the lack of data about it being provided. 

 

Before the volumetric shells were introduced, the VFW was actually really, really effective in long range games. Like most of the shots at more than 1.2 km were lethal. It was pretty normal to get 21-23 killls (in arcade though) on Kursk with some occasional matches where I had 27~28 kills on this map, of course with help of bombers, but it was like move for 10 seconds from the spawn to have visibility of the other side of the map and snipe, 3-4 shots and you've got the bomber and drop them on the objective areas and get back to VFW to shoot again. Maps like Fields of Poland which had easy shots at 1.6+ km with VFW  between A and C, Kuban and also Wallonia had easy sniping at the begin of the match as well at 1.3 km. I had some actual 2.65~2.75 km one-shot-kills on Field of Poland from time to time.

 

So it's not like it wasn't working, you just have to consider that the game is still scaling down the engagement distances for the balance, so the effective distances are shorter than in actual ww2 battles.

 

The issue though is that the volumetric shells implementation introduced issues with penetrating some common vehicles that makes it so 88's feel underpowered at longer distances, but it's not just at longer distances - some "point blank" (distance between you and the enemy is the length of your vehicle or shorter) shots showing green marker in arcade (100% penetration chance) are bouncing or not penetrating while still leaving the 3d decal of a huge hole in the hull from the shot, in some models a see-through hole iirc.

 

The way the panther's front plate behaves is criminal in this manner because it's like you always have a green marker in the middle unless the enemy is properly angled (which they don't/can't always do) and you barely ever penetrate it. I captured video from hangar with new protection map, which shows there is something wrong with it, and while I get that the tool was really fresh at that point, the panther is one of the basic examples of angled armour, and this issue indicates that there is something wrong with the data or implementation of penetration.

 

[EddieVanHalo@live 880]

1 hour ago, SaperPL said:

 

I'm playing mostly arcade, so this is not that big of a problem for me, but you've got a point that I haven't taken into consideration before. I just checked out of curiosity if the Flak 37 in game has a different scope, but no, it's the same negligible amount of zoom. We should probably look for some data on the scopes for it to see if it's accurate. It might have been nerfed by devs "thanks to" the lack of data about it being provided. 

 

Before the volumetric shells were introduced, the VFW was actually really, really effective in long range games. Like most of the shots at more than 1.2 km were lethal. It was pretty normal to get 21-23 killls (in arcade though) on Kursk with some occasional matches where I had 27~28 kills on this map, of course with help of bombers, but it was like move for 10 seconds from the spawn to have visibility of the other side of the map and snipe, 3-4 shots and you've got the bomber and drop them on the objective areas and get back to VFW to shoot again. Maps like Fields of Poland which had easy shots at 1.6+ km with VFW  between A and C, Kuban and also Wallonia had easy sniping at the begin of the match as well at 1.3 km. I had some actual 2.65~2.75 km one-shot-kills on Field of Poland from time to time.

 

So it's not like it wasn't working, you just have to consider that the game is still scaling down the engagement distances for the balance, so the effective distances are shorter than in actual ww2 battles.

 

The issue though is that the volumetric shells implementation introduced issues with penetrating some common vehicles that makes it so 88's feel underpowered at longer distances, but it's not just at longer distances - some "point blank" (distance between you and the enemy is the length of your vehicle or shorter) shots showing green marker in arcade (100% penetration chance) are bouncing or not penetrating while still leaving the 3d decal of a huge hole in the hull from the shot, in some models a see-through hole iirc.

 

The way the panther's front plate behaves is criminal in this manner because it's like you always have a green marker in the middle unless the enemy is properly angled (which they don't/can't always do) and you barely ever penetrate it. I captured video from hangar with new protection map, which shows there is something wrong with it, and while I get that the tool was really fresh at that point, the panther is one of the basic examples of angled armour, and this issue indicates that there is something wrong with the data or implementation of penetration.

 

The Flak 41 has some phenomenal ranges quoted historically but I certainly can't replicate them in game simply because of lack of optics .I'm also not entirely convinced the shell drop is correct but I'm not an expert .Gaijin do have to consider game balance on occasion  . Wikipedia (not always a reliable source ) claims . " The 8.8 cm Flak was powerful enough to penetrate over 84 mm of armor at a range of 2 km " . The big problem is I guess is if the 88 is too good the Gaijin has nowhere to go with the Sturmer Emil,Nashorn , Waffentrager etc . I do still find the 88 truck to be a beast on the odd occasion that luck is with you and you can get into position with it and it can be a game changer if you do manage to find a good spot . I have no idea how to hit aircraft with it though   

 

[SaperPL 446]

43 minutes ago, EddieVanHalo@live said:

The 8.8 cm Flak was powerful enough to penetrate over 84 mm of armor at a range of 2 km " . The big problem is I guess is if the 88 is too good the Gaijin has nowhere to go with the Sturmer Emil,Nashorn , Waffentrager etc .

 

IMO all (long ammo type: Pzgr 39/43 vs Tiger's Pzgr 39) 88s - VFW, Flak 37 on halftrack, Nashorn, Waffentrager, Jagdpanther and Tiger II - behave roughly the same with the exception that VFW has slightly lower velocity and thus slightly bigger drop so it gets better penetration angle at long range. The difference between the vehicles though is how much space for elbows does the loader has which I believe is the rough base for the reload speed

Sturer Emil and other high-calibre guns are a different story - here they are used as shoot once, but you're pretty sure that you'll blow away the enemy if you hit him in the centre, similarly with brummbar, while in reality those were more like siege weapons than tank hunters. We're missing out on the Assault Gun class of vehicles when it comes to gameplay - yes, we have those in game (105mm M4A3, brummbar, AVRE, sturmpanzer etc), but there is no separate gameplay for them because fortifications/bunkers are indestructible. Because of that, those vehicles are kind of making thing complicated for other self-propelled guns when it comes to balancing, but that's not the core issue here with 88s.

 

The issue is like I said before, scaling distance of the fight down and increasing average Time To Kill for the sake of gameplay. The same thing happens in other modern PVP games, good example is Counter Strike  in which AK47 along other assault rifles is performing like a mediocre machine pistol simply because there is not enough room for longer engagements on the levels and it would be one-shot-kill/incapacitate if it was made realistically, and the whole game would be about who takes this gun, wins by camping and spraying anyone that comes. The situation is roughly the same with WT when it comes to distances - we mostly fight at really close distances because otherwise the maps would need to be either really big with people actually looking most of the time for the fight (which happens on simulation) or the place for the fight would be predetermined with entry of the match being always the same just driving forward till everyone gets in range of the front line, so it's still somewhat symbolic use of the weaponry rather than realistic (apart from simulation which seems really close).

[Raiden_Black 1,875]

I already hate the VFW
Don't  me

[SaperPL 446]

On 20/03/2022 at 17:00, Raiden_Black said:

I already hate the VFW

 

Well, there are other glass cannons. I believe the issue of VFW being OP comes from it being not well known, played by many people because it's limited.

 

The VFW has less survivability than Nashorn if people know where to shoot at. You can easily take out half of the crew - all the gunners in one shot and then finish off the rest, or if you can flank it, you can just cripple it quickly with MG and then kill the driver and it's over. But it's again the problem of not being able to play it to see where are it's actual weaknesses is the main reason of it being OP. Once you'll get it, you'll see what I'm talking about. Because of that, I often use Nashorn as my second vehicle simply because once you're hit properly, you're left with 3 or 2 crewmen and you're reduced to Nashorn's performance.

 

When I'm playing a Tiger, I usually shoot at the gunners right away and then try to cripple it by hitting driver or the transmission. It may take some time to finish it off, but taking care of it by crippling it is easy.

The second issue of VFW is that by being OP in fire rate, you learn to shoot properly because you're getting second chances, so overall I guess it's not only that the vehicle is more powerful, but after awhile, the players using them are pretty good because it helps you to train sniping. It's similar to what someone told me about IS-6 being a good premium until some time ago, because it's armour gives you a chance to improve if you fail because it's hard to pen, so you can learn a lot instead of dying quickly and needing to take another different vehicle.