No fly zone

[FATincule 52]

In many battles too much players fly in the respawn point. Impossible to begin to play, especially with the bombardiers. Why not to insert a no fly zone? 

[Lexing_ 241]

9 hours ago, FATincule said:

In many battles too much players fly in the respawn point. Impossible to begin to play, especially with the bombardiers. Why not to insert a no fly zone? 

1. A no fly zone already exists in the form of the airfield. 

2. Don't spawn bombers first spawn. Get altitude with fighters first and make sure your bombers can actually get to their targets.

3. We already see people abuse airfield AAA to rob people of kills in RB. A no fly zone will accomplish just that.

[FATincule 52]

On 26/04/2021 at 23:32, Lexing_ said:

1. A no fly zone already exists in the form of the airfield. 

2. Don't spawn bombers first spawn. Get altitude with fighters first and make sure your bombers can actually get to their targets.

3. We already see people abuse airfield AAA to rob people of kills in RB. A no fly zone will accomplish just that.

I speak for arcade battles. When you spawn (for example, the second time) there is just a fighters 2000 mt over you. Furthermore there are players that quietly fly on the enemy base, and aren't struck by anti-aircraft. Or it is a bug or something of other...

[Caralampio 90]

The OP is referring to spawn camping. A no-fly zone has been suggested countless times, including once by me, but it won't happen. Gaijin loves spawn campers.

We all have to go through the phases when we first meet the reality of spawn camping.

1. Denial.

2. Anger.

3. Bargaining (that's where the OP is).

4. Depression.

5. Acceptance.

 

These are the phases of grief, because spawn campers are griefing you.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Caralampio

[Lexing_ 241]

On 28/04/2021 at 05:00, FATincule said:

I speak for arcade battles. When you spawn (for example, the second time) there is just a fighters 2000 mt over you. Furthermore there are players that quietly fly on the enemy base, and aren't struck by anti-aircraft. Or it is a bug or something of other...

The second spawn should not be protected. It is the responsibility of the team to secure high altitude advantage early on in the match. As unsportsmanlike as spawn camping is it is more a result of a team's failure than anything. There's a reason why most spawn campers are master duelists, you need the ability to beat people in a fair fight and from a disadvantage to kill as many enemy players as possible. And when you get an advantage, it is also a duelist's instinct to abuse it as much as possible.

[SOL_1 1,013]

Nah, that ain't duelist instinct, that's just seal clubbing. Like come on now no value in these fights, just stat padding and getting cash, it's not even a contest. The tragic thing is that the playerbase cannot figure out how to deal with this, I think they're just scared of planes having altitude advantages, I see this a few times where me and the enemy are flying towards each other and at 3-4 kms he starts pulling the nose way back up to get a handful of meters on me, and of course he dies because he has no energy to follow any of my moves.

Some kind of aid against this is definitely a good idea, no-fly zone ain't it in my opinion though, I can see a few easy to abuse this that would demolish the quality of the game overnight. Something more subtle, maybe giving you a temporary immortality that last's X amount of time or until you leave the spawn area. I think players should be rewarded for gaining the altitude advantage, but they should have to fight harder to maintain it, and shooting players out from spawn is unhealthy for the game and should definitely be adressed in some way.

[Revan131 769]

just dive low as soon as you spawn.   spawn campers wont follow you because the entire reason they are spawn camping to to protect their KD ratio and following you down low means they might get shot down. 

[Lexing_ 241]

22 hours ago, bruh__moment said:

Nah, that ain't duelist instinct, that's just seal clubbing. Like come on now no value in these fights, just stat padding and getting cash, it's not even a contest. The tragic thing is that the playerbase cannot figure out how to deal with this, I think they're just scared of planes having altitude advantages, I see this a few times where me and the enemy are flying towards each other and at 3-4 kms he starts pulling the nose way back up to get a handful of meters on me, and of course he dies because he has no energy to follow any of my moves.

 

Yes... because someone who's truly good at the game eliminates all possibilities of being shot down before committing to any maneuver or tactical decision. Treating this game as a war game instead of a fly plane around game has its merits in PvP combat...

 

Also stall climbing in front of someone is the most stupid idea I've ever heard

22 hours ago, bruh__moment said:

Some kind of aid against this is definitely a good idea, no-fly zone ain't it in my opinion though, I can see a few easy to abuse this that would demolish the quality of the game overnight. Something more subtle, maybe giving you a temporary immortality that last's X amount of time or until you leave the spawn area. I think players should be rewarded for gaining the altitude advantage, but they should have to fight harder to maintain it, and shooting players out from spawn is unhealthy for the game and should definitely be adressed in some way.

That sort of immortality already exists for 5 seconds. If you aren't taking the 1 second it takes to look at the radar and take evasive action you deserve to get shot down.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

It's spawncampers, who can infest many video games but are particularly bad in this one. 

 

They hang out right over the enemy spawn and zoom in as soon as someone appears, so you have little time to maneuver or line up a good shot.  There's two groups of thinking on this, one the spawncampers who insist we're all beneath their skills, and should dive away if unable to compete...which ruins trying to gain altitude to down a bomber or get to the furball.  Then there's everyone else who's tired of it and feels they ruin the game.  Most of us are happy to be on the winning team or top tier, spawncampers need a 15 to 1 kill "fix" each game.

 

When I run into a spawncamper I'll file a complaint every time (it does no good but enough complaints will get them kicked off the game for awhile) and blacklist them.  If they're really ruining the match I just leave.   One of the more notorious ones used to come on these forums and post about the "hate mail" he got and played a routine of everyone else has a problem and spawncampers are really just great guys.  

 

Don't bother engaging them, at the very least it'll be a cat fight in chat. I've heard a lot of these guys who compulsively cheat and insist they're really not cheating have serious psychological issues, so just leave them to their fantasy world. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Kosher_Locust

[PanicAttacK 4]

So you "When I run into a spawn camper I'll file a complaint every time" so what rule exactly are they violating? You know what Gaijin does with false/baseless reports? You wanna guess?

 

P.S If you find yourself being spawn camped, then your team has already failed you.. You're complaining about having already lost the Air Battle or having failed to secure the Ground Battle/Defended the flanks as a team. And 9 out 10 times your team has already been defeated by this point.

 

 

 

 

[Kosher_Locust 120]

7 hours ago, PanicAttacK said:

So you "When I run into a spawn camper I'll file a complaint every time" so what rule exactly are they violating? You know what Gaijin does with false/baseless reports? You wanna guess?

 

P.S If you find yourself being spawn camped, then your team has already failed you.. You're complaining about having already lost the Air Battle or having failed to secure the Ground Battle/Defended the flanks as a team. And 9 out 10 times your team has already been defeated by this point.

 

 

 

 

It's the number of reports that are counted, probably automatically.  I doubt if they "investigate" any of them.

 

Otherwise just shut up, a "team" is a bunch of strangers tossed into a match, no teamwork or coordination, and campers are usually over the spawn after the first wave.  But you know what's ironic?  In my experience over half the time the camper's side is the one that loses the match despite what they do.  Go figure.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

And referring to the OP's comment, a "no fly" zone is perfectly doable as that feature is already in the game. Spawncampers will usually insist any changes to prevent camping are programmatically impossible as they're actually afraid of losing their easy winning streaks.  However, fly too far away from the battle zone and you get a "Return To Battlefield" warning then get flipped around.  So make the region defined as the "battlefield" unique for each team, and the "battlefield" for your team draws in to just before the enemy spawn, and the same on their side. A camper tries their gambit, they might get in a few shots then get flipped around facing the other way, and an easy target for any Stuka or Vultee.

[Lexing_ 241]

4 hours ago, Kosher_Locust said:

And referring to the OP's comment, a "no fly" zone is perfectly doable as that feature is already in the game. Spawncampers will usually insist any changes to prevent camping are programmatically impossible as they're actually afraid of losing their easy winning streaks.  However, fly too far away from the battle zone and you get a "Return To Battlefield" warning then get flipped around.  So make the region defined as the "battlefield" unique for each team, and the "battlefield" for your team draws in to just before the enemy spawn, and the same on their side. A camper tries their gambit, they might get in a few shots then get flipped around facing the other way, and an easy target for any Stuka or Vultee.

With all due respect, that's not the point I'm trying to argue. A no fly zone doesn't actually accomplish anything if the players refuse to utilize the additional time given to them (or fly for a headon with the closest enemy). I've seen players fly straight for minutes on end without looking around at their surroundings, or if they do, immediately pitch straight up without regard for their energy states. What difference will a no fly zone make on their behavior? Also, with this mechanic, I guarantee you that some players will find a way to abuse this to either drag out games where both teams are dead, or to use it to beat a superior duelist in a dogfight and teleport behind them. 

And it isnt as if this stops spawn camping either. The same people will still be sitting right outside of the protected area. The only reason spawn camping exists is because the objectives aren't PvP centric, rather being based on a PvPvE model. Create a mode with PvP objectives and spawn camping will cease to be a problem.

[anyuser 5,136]

Well, AirDom ist the most PvP centric mode we got.

And it doesn't work there either, because people either just lawndart into the clusterfuck below the cappoint or they climb directly at enemys that are between the spawnpoint and the clusterfuck.

 

We even got 100 Kills events, based on that mode.

Beside the usualy headon-thunder over and over again - read above.

This doesn't mean, that people in ADom give anything about the "not PvP" objective. If they would, they wouldn't turn and burn below 1000m all the time.

And for sure, they do spawn bombers in that mode...

[Caralampio 90]

Spawn camping is wrong because it exploits a weakness in the game which is, when you just spawned. Bombers are the most affected because they spawn higher (i.e. closer to the bandits) and are slower and more sluggish. Furthermore, they are always telling you that the thing to do with bombers especially those big 4-engine ones is to gain a lot of height by side climbing. Yeah to the side which is also covered by the campers. And if you have to dive like crazy every time, when will your bomber be able to climb again to gain that height for strategic bombing? Never, the only option IF you survive the campers is tree-top. Besides, even diving like crazy not always works. If the camper is already close or already diving, chances are he'll get you regardless. Also, it is frequent to lose at least one plane to campers when you are not aware of them (of course, someone will say we should always act as if campers were there, yeah what fun). You were fighting in the furball, got shot down, choose your next plane to rejoin and then you spawn and bam! I always try to warn fellow team players when I see campers around, so at least they can act faster, but I notice most people don't give a xxxx, or simply admonish you, "just dive and you'll be fine".

And about just diving, I have had camper scum chasing me all the way to the deck, so it's not always a steadfast rule that "they won't come down because they like it up there".

[anyuser 5,136]

Know when to spawn a bomber and when not.

With enemy fighters holding air supriority, regardless if close to your spawn or not, it is NOT the time to spawn a heavy bomber...

[Lexing_ 241]

15 hours ago, Caralampio said:

Spawn camping is wrong because it exploits a weakness in the game which is, when you just spawned.

So people exploit something in the game in order to get kills. That sounds just like everything else in the game. Exploiting a plane's superior speed to choose when to engage, exploiting ground attack objectives to farm wins, etc...

15 hours ago, Caralampio said:

Bombers are the most affected because they spawn higher (i.e. closer to the bandits) and are slower and more sluggish. Furthermore, they are always telling you that the thing to do with bombers especially those big 4-engine ones is to gain a lot of height by side climbing. Yeah to the side which is also covered by the campers. And if you have to dive like crazy every time, when will your bomber be able to climb again to gain that height for strategic bombing? Never, the only option IF you survive the campers is tree-top. Besides, even diving like crazy not always works. If the camper is already close or already diving, chances are he'll get you regardless.

Why are you spawning bombers if you know there is someone near the spawn? Furthermore, why are you spawning bombers at all if you don't already have air superiority in your local airspace?

15 hours ago, Caralampio said:

Also, it is frequent to lose at least one plane to campers when you are not aware of them (of course, someone will say we should always act as if campers were there, yeah what fun). You were fighting in the furball, got shot down, choose your next plane to rejoin and then you spawn and bam! I always try to warn fellow team players when I see campers around, so at least they can act faster, but I notice most people don't give a xxxx, or simply admonish you, "just dive and you'll be fine".

Then fight for high altitude. Spawn campers spawn in their own spawn. Fight them on your first spawn and worry about winning the game later

15 hours ago, Caralampio said:

And about just diving, I have had camper scum chasing me all the way to the deck, so it's not always a steadfast rule that "they won't come down because they like it up there".

Cool they chase you to the deck, and you die. Oh wait you can instantly respawn and dive on him.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

16 hours ago, Caralampio said:

Spawn camping is wrong because it exploits a weakness in the game which is, when you just spawned. Bombers are the most affected because they spawn higher (i.e. closer to the bandits) and are slower and more sluggish. Furthermore, they are always telling you that the thing to do with bombers especially those big 4-engine ones is to gain a lot of height by side climbing. Yeah to the side which is also covered by the campers. And if you have to dive like crazy every time, when will your bomber be able to climb again to gain that height for strategic bombing? Never, the only option IF you survive the campers is tree-top. Besides, even diving like crazy not always works. If the camper is already close or already diving, chances are he'll get you regardless. Also, it is frequent to lose at least one plane to campers when you are not aware of them (of course, someone will say we should always act as if campers were there, yeah what fun). You were fighting in the furball, got shot down, choose your next plane to rejoin and then you spawn and bam! I always try to warn fellow team players when I see campers around, so at least they can act faster, but I notice most people don't give a xxxx, or simply admonish you, "just dive and you'll be fine".

And about just diving, I have had camper scum chasing me all the way to the deck, so it's not always a steadfast rule that "they won't come down because they like it up there".

 

Bingo, If you spawn into a game and don't know they're around they'll usually get you killed at least once, and they will chase you down if they see an easy target or their plane is damaged and want one last kill.  Or last time I got into it with one I was flying backward from the spawn to gain altitude, still got hit.  

 

Probably the two things that would help bombers the most is if the AI gunners were upgraded--a fully spaded team should be able to lay down murderous fire, the other is make it a reward to guard bombers--even one friendly fighter keeping pace with a bomber can usually zap upcoming bad guys. Or even fellow supporting AI bombers since now they have low level AI attackers all over.

 

Which gives me yet another idea on how to paddle campers--AI bombers circling the spawn, all with fully upgraded gunners. Amazing how many simple solutions there can be to this supposedly intractable problem, isn't here?

[anyuser 5,136]

1 hour ago, Lexing_ said:

Cool they chase you to the deck, and you die. Oh wait you can instantly respawn and dive on him.

If they do so they are anything but "spawn campers" anyway.

Only idiots go down to the deck close to the enemy spawn point just to kill something with bombs strapped on.

To be fair, we got a lot of idiots in WT who will give up any advantage for a single kill.

[Lexing_ 241]

23 hours ago, Kosher_Locust said:

Probably the two things that would help bombers the most is if the AI gunners were upgraded--a fully spaded team should be able to lay down murderous fire, the other is make it a reward to guard bombers--even one friendly fighter keeping pace with a bomber can usually zap upcoming bad guys. Or even fellow supporting AI bombers since now they have low level AI attackers all over.

 

I hope I don't have to explain why giving certain vehicles the ability to shoot down other players without any input from their pilot in a PVP game is bad

[Caralampio 90]

On 05/07/2021 at 14:12, anyuser said:

If they do so they are anything but "spawn campers" anyway.

Only idiots go down to the deck close to the enemy spawn point just to kill something with bombs strapped on.

To be fair, we got a lot of idiots in WT who will give up any advantage for a single kill.

Well, I have been chased all the way down a couple of times by well-known campers (you know, *those* squadrons). Right into the airfield with all the AAA. Why they did so, who knows.

[Kosher_Locust 120]

On 07/07/2021 at 21:34, Caralampio said:

Well, I have been chased all the way down a couple of times by well-known campers (you know, *those* squadrons). Right into the airfield with all the AAA. Why they did so, who knows.

 

Yes, I've been seeing those squadrons more active recently, the last time I remember a game letting it run on so much like this was Modern Warfare 3 where they had aimbot clans.  Thank goodness aimbots and most hacks aren't in this game, they'd all be using them.

[Caralampio 90]

Now that they have placed the spawns way back on the maps, it could be easier to create these no fly zones we're talking about. However I've been thinking, perhaps they could also be abused by the local team, for climbing safely to insane altitudes. SO maybe it would have to be no fly for enemies, kick out of safe zone if you stay too long for friendlies.

[Lexing_ 241]

15 hours ago, Caralampio said:

Now that they have placed the spawns way back on the maps, it could be easier to create these no fly zones we're talking about. However I've been thinking, perhaps they could also be abused by the local team, for climbing safely to insane altitudes. SO maybe it would have to be no fly for enemies, kick out of safe zone if you stay too long for friendlies.

That sounds like an incredibly complicated solution for an issue that could be resolved through a bit of teamwork. Get 2-3 teammates and spawn in at the same time, then shallow dive in different directions. The camper has to pick one guy to chase kill, so the others get energy in the meantime. And then you can 2v1/3v1 the camper at equal energy states. 

Just to clarify, I am not in favor of spawn camping. Do I do it? Yes, because frankly, camping is the only way a fighter will have any sort of impact on the match. Furballing can get kills, but by the time you kill the attackers they would have already dropped their load. The whole point of camping is to cut off the flow of bombs and rockets to the objectives by shooting down planes as quickly as possible, and it is merely easier to do so by positioning oneself near the spawn. Do you ever wonder why campers tend to attack bombers first before the fighters? because bombers pose a greater threat to the game and are coincidentally easier to finish off than fighters are. 

[anyuser 5,136]

15 hours ago, Caralampio said:

Now that they have placed the spawns way back on the maps, it could be easier to create these no fly zones we're talking about. However I've been thinking, perhaps they could also be abused by the local team, for climbing safely to insane altitudes. SO maybe it would have to be no fly for enemies, kick out of safe zone if you stay too long for friendlies.

So, the spawn is a no fly zone for both teams, including the team that spawns there.

Are we already at the point where it starts to sound to strange to bother?

28 minutes ago, Lexing_ said:

The whole point of camping is to cut off the flow of bombs and rockets to the objectives by shooting down planes as quickly as possible,

This, you are my priority target when you start out with ground weapons.

Simply because we got way to few GTs for the amount of planes a team can spit out. Before they changed to the current system it was like 1 to 3 hard groundtargets for every player to end the match. With 5 spawns...

 

And later on in the match when you have shown that you will use them. Many US planes out there that do spawn with max load - and start to turnfight the next best enemy.